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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Another form of proof that GameTrailers is not neutral

iclim4 on 15 January 2008
twesterm said:
MrMafoo said:
darconi said:
hell, the PS3 doesn't even come with an HDMI cable, if i recall, it only comes with composite doesn't it? So its a completely fair comparison.

Ok, have to call you out for total fanboy craziness here :p

The PS3 doesn't come with a display device, so we should not compare visuals.

The PS3 doesn't come with speakers, so we should not compare audio.

The PS3 does not come with two contolers, so we should never compare multiplayer games.

Come on... buy a 5 dollar cable and get over it.


 No, the PS3 coming with the standard cables is in fact shit.  They advertise it as the big HD machine that displays in beautiful HD power, they use their snake in the grass technique to sneak BluRay into your home, and you're not telling me you're not upset you had to buy cables for your system?

I can understand not putting HDMI cables in the box, but not even putting  component cables in the box is shit.


i have to agree, cheap hdmi cables would have sufficed.
the system is worth 400 dollars for crying out loud.




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azrm2k on 15 January 2008
iclim4 said:
azrm2k said:

You are not wrong, iclim4 is grasping at straws here.

iclim4: Your analogy of using SDTV comparisons is misleading. Comparing SDTV 360 footage to SDTV PS3 footage, while technically fair since both are equally watered down, is futile as both are intentionally handicapped beyond their recording capabilities. You can't make a comparison video of graphics and decide to intentionally cripple them for fun and say it's still an accurate portrayal of their graphical capabilities. And before you try to take that line and throw it back at me please be reasonable and actually read the rest of my argument, otherwise don't expect any response you have to be taken seriously.

The difference when using component cables instead of HDMI cables is that they aren't 'intentionally' crippling the footage in any way. HDMI footage can't be captured unless they are using a debugging system procured from Sony as part of the developers kit. I'm not sure if GT doesn't feel like forking out thousands for a debugging kit or if Sony decided game review sites can't have them as they aren't developing games per se but the end result is that they are forced to at best use component footage and therefore they are comparing the games with the highest quality image that they possibly can and have both systems at equal settings.

not really grasping, i was seriously asking a question on how they captured the ps3 vid.
its more of a theory thing..

"It's not misleading as you state and the notion that they shouldn't even post comparison videos is idiotic. There are many graphical issues that people can observe from these comparison videos to make a purchasing decision that aren't affected at all by enabling Full RGB or Super White such as framerate issues or in the case of the Orange Box video the loading times. Therefore they do still serve a purpose and I can easily understand why they state the videos are there to help inform customers. "

i guess im an idiot according to you then.....

im guessing that you havent seen their comparison videos...

heres one
http://www.gametrailers.com/player/28006.html

and guess what GT's comment says


"Which system gets the graphical short end of the stick?"

thats right, they dont care about loading times and framerate issues.

fyi the ps3 version doesnt really look like that it actually looks exactly like the Xbox version(in my eyes atleast), i think this video is what sparked this whole ordeal in the first place.

 


 I have seen the comparison videos before including that AC one and you're right that they didn't speak at all about loading or framerate issues, the framerate issues was just a theoretical example and the loading time was based off of an Orange Box comparison video I saw of Portal.  The thing is though the 'washed out' look in that video is quite striking and easily noticable to anybody.  The only evidence I have been shown that enabling Full RGB can help with component inputs is ssj12's testimony that with his own eyes he sees 'a minor improvement'.  Therefore since they used component cables for both I have a hard time believing that the 360 version looking far better was due to the 360 enabling Full RGB with component cables and them not bothering to enable it for the PS3. 

If anybody can actually find evidence that component cables can utilize Full RGB for such a graphical advantage then I will gladly admit I was wrong but everything from Sony's PS3 manual to all forum threads I can find state otherwise. 



MrMafoo on 15 January 2008
twesterm said:
MrMafoo said:
darconi said:
hell, the PS3 doesn't even come with an HDMI cable, if i recall, it only comes with composite doesn't it? So its a completely fair comparison.

Ok, have to call you out for total fanboy craziness here :p

The PS3 doesn't come with a display device, so we should not compare visuals.

The PS3 doesn't come with speakers, so we should not compare audio.

The PS3 does not come with two contolers, so we should never compare multiplayer games.

Come on... buy a 5 dollar cable and get over it.


 No, the PS3 coming with the standard cables is in fact shit.  They advertise it as the big HD machine that displays in beautiful HD power, they use their snake in the grass technique to sneak BluRay into your home, and you're not telling me you're not upset you had to buy cables for your system?

I can understand not putting HDMI cables in the box, but not even putting  component cables in the box is shit.


I needed a 14 foot HDMI cable. Whatever they would have provided, I would have thrown away (Just like I did with the 360).

And they did not "sneak" BluRay into the system, it was plastered all over the damn thing :). Thank god for it too, I use it as a BR player 4 times a week.

I don't get all the hate. If you don't like it becuse it cost to much for what you get, then wait until it cost less and stop bitching about it. I mean, if you can drop $400-$600 dollars on a gamming system, and another 2-3k on a Audio/Video system to take advantge of it, who gives a shits ass about a 5 dollar cable?

I think everyone who bitches about it is a 360 fanboy who just uses it as another arguing point, it's not a reality that anyone who bought a PS3 cares.

 

Oh and @azrm2k

I don't care about the stupid comparison videos. I have stated that in this post already. They are meaningless. I wasn't saying that the PS3 is being slighted because of not using HDMI. 



Kasz216 on 15 January 2008
ssj12 said:
azrm2k said:
Rath said:

No because you can't set RBG to full unless you are using HDMI I believe.

(I could be completely wrong on this one however)


You are not wrong, iclim4 is grasping at straws here.

iclim4: Your analogy of using SDTV comparisons is misleading. Comparing SDTV 360 footage to SDTV PS3 footage, while technically fair since both are equally watered down, is futile as both are intentionally handicapped beyond their recording capabilities. You can't make a comparison video of graphics and decide to intentionally cripple them for fun and say it's still an accurate portrayal of their graphical capabilities. And before you try to take that line and throw it back at me please be reasonable and actually read the rest of my argument, otherwise don't expect any response you have to be taken seriously.

The difference when using component cables instead of HDMI cables is that they aren't 'intentionally' crippling the footage in any way. HDMI footage can't be captured unless they are using a debugging system procured from Sony as part of the developers kit. I'm not sure if GT doesn't feel like forking out thousands for a debugging kit or if Sony decided game review sites can't have them as they aren't developing games per se but the end result is that they are forced to at best use component footage and therefore they are comparing the games with the highest quality image that they possibly can and have both systems at equal settings.

It's not misleading as you state and the notion that they shouldn't even post comparison videos is idiotic. There are many graphical issues that people can observe from these comparison videos to make a purchasing decision that aren't affected at all by enabling Full RGB or Super White such as framerate issues or in the case of the Orange Box video the loading times. Therefore they do still serve a purpose and I can easily understand why they state the videos are there to help inform customers.

@ssj12: Any evidence that component gives even the limited boost to the RGB signal that you state? Everything I can find states the contrary. Infact as far as I can tell HDMI 1.3 is required to take advantage of superwhite. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XvYCC (XvYCC is the internation terminology used for the technology Super White takes advantage of as stated by Sony at http://manuals.playstation.net/document/en/ps3/current/settings/superwhite.html)

@mars: You can't honestly be serious and assume that they are using component cables because of the 360 even after everything that's been stated in the last two pages. Unless you are a joke account ala SDF please try reading past the OP before you post.


im basing off my own eyes. I see a minor improvement in the colors with both on. Its marginal but I believe there is something.


 Marginal or mental, as in all in your head?  It's quite possible it's all in your head.

They've done plenty of tests where they've told people the colors will be different, and they see them as different however infact they are exactly the same.

It's more likely you THINK there is a difference but there really isn't. 



iclim4 on 15 January 2008
azrm2k said:
iclim4 said:

not really grasping, i was seriously asking a question on how they captured the ps3 vid.
its more of a theory thing..

"It's not misleading as you state and the notion that they shouldn't even post comparison videos is idiotic. There are many graphical issues that people can observe from these comparison videos to make a purchasing decision that aren't affected at all by enabling Full RGB or Super White such as framerate issues or in the case of the Orange Box video the loading times. Therefore they do still serve a purpose and I can easily understand why they state the videos are there to help inform customers. "

i guess im an idiot according to you then.....

im guessing that you havent seen their comparison videos...

heres one
http://www.gametrailers.com/player/28006.html

and guess what GT's comment says


"Which system gets the graphical short end of the stick?"

thats right, they dont care about loading times and framerate issues.

fyi the ps3 version doesnt really look like that it actually looks exactly like the Xbox version(in my eyes atleast), i think this video is what sparked this whole ordeal in the first place.

 


 I have seen the comparison videos before including that AC one and you're right that they didn't speak at all about loading or framerate issues, the framerate issues was just a theoretical example and the loading time was based off of an Orange Box comparison video I saw of Portal.  The thing is though the 'washed out' look in that video is quite striking and easily noticable to anybody.  The only evidence I have been shown that enabling Full RGB can help with component inputs is ssj12's testimony that with his own eyes he sees 'a minor improvement'.  Therefore since they used component cables for both I have a hard time believing that the 360 version looking far better was due to the 360 enabling Full RGB with component cables and them not bothering to enable it for the PS3. 

If anybody can actually find evidence that component cables can utilize Full RGB for such a graphical advantage then I will gladly admit I was wrong but everything from Sony's PS3 manual to all forum threads I can find state otherwise. 


so you agree that my comments stand then? (bottom quote)
since GT talked nothing about framerate issues and loading times and the video was in no way accurately informative.
and customers dont need to pay the premium $10,250 to be able to use HDMI cables.
which would mean GT should not hold useless half assed comparison videos.....

iclim4 said:

"We create them so that people who own both systems can be a little more informed on which version to buy."

yeah those are all lies then..
they claim that its to inform but a lot of people are using HDMI cable especially the ones who visit their site.

"We don't create these videos for the fanboys. That's not the point. "

if they know that they cant capture the videos using HDMI then why release comparison vids at all? 
the only reason they would release half assed comparison videos is to incite fanboy wars, not inform the people.




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sieanr on 15 January 2008
ssj12 said:
actually I realized that RGB is a default setting if your TV supports it. Which actually proves that they dont use the correct TV as 70% of all HD-TVs now support RGB Full.

Ahahahahaha

You think they use a TV to get the video off the PS3? Everything is done by a capture card, so what sort of TV they have is meaningless.

ssj12 said: Super White is a bit hard to understand as there is no PC settings for it so I cant really explain it very well.Super White is basically a cleaner white color that has no extra color then whats needed for white to be created.

Absoloute white is 255 Red, 255 G and 255 B, so I don't see where you can come up with "clearer white color that has no extra color". This makes me think that you're one of those "non-techie or graphics guys", or atleat a person who thinks they understand what they're talking about when you really don't.

Really, you're explanation makes no sense. 

But I digress..

For starters Super White is a feature that is only in action on Bluray videos. It does not come into play at all with games or XMB - any difference you see is completely in your head.

As for explaining Super White, its pretty simple if you know what you're talking about. Basically its a different color space that puts white at 109% of NTSC instead of 100%. Now my understanding is that there are no Bluray films mastered with Super White, but it is something most camcorders do by default and is likely the same case for Bluray camcorders.

As for HDMI can only use. Thats actually somewhat BS. HDMI is needed to get the full effect. Basically component will enable maybe a color range of 10 - 245 but not the full thing. As for Super White it makes whites cleaner but not as clean as it could be

Component is analog, so it doesn't actually have that 10-245 range. Again, this makes me think that you have no idea what you're talking about and means that its kinda funny when you start to lecture other people about technical details.

But again I digress...

Full range RGB is not going to change anything in component, this is documented by Sony. Once again if you actually knew or understood what you're talking about then you would realize that Full RGB isn't needed over Component - only HDMI/DVI and VGA. 

 

I swear we went over this same bullshit argument just about a week ago, so here is a simple summary of what I said then; Full RGB is a feature meant to compensate for the different ways TVs and Computer Monitors handle color space. Most HDTVs can only accept limited, and the ones that can accept full are set to a limited mode by default (often called "TV mode"). Because of this most sets will see detrimental effects to the picture, even if it supports Full, unless the suer changes their TVs setting.

The main reason its there is to compensate for people who set Bluray to output YCbCr because when you have you're set properly calibrated for that form of output it makes RGB look washed out, which Full RGB solves.

If you think you're PS3 games are washed out or the color is dull then you can do one incredibly simple thing to remedy this; change the settings on you're TV. The PS3 default output is perfectly fine and most people don't properly calibrate their sets - and yet people think Full RGB is some magical cure all when enabling it blindly is flat out stupid.

Both consoles are disadvantaged by the lack of HDMI cable being used but if they could use HDMI cable forthere comparisons both consoles would have a graphical boost (though not necessarily as high for both) so while it is not a perfect comparison it is still better than nothing at all.

if they know that they cant capture the videos using HDMI then why release comparison vids at all? 

the only reason they would release half assed comparison videos is to incite fanboy wars, not inform the people.

 

And here we see a common mistake - people thinking HDMI is superior to Component.

While Digital does have its advantages Analog is by no means inferior, and often the two inputs will look identical on good, well calibrated hardware. There are many things that HDMI could've done to make it definitively superior to any analog input, but the specification was rushed to market so the content producers would have a secure connection for HD material.

the ps3 and Xbox are different though, since they can play the games optimized, unlike crysis and the pc.

hdmi cables cost less than 10 dollars, so most people can buy one.
some people still use SDTV's that shouldnt mean that games should be reviewed using SDTV's.
heck you cant even read the instructions in AC if your using an sdtv.

should that mean they should be penalized for it?

 

I laughed

Sure, HDMI cables cost $10, but a good HD set - one that can truly show what these systems are capable of - costs thousands. Vizio and the other budget brands are not an "optimized experience" since they produce and inferior quality picture. So the only option I see is for people to use Pioneer Kuros, a set that cost around $4000 in its cheapest incarnation, to get an optimized HD gaming experience. Hmm.... thats more expensive than a good gaming PC...



Leo-j said: If a dvd for a pc game holds what? Crysis at 3000p or something, why in the world cant a blu-ray disc do the same?

ssj12 said: Player specific decoders are nothing more than specialized GPUs. Gran Turismo is the trust driving simulator of them all. 

"Why do they call it the xbox 360? Because when you see it, you'll turn 360 degrees and walk away" 

iclim4 on 15 January 2008
sieanr said:
if they know that they cant capture the videos using HDMI then why release comparison vids at all? 

the only reason they would release half assed comparison videos is to incite fanboy wars, not inform the people.

 

And here we see a common mistake - people thinking HDMI is superior to Component.

While Digital does have its advantages Analog is by no means inferior, and often the two inputs will look identical on good, well calibrated hardware. There are many things that HDMI could've done to make it definitively superior to any analog input, but the specification was rushed to market so the content producers would have a secure connection for HD material.


well care to explain why the ps3 version looks washed out then? especially when it looks fine on my set
i would think HDMI1.3 is well above component but its not being taken advantage of as of right now.

sieanr said:
the ps3 and Xbox are different though, since they can play the games optimized, unlike crysis and the pc.hdmi cables cost less than 10 dollars, so most people can buy one.
some people still use SDTV's that shouldnt mean that games should be reviewed using SDTV's.
heck you cant even read the instructions in AC if your using an sdtv.

should that mean they should be penalized for it?

 

I laughed

Sure, HDMI cables cost $10, but a good HD set - one that can truly show what these systems are capable of - costs thousands. Vizio and the other budget brands are not an "optimized experience" since they produce and inferior quality picture. So the only option I see is for people to use Pioneer Kuros, a set that cost around $4000 in its cheapest incarnation, to get an optimized HD gaming experience. Hmm.... thats more expensive than a good gaming PC...

glad i brightened up someones night.....
even a vizio would give a better picture than what they showed in the comparison vid.

anyway the crysis comparison thing was to show that the game would be able to run optimized, not in medium or low setting with Anti-aliasing turned off, and still running in 15fps.




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MrMafoo on 15 January 2008

I have said it once, and will say it again (only because this tread has gone on far longer then it should have).

Who Cares?

Is your CoD4 gaming experience worse because of GT? No. Do people buy a PS3 or 360 because of those trailers? No.

People buy a 360 because they want Halo, or Gears, or Mass Effect, or XBL, or any number of reasons that can only be gotten on a 360. People buy a PS3 because they want GT, MGS, FFX, Uncharted, R&C , and any number of reasons that can only be gotten on a PS3.

People... exclusive content sells console. Period. End of story.

All these videos do is allow fanboys to say "hahaha, look, my console beats your console". How about being a bigger man than someone who cares about such things, and go enjoy your chosen gaming system?



iclim4 on 15 January 2008
MrMafoo said:
I have said it once, and will say it again (only because this tread has gone on far longer then it should have).

Who Cares?

Is your CoD4 gaming experience worse because of GT? No. Do people buy a PS3 or 360 because of those trailers? No.

People buy a 360 because they want Halo, or Gears, or Mass Effect, or XBL, or any number of reasons that can only be gotten on a 360. People buy a PS3 because they want GT, MGS, FFX, Uncharted, R&C , and any number of reasons that can only be gotten on a PS3.

People... exclusive content sells console. Period. End of story.

All these videos do is allow fanboys to say "hahaha, look, my console beats your console". How about being a bigger man than someone who cares about such things, and go enjoy your chosen gaming system?

you do know that VGC doesnt really have fanboys,
and we dont really care which visuals looks the best, heck wii is winning...
were just arguing for the sake of arguing.. cause.. you know... were bored....

seriously though, were also debating if GT is still a good source for reviews and comparisons
and hoping to learn a few new things in the process.




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azrm2k on 15 January 2008

@iclim4: No I don't agree. Specifically with your assertion that the video was 'in no way accurately informative'. Any improvement on the PS3 while using HDMI cable could be similarly achieved on the 360 also using HDMI cables. The Elite has an HDMI 1.2 port which while it can't handle the lossless digital audio codecs HDMI 1.3 can it should be able to access the full RGB range on any HDTV that the PS3 can. I'll give you that superwhites can't be utilized with HDMI 1.2 but as sieanr stated super white has no effect in games and sony's online manual seems to agree with him as it states that video files need to be recorded in a specific color format.

From sony's online manual regarding super white

"When this function is set to [On], content from AVCHD-format video files recorded in x.v.Color / x.v.Colour can be played with a wide color scale."