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Forums - Nintendo - Where should Zelda go next?

 

What do you think is the best step forward for Zelda?

New Zelda for 3DS 15 10.87%
 
New Zelda for Wii U 66 47.83%
 
More remakes, please! 8 5.80%
 
Back to the second dimension 10 7.25%
 
Retro Studios for life 14 10.14%
 
Whatever Nintendo thinks is good 13 9.42%
 
Doesn't matter to me 2 1.45%
 
Kill it 5 3.62%
 
See results 5 3.62%
 
Total:138
RolStoppable said:
wfz said:

You are such a firecracker Rol, I find it humorous. You and Malstrom are very similar in your spicy, harsh, far-sided opinion on things and the way you treat others.

Considering those Ocarina tunes are some of the most memorable Zelda songs and also one of my favorite aspects of OoT and MM, I would definitely disagree with you on that one. I felt like it added a lot more spirit to the game. If you can just teleport anywhere you want anytime (like Twilight Princess) I would feel like it really takes away a certain element of magic and spice to the game. The Zelda overworlds are never very huge and hardly require much backtracking compared to more open world RPGs like Xenoblade chronicles, so I think the model used in MM and OoT work perfectly fine. 

Oh and those save statues from MM acted as quick travel points. Yeah yeah, you had to play a single song to pick one to fly to, but it was more similar to the idea you seem keen on.

The only reason why these songs are so memorable is because you have to play them repeatedly and listen to them. Quick travel was already better solved in the original Zelda and ALttP.

And Majora's Mask could have used at least one additional statue in each region, because the game was pretty big.

How was it done better in the original Legend of Zelda? The only teleporting system i can think of are those four secret warp caves. But those were very spaced out through the world and hardly easy to access. It's been years since I've played that game.. what have I missed?



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^The magic flute. Blow it and it took you to the next dungeon. You may have had to be in front of a dungeon to do that, I can't remember.



happydolphin said:
archbrix said:

You're still confusing the gameplay of different 2D planes (ALttP) with a fully realized 3D space (Ocarina).

The gameplay in ALttP still takes place on a 2D plane.  Link can go up and down stairs, but he goes from one x & y-axis plane to another.  Not so in Ocarina, where depth adds a z-axis principle and movement theoretically exists in every direction.

I understand what you mean, but do you see what I mean? Suppose for a moment that Link's items consisted of all the items in Zelda NES: sword, shield and all the other items, but there was not real important use of aiming the bow, and the game didn't permit you to extensively, it only gave you a moment to tilt the analog and that's it. No 1st person perspective, no latency, just items and enemies.

I don't see how the NES and that experience would be so different. Assuming the puzzles were limited to a 2D plane, I don't see really the difference.

I think you're starting to see what I mean. Get rid of the complexities 3D can offer. Now in a simplified 3D game dynamic, how could the experience be more NES like.

I know this all sounds like pussy-footing, but I just wanted to put it out there that 3D doesn't automatically say "Complexity", "Latency", but that such things were up to the developer to choose.

Another example. What ever happened to the knockback from Zelda I and Zelda II? Why does that all of a sudden have to dissappear when you enter a 3D world? what about the jump and stab mechanic, why did that leave all of a sudden? Because the worlds needed to look more believeable? But that isn't mandatory. Do you see what I mean now?

What it sounds like to me is that you're talking about eliminating some of the complexities that result in 3D games.  What you propose sounds a lot like the targeting systems in Ocarina and Prime that I mentioned earlier.  Instead of having to painstakingly aim Samus' shots at multiple targets, you can just click away with the auto-aim button and fire.  That's all well and good, but it doesn't change the fact that the game still plays inherently different in 2D from 3D; Samus and Link are still only targeting enemies to the left and right, and above and below them with the increments in between on a flat plane with an x & y-axis, not in addition to in front and in back of the screen with all of the increments in between in a 3D space as they are with a z-axis.  I will agree that advancements can be made toward the ease of gameplay regarding 3D games, but simply put, the two modes do differ, which is what makes each unique.  

The same goes for the character's movement; in 2D, Mario climbing a staircase of platforms is limited only by how far and high he must jump.  In 3D, the same platforms could be in a spiral pattern, which provides a difference due to the added depth.  Super Paper Mario is a great example, as you can switch the properties between 2D and 3D, but it's still essentially only one or the other at one time.



Okay bro. Before we put this aside, I wanted to say:

Mario is not a good example in helping in what I'm trying to convey, and I understand that the Mario 2D to 3D translation is quite different than the Zelda 1 to 3D translation. For Mario, 3D truly alters the gameplay movement incredibly. With the idea of Zelda 1 I was proposing as an example, the same plane is being used.

As for auto-aim, I wasn't suggesting that in the example. More like shoot where you're facing (like in the NES version), but maybe with a fun twist where you can depress the shoot button and it allows you to swing left or right to a degree without altering character position (where he's facing). Aiming up or down would only affect how far the arrow went and the arc of the shot. It wouldn't be intended to shoot enemies that are on a higher plane.

And Metroid to 3D vs Zelda 1 to 3D is too a very different comparison. Zelda 1's ground movement was alreay on a plane whereas in metroid it's on a line. The translations would be gravely affected by that minor detail.

Also, the jumping in Zelda top-down was there in Link's Awakening, so I wasn't all that far off in that fabulation either.

I'm trying to lay the groundwork to something, but I'm totally failing. What I wanted to say then is if gameplay mechanics can be kept true to the original in a 3D space, via physical and design restrictions, that what would be left to give it that Zelda feel is the sounds, the music, the silence, the odd size proportions, the challenge, the lack of direction and all other things that were, coincidentally, also lost with the transition to 3D.

What I was trying to say is that pointing the finger to 3D is blaming the usual suspect, when there is much more going on than just 3D. Alot of it going on in the developer's mind, great and wonderful things, but in the end things that made the world lose track of what, at its roots, made Zelda Zelda...



I want it to be more like...

Mega Man!!!

Hear me out: wouldn't it be awesome if you could choose which of the dungeons to start with? Kinda like how you can choose which boos to fight in Megaman. Choosing the dungeons in right order makes it easier cuz you're gonna get the right tools and weapons to complete the next dungoen faster/easier.

This would work nicely for the first few dungeons! If you find one too hard you just have to unlock the right tool in another dungeon. But to move beyond these first few stages you'll need all of the weapons =)

whatyathink?



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

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RolStoppable said:
wfz said:

You are such a firecracker Rol, I find it humorous. You and Malstrom are very similar in your spicy, harsh, far-sided opinion on things and the way you treat others.

Considering those Ocarina tunes are some of the most memorable Zelda songs and also one of my favorite aspects of OoT and MM, I would definitely disagree with you on that one. I felt like it added a lot more spirit to the game. If you can just teleport anywhere you want anytime (like Twilight Princess) I would feel like it really takes away a certain element of magic and spice to the game. The Zelda overworlds are never very huge and hardly require much backtracking compared to more open world RPGs like Xenoblade chronicles, so I think the model used in MM and OoT work perfectly fine. 

Oh and those save statues from MM acted as quick travel points. Yeah yeah, you had to play a single song to pick one to fly to, but it was more similar to the idea you seem keen on.

The only reason why these songs are so memorable is because you have to play them repeatedly and listen to them. Quick travel was already better solved in the original Zelda and ALttP.

And Majora's Mask could have used at least one additional statue in each region, because the game was pretty big.

It doesn't need. You have one on the middle of the region and one next to the entrance of each temple. Actually, Skyward Sword  has more statues than what it really needs. At least it could have boosted a little the challenge looking for a save point.

Knowing the team, they did the right thing as my suggestion could have ended into something more tedious.



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happydolphin said:

What I was trying to say is that pointing the finger to 3D is blaming the usual suspect, when there is much more going on than just 3D. Alot of it going on in the developer's mind, great and wonderful things, but in the end things that made the world lose track of what, at its roots, made Zelda Zelda...

I totally get what you're saying, and I don't mean to disparage 3D as an inferior game type to 2D.  Personally, I like Metroid Prime better than any 2D Metroid because of how phenomenally well that game was done, even though it existed first as a 2D classic.  It literally feels exactly how Metroid should from a 1st person perspective in a 3D space, but it's undeniable that the fundamental gameplay must be adapted to by someone used to the original.

In parting, I'll just elaborate a bit more on your example that Zelda remains on a single plane for both game types:

Imagine Ocarina viewed from above with a fixed camera, so that it appears exactly like ALttP.  In ALttP, if a Keese is flying toward Link from the right, it's going to hit him if he doesn't move or kill it.  It's simple to understand that Link swinging his sword will make contact with it, as they are on the same plane.  However, in Ocarina viewed from the same overhead angle, the Keese could in fact be up in the air where Link's sword won't hit it at all.  Now consider that it could actually be two Keese, one right on top of the other from the overhead view, when in fact in 3D space one is high in the air while the other is on Link's plane.  Again, this is where the depth of a 3D space changes things.

Believe me, I've thought about the transition from 2D to 3D many times, and how x & y-axis gameplay could exist unchanged in a 3D space.  That's why 2.5D games, such as Strider 2 on the PS1, can offer a flat plane of gameplay from a multitude of angles thanks to 3D graphics, but once depth is introduced into the equation of gameplay, things change.

There are hybrids though, such as Metroid other M, where enemies and movement exist both on a 2D plane and in and out of the screen, so perhaps these types of games will eventually lead to what you seem to be speaking of.



The first 2 Zelda games despite being very different from one another really felt like they were part of the same universe. They were both awesome. Zelda 2 is my favourite game in the series followed closely by the original one.

In my opinion the basis for the series were very well established by the 2 first games.

We could and should have 2 type of Zelda games for every Nintendo console (home consoles and handhelds).

A 2d version should just expand what was introduced in the very first game: a large world to explore and dungeons full of vicious enemies ( there is a lot more to the game than just that, I know).

Zelda 2 should be the foundation for the 3d ones: Heavily based on combat, very simple to undestand and effective level system, magic, the possibility of learning new moves, freedom to jump whenever you feel like, awesome boss fights, etc. All that with an overworld too, of course.



Like some others have said, If I were the game director for Zelda I would make the game all about the world, ala Zelda 1, Zelda II, Fallout 3, Skyrim. I would try to create a mainly nonlinear world with many places to explore. The game would have a stylized, colorful look closer to ALttP, Okami or Prince of Persia 2008. I would keep it light on the grays/browns and heavy on bright colors, like a watercolor painting. The game would have a leveling system like Zelda II, without scalable enemies. Like the first two Zelda games you would be able to go to parts of the map where the enemies are way over your head, but maybe you come back later and they are weaklings. To keep a traditional feel a few zones of the map would be blocked off requiring items/magic to pass.

I know this is just a pipe dream, but this is where I would take the franchise.



DanneSandin said:
I want it to be more like...

Mega Man!!!

Hear me out: wouldn't it be awesome if you could choose which of the dungeons to start with? Kinda like how you can choose which boos to fight in Megaman. Choosing the dungeons in right order makes it easier cuz you're gonna get the right tools and weapons to complete the next dungoen faster/easier.

This would work nicely for the first few dungeons! If you find one too hard you just have to unlock the right tool in another dungeon. But to move beyond these first few stages you'll need all of the weapons =)

whatyathink?

Sounds like the first Zelda game on the NES. You were free to go to almost any dungeon from the start. Though some of the dungeons you were not able to progress to the end unless you grabbed an item from another dungeon.