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Forums - Nintendo - Wii never maxed out?

gumby_trucker said:

finally found some decent captures that do the Rougue Squadron games justice:

*mod edit*


a few more here: http://mixnmojo.com/media/galleries/Star-Wars-Rogue-Squadron-III-Rebel-Strike-Screenshots


Indeed. These showcase this games graphical and technical finesse near perfectly. The only thing that can't demonstrate is the fluid 60 FPS frame rate and how much is actually going on at once in the game.



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lilbroex said:

When I say "maxed out" the console it means with all factors included. Cartridge and memory mapping limitations are a facts of the console. Technically, to my knowledge at least, the N64's super mode was never used in an actual game(maybe Rogue Squadron on the 64 but I'm not sure). It would cripple the graphics capabilities so bad that it was pretty much worthless.

Few games if any used both of the Saturn's processors.


I'm primarily talking about the graphical maxes of the system, not memory, cpu strength(aside from physics), storage limitations. We aren't taking this to ridiculous, potentionally possible extremes.  The games I listed are what I'm talking about in its purest form. Games that use all of the features that the base console has to offer.


Using all features provided by a GPU is completely different to "maxing out", especially now that many visual features are implemented through the use of hardware shaders. Now it's back to full shader features being utilised by GPU floating point capability. In other words, the more efficient the code set to the GPU is, the greater the "features" that can be implemented by the shaders.



lilbroex said:

When I say "maxed out" the console it means with all factors included. Cartridge and memory mapping limitations are a facts of the console. Technically, to my knowledge at least, the N64's super mode was never used in an actual game(maybe Rogue Squadron on the 64 but I'm not sure). It would cripple the graphics capabilities so bad that it was pretty much worthless.

Few games if any used both of the Saturn's processors.


I'm primarily talking about the graphical maxes of the system, not memory, cpu strength(aside from physics), storage limitations. We aren't taking this to ridiculous, potentionally possible extremes.  The games I listed are what I'm talking about in its purest form. Games that use all of the features that the base console has to offer.

Pardon me, the what?    Do you mean the microcode?  What the hell is 'super mode'?



The rEVOLution is not being televised

fordy said:
lilbroex said:

When I say "maxed out" the console it means with all factors included. Cartridge and memory mapping limitations are a facts of the console. Technically, to my knowledge at least, the N64's super mode was never used in an actual game(maybe Rogue Squadron on the 64 but I'm not sure). It would cripple the graphics capabilities so bad that it was pretty much worthless.

Few games if any used both of the Saturn's processors.


I'm primarily talking about the graphical maxes of the system, not memory, cpu strength(aside from physics), storage limitations. We aren't taking this to ridiculous, potentionally possible extremes.  The games I listed are what I'm talking about in its purest form. Games that use all of the features that the base console has to offer.


Using all features provided by a GPU is completely different to "maxing out", especially now that many visual features are implemented through the use of hardware shaders. Now it's back to full shader features being utilised by GPU floating point capability. In other words, the more efficient the code set to the GPU is, the greater the "features" that can be implemented by the shaders.


How is using all features provided by the GPU completely different from maxing out "the graphics". I'm pretty sure I specificed that I was talking about graphics specifically.

I'm more than well aware of what shaders are and how they work...



lilbroex said:


How is using all features provided by the GPU completely different from maxing out "the graphics". I'm pretty sure I specificed that I was talking about graphics specifically.

I'm more than well aware of what shaders are and how they work...


If you know the basis behind shaders, then you should be well aware of the difference between the GPU features and fully utilising GPU cycles effectively. Pretty much every "feature" is used in a GPU regardless. Whether or not the customised resources are fully utilised is what determines your "graphical capability". More optimised use of shaders = more ability to add visual features. I'm suprised that even needed explaining.

It's like asking about how to fully use features of a standard CPU. Are you talking in terms of hitting every arithmetic opcode at least once (using all features) or fully utilising CPU cycles for the job? One of these actually counts towards effective results. Can you guess which?

Your two sentences "I'm pretty sure I specificed that I was talking about graphics specifically." and "I'm more than well aware of what shaders are and how they work..." makes me believe that you don't fully understand shaders. Shaders ARE a manipulation of graphics!



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I'm still waiting for him to explain to me what Super Mode is for the N64.



The rEVOLution is not being televised

The President of Factor 5 actually said in an interview that the Gamecube's biggest limitation in their experience was RAM, and that the Wii's memory increase would've solved a lot of problems they had pulling off what they wanted.

He also stated that it's clockspeed increases over the GCN made "so much more advanced things" possible.

http://www.nintengen.com/2007/09/wii-can-do-lot-more-graphically-factor.html

Seriously, imagine 2x Rogue Squadron III? Even at 480p that would be jaw dropping.

Man, this is a like a Shakespeare tragedy or something; all the ingredients were there, the Wii's technical potential could've been reached, but now it never will be... :(



fordy said:
lilbroex said:


How is using all features provided by the GPU completely different from maxing out "the graphics". I'm pretty sure I specificed that I was talking about graphics specifically.

I'm more than well aware of what shaders are and how they work...


If you know the basis behind shaders, then you should be well aware of the difference between the GPU features and fully utilising GPU cycles effectively. Pretty much every "feature" is used in a GPU regardless. Whether or not the customised resources are fully utilised is what determines your "graphical capability". More optimised use of shaders = more ability to add visual features. I'm suprised that even needed explaining.

It's like asking about how to fully use features of a standard CPU. Are you talking in terms of hitting every arithmetic opcode at least once (using all features) or fully utilising CPU cycles for the job? One of these actually counts towards effective results. Can you guess which?

Your two sentences "I'm pretty sure I specificed that I was talking about graphics specifically." and "I'm more than well aware of what shaders are and how they work..." makes me believe that you don't fully understand shaders. Shaders ARE a manipulation of graphics!

Please stop... You are not informing me of anything. The Wii and GC don't even use standardized shaders.  I literally said that the way you max out a system is through optimization of its specific components. You are repating nearly exactly what I've been saying... Did you even bother to read my posts?

I avoid flagrantly using high level technical details when explaining about system components and features because I'm sure that over 90% of the people reading it will have no idea what I'm talking about and want them to actually take something from it. I'm trying to explain this in a way that most people will be able to understand. You are trying to sound as technical as you can, more than likely in an attempt to appear as if you have superior knowledge of the subject when the fact is that you just restated everything I've been saying in a more pointlessly complex and convaluded way for no apparent progressive purpose.

Clocks cycles are what make the GC's CPU nearly twice as strong as the one in the Xbox 1 and the Wii's CPU three three time as strong. Tell me, do you know about the 200 mhz ARM processor that runs things behind the scenes on the Wii? Do you know the effective way to implement anti-aliasing on the GC and Wii's TEV? Do you know the depth of programmability of the Wii's TEV over the GC TEV due to the doubled bus paths? Do you know that the Wii can output  1080p graphics if Nintendo removed the firmware restrictions on it? Do you know that the Wii's GPU uses 32 bit coloring depth where the GC GPU only used 24 bit? Do you know that the Wii and GC have programmable shaders and that have to be custom made and applied by each individual developer?

I can go into explitcit detail with every subcomponent and feature of the Wii. However, I'm not arrogant enough to do that, when I know most people reading my posts aren't tech expects. I'm not just trying to sound smart, so I'm not going to bomb rush them with technical jargon that I know they are not going to understand. This is not a contest. Please don't come at me with technical details again. Especially these two systems which I have been speaking on and explaing the details of for over 3 years.

 

Viper1 said:
I'm still waiting for him to explain to me what Super Mode is for the N64.
I meant the Turbo3D microcde that increase the amount of polygons that can be displayed by over 5 times the stand amound, but it was obvious that hardly anyone would know what I was talking about if I said it... I'm trying to explain things to people. Why would I use terms that I know they will not understand? I'm not a child just out of junior college who things he can make himself look wise begging questions and using explicit technical grammar syntax where none is needed. Using terms that you are aware that no one knows when talking to them is not a sign of intellegence. It is a sign of immaturity.
 
   

I meant the Turbo3D microcde that increase the amount of polygons that can be displayed by over 5 times the standard amount, but it was obvious that hardly anyone would know what I was talking about if I said it... I'm trying to explain things to people. Why would I use terms that I know they will not understand? I'm not a child just out of junior college who thinks he can make himself look wise by begging questions and using explicit technical grammar syntax where none is needed. Using terms that you are aware that no one knows when talking to them is not a sign of intellegence. It is a sign of immaturity.



lilbroex said:
fordy said:
lilbroex said:


How is using all features provided by the GPU completely different from maxing out "the graphics". I'm pretty sure I specificed that I was talking about graphics specifically.

I'm more than well aware of what shaders are and how they work...


If you know the basis behind shaders, then you should be well aware of the difference between the GPU features and fully utilising GPU cycles effectively. Pretty much every "feature" is used in a GPU regardless. Whether or not the customised resources are fully utilised is what determines your "graphical capability". More optimised use of shaders = more ability to add visual features. I'm suprised that even needed explaining.

It's like asking about how to fully use features of a standard CPU. Are you talking in terms of hitting every arithmetic opcode at least once (using all features) or fully utilising CPU cycles for the job? One of these actually counts towards effective results. Can you guess which?

Your two sentences "I'm pretty sure I specificed that I was talking about graphics specifically." and "I'm more than well aware of what shaders are and how they work..." makes me believe that you don't fully understand shaders. Shaders ARE a manipulation of graphics!

Please stop... You are not informing me of anything. The Wii and GC don't even use standardized shaders.  I literally said that the way you max out a system is through optimization of its specific components. You are repating nearly exactly what I've been saying... Did you even bother to read my posts?

I avoid flagrantly using high level technical details when explaining about system components and features because I'm sure that over 90% of the people reading it will have no idea what I'm talking about and want them to actually take something from it. I'm trying to explain this in a way that most people will be able to understand. You are trying to sound as technical as you can, more than likely in an attempt to appear as if you have superior knowledge of the subject when the fact is that you just restated everything I've been saying in a more pointlessly complex and convaluded way for no apparent progressive purpose.

Clocks cycles are what make the GC's CPU nearly twice as strong as the one in the Xbox 1 and the Wii's CPU three three time as strong. Tell me, do you know about the 200 mhz ARM processor that runs things behind the scenes on the Wii? Do you know the effective way to implement anti-aliasing on the GC and Wii's TEV? Do you know the depth of programmability of the Wii's TEV over the GC TEV due to the doubled bus paths? Do you know that the Wii can output  1080p graphics if Nintendo removed the firmware restrictions on it? Do you know that the Wii's GPU uses 32 bit coloring depth where the GC GPU only used 24 bit? Do you know that the Wii and GC have programmable shaders and that have to be custom made and applied by each individual developer?

I can go into explitcit detail with every subcomponent and feature of the Wii. However, I'm not arrogant enough to do that, when I know most people reading my posts aren't tech expects. I'm not just trying to sound smart, so I'm not going to bomb rush them with technical jargon that I know they are not going to understand. This is not a contest. Please don't come at me with technical details again. Especially these two systems which I have been speaking on explaing the details of for over 3 years.

Well, I am not a technical expert, but I understood lots of what you wrote because your tone was right, and you said it naturally, that comes across on the page. You should post more some of us WANT to learn.



curl-6 said:
The President of Factor 5 actually said in an interview that the Gamecube's biggest limitation in their experience was RAM, and that the Wii's memory increase would've solved a lot of problems they had pulling off what they wanted.

He also stated that it's clockspeed increases over the GCN made "so much more advanced things" possible.

http://www.nintengen.com/2007/09/wii-can-do-lot-more-graphically-factor.html

Seriously, imagine 2x Rogue Squadron III? Even at 480p that would be jaw dropping.

Man, this is a like a Shakespeare tragedy or something; all the ingredients were there, the Wii's technical potential could've been reached, but now it never will be... :(

I feel your pain, buddy



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