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Forums - Politics Discussion - Spain unemployment now 5m (22.8%), Highest in industrialised world.

Kasz216 said:
KillerMan said:
osamanobama said:
incase people are still confused... socialism doesnt work.

America wake up

Yep. That is why Nordic countries and Germans are so fucked with their huge unemployement figures and rising bond yields. Oh wait...

Although his gross generalziation is silly... it is worth noting that until recently unemployment had been a huge problem among pretty much all socilized nations... to the point of where such high unemployment was termed "Eurostasis".

The kind of unemployment Germany had in the 90's 2000's is the kind of unemployment that would of caused panic in the streets US wise.  Up until about 05.  German unemploynment was lucky to be below 9%.

As an example

http://www.newsneconomics.com/2010/07/crib-notes-for-g7-unemployment-rates.html

The one exception was Denmark, who while highly socialized had some of the most liberal (As in oldschool liberal IE Rightwing) labor policy laws in the world.  More so then the US even.

 

German Unemployment now tends to be low because there is no minium wage.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/19/business/global/many-germans-scrambling-as-economic-miracle-rolls-past.html?pagewanted=all

 

Socialism really isn't the issue when it comes to unemployment policy wise.  It's labor market liberalization that matters

What did you expect what happens when you "annex" a former communist country and change its form of government ?
recent numbers by muncipality: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Arbeitslosigkeit_2011-10.png



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Troll_Whisperer said:
mrstickball said:
'tis what happens when you have a rampant social welfare state without the economy to back it.

Hopefully they get their government spending and labor laws under control. Once they do that, I am sure they can make a strong recovery. BTW Troll_Whisperer, where did you move to once you left Spain?

I came to the UK when I was 18 to learn English, then decided to get my degree here and then I stayed longer just because I like it better here. I've never actually worked in Spain, but I've been working full-time for 6 years in the UK, even while I was studying full-time. I'm leaving soon though, I'm going to live in Japan with my fiancée in June or so.

And when was it that you began to rehabilitate trolls?

How come u liked it better in the UK than Spain? Just curious. If I was a spaniard I wouldn't leave Spain with such nice culture, landscapes and weather and stuff, including chicks.



Kasz216 said:
KillerMan said:
osamanobama said:
incase people are still confused... socialism doesnt work.

America wake up

Yep. That is why Nordic countries and Germans are so fucked with their huge unemployement figures and rising bond yields. Oh wait...

Although his gross generalziation is silly... it is worth noting that until recently unemployment had been a huge problem among pretty much all socilized nations... to the point of where such high unemployment was termed "Eurostasis".

The kind of unemployment Germany had in the 90's 2000's is the kind of unemployment that would of caused panic in the streets US wise.  Up until about 05.  German unemploynment was lucky to be below 9%.

As an example

http://www.newsneconomics.com/2010/07/crib-notes-for-g7-unemployment-rates.html

The one exception was Denmark, who while highly socialized had some of the most liberal (As in oldschool liberal IE Rightwing) labor policy laws in the world.  More so then the US even.

 

German Unemployment now tends to be low because there is no minium wage.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/19/business/global/many-germans-scrambling-as-economic-miracle-rolls-past.html?pagewanted=all

 

Socialism really isn't the issue when it comes to unemployment policy wise.  It's labor market liberalization that matters

Of ccourse socialism is not the only factor to consider but it can be an issue since market liberalization is determined by laws which are determined by the parlament. If you had for many years, like in Italy, left wing socialist parties and socialism-oriented labour unions going agaist labour market liberalization laws and sustaining unproductive government employees with excessive protections (to a point where getting fired is almost impossible) then, as a result, you have a very rigid labor market and very unefficient public services.



Kasz216 said:
routsounmanman said:
Greece is ATM at 21% (official) and still rapidly rising. And if the new austerity measures (economy killers I say) come through today, woohoo, we'll be no.1

Dunno why you'd think that.  Most of the "austerity" measures that were voted on today weren't really austerity measures but liberalization of labor laws meant to decrease unemployment.

Reduction of minium wage sucks sure, but it will only decrease unemployment.


You think that's an austerity measure that raises unemployment... try not being able to pay anyones salary.

It's not just the minimum wage. Pension cuts, Supplement pension cuts (fourth time in 2011!), estates tax increase (3rd time in 2011), VAT increase, Cigarette tax increase, unemployment wage decrease, etc

Decreasing minimum wage by itself cannot lower unemployment. Greece has so few factories and producing capabilities, who will hire all those people, even at low wages? Mark my words, these "austerity measures" WILL kill what's left of the Greek economy...

Some people have had their income slashed by 40-50% already! Stores and services have had their income reduced more than 70% (myself included). Can someone please tell me why we Greeks have it so hard while Portugal and Ireland haven't had so heavy measures forced onto them?

It's like everyone holds a grudge on Greece for some reason...



Mr Khan said:
routsounmanman said:
Greece is ATM at 21% (official) and still rapidly rising. And if the new austerity measures (economy killers I say) come through today, woohoo, we'll be no.1

Some of the Papademos cabinet resigned over the proposals, didn't they? It's safe to say the Greeks are determined to resist austerity

Wouldn't you if you already had your income cut by more than 40-50% already while our useless polititians got raises? You have to understand that most people here in Greece, know that we all had our share in our deficits, but only few bear the burden still, thus the riots.

And what would you do if aforementioned polititians did nothing for the best of your country? We have the strongest negotiation "card" in the world ATM. A Greek disorderly default could potentialy destroy the entire global economic system! Wouldn't you haggle more?

I'm not saying that we should blackmail the EU, but the measures could have been a bit smoother and fair overall. On  top of that, all of Europe tags us as useless, lazy and EU cancer!



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routsounmanman said:
Mr Khan said:
routsounmanman said:
Greece is ATM at 21% (official) and still rapidly rising. And if the new austerity measures (economy killers I say) come through today, woohoo, we'll be no.1

Some of the Papademos cabinet resigned over the proposals, didn't they? It's safe to say the Greeks are determined to resist austerity

Wouldn't you if you already had your income cut by more than 40-50% already while our useless polititians got raises? You have to understand that most people here in Greece, know that we all had our share in our deficits, but only few bear the burden still, thus the riots.

And what would you do if aforementioned polititians did nothing for the best of your country? We have the strongest negotiation "card" in the world ATM. A Greek disorderly default could potentialy destroy the entire global economic system! Wouldn't you haggle more?

I'm not saying that we should blackmail the EU, but the measures could have been a bit smoother and fair overall. On  top of that, all of Europe tags us as useless, lazy and EU cancer!

I don't disagree with you. While it is clear that change is necessary, the people all running around cheering "let's go austerity!" seem to forget what it's like to lose your job (or be like me, a well-qualified college student looking down the barrel of a grim fricking job market). There is a human price to neoliberalism, and that price always seems to fall upon those who can least afford it, rather than the well-off.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Kynes said:
I can assure you, the economy here is similar to a post war economy, the last government was the worst of the plagues, and the new one seems to be lost with the huge black hole they have found. We need a complete change in the system to a freer one. Spain is the country in the western world where you need more time and bureaucracy papers to create a company, most people here only want to be government employees, and the entrepreneurs are despised.

It's a very sad state of affairs we have here, probably I'll have to fire two of the five workers on my company because of the losses due to payments not done by the different governments. They hire your company in public offerings, but then they don't pay you in the accorded date, sometimes they pay you two years after the due date or even later.


That is very sad, and the same thing happens in Brazil.

The people don't want to create anything in Brazil, they just want public jobs, where they don't do anything useful and earn a lot of money. This way, they already started destroying the country.



Kasz216 said:
KillerMan said:
osamanobama said:
incase people are still confused... socialism doesnt work.

America wake up

Yep. That is why Nordic countries and Germans are so fucked with their huge unemployement figures and rising bond yields. Oh wait...

Although his gross generalziation is silly... it is worth noting that until recently unemployment had been a huge problem among pretty much all socilized nations... to the point of where such high unemployment was termed "Eurostasis".

The kind of unemployment Germany had in the 90's 2000's is the kind of unemployment that would of caused panic in the streets US wise.  Up until about 05.  German unemploynment was lucky to be below 9%.

As an example

http://www.newsneconomics.com/2010/07/crib-notes-for-g7-unemployment-rates.html

The one exception was Denmark, who while highly socialized had some of the most liberal (As in oldschool liberal IE Rightwing) labor policy laws in the world.  More so then the US even.

 

German Unemployment now tends to be low because there is no minium wage.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/19/business/global/many-germans-scrambling-as-economic-miracle-rolls-past.html?pagewanted=all

 

Socialism really isn't the issue when it comes to unemployment policy wise.  It's labor market liberalization that matters


Good post and Denmark is a great example of having both a well developed socialist state and a liberal labor market. When talking german unemployment quotes you should never forget the costs of reunification, though. After 1989 economy in former east Germany basically imploded - they simply couldn't compete. Since then unemployment in the new german states has been roughly twice as high (11.3% vs 6.0% in 2011) than unemployment in the western parts. (Check out this link: http://www.spiegel.de/flash/flash-12125.html

And I totally agree with the last line. A liberal labor market and a socialist welfare state actually complement each other in some ways.



Slimebeast said:
Troll_Whisperer said:
mrstickball said:
'tis what happens when you have a rampant social welfare state without the economy to back it.

Hopefully they get their government spending and labor laws under control. Once they do that, I am sure they can make a strong recovery. BTW Troll_Whisperer, where did you move to once you left Spain?

I came to the UK when I was 18 to learn English, then decided to get my degree here and then I stayed longer just because I like it better here. I've never actually worked in Spain, but I've been working full-time for 6 years in the UK, even while I was studying full-time. I'm leaving soon though, I'm going to live in Japan with my fiancée in June or so.

And when was it that you began to rehabilitate trolls?

How come u liked it better in the UK than Spain? Just curious. If I was a spaniard I wouldn't leave Spain with such nice culture, landscapes and weather and stuff, including chicks.

Well, where I come from in Spain the weather is not that good, it rains much more than in London, though we also get many more sunny days. I like London because it is such a blend of cultures. This also has a lot of cons, but in here I've been able to meet many interesting people.

But mostly it's just a personal thing. I come from a working class family in Spain and my mum had no money to afford a flat so we were living with my grandma (after getting two degrees and a masters my mum finally got a good job and she's saving a lot now, but she works in Central America and has no flat in Spain). I lived in a quiet town in the suburbs of my city. I couldn't take that anymore, so I went for independence, and what can give me more independence from a previous life tha living abroad? The UK was the perfect choice because learning the language was an opportunity for me and obviously because, being European, I didn't need any paperwork to live and work. I came with 400 pounds with an Easyjet flight, and I'm happy of my decission. Now I am fluent in English, I have a degree in London, a lot of savings for someone my age, and a Japanese fiancée.

And now I'm ready to move on to something else. I guess I don't like doing the same thing for too long.



No troll is too much for me to handle. I rehabilitate trolls, I train people. I am the Troll Whisperer.

Wow. They are well and truly fucked.