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Forums - Gaming Discussion - I feel a MASSIVE change in the gaming industry

Smash_Brother said:
I see where Legend is coming from, but in the grand scheme of things, as the Wii's userbase continues to skyrocket, it won't matter if games sell to only 2% of the Wii userbase, it'll still sell as much as the PS360 version would and, with the drastically lower costs of development, it'll be a better investment.

I realize that the games are portable between the two (three if you count the PC), but you have to realize that most of these games aren't going to make their money back without breaking the million mark, and unless these are hyped games, the odds are that they won't make those numbers.

Take the Orange Box, for example: it's a game that's as "hardcore" as they come, and yet it has only sold 423,966 on the 360 and another 62,000 on the PS3 (with its shoddy, rushjob port).

It'll still do fine because the game's primary market is on the PC where it has no doubt sold the most copies, but it didn't even break a million between the two consoles and had it been developed with consoles in mind and wasn't a known franchise already (like many still are), it could have not made its money back.

Namco has gone on record saying that, in order for a PS360 game to break even, the game needs to sell at LEAST a million copies. That sucks. Most games never achieve those kinds of lifetime sales, making the risk of creating a game for the PS360 very high, even if you DO port the hell out of it, the porting still costs money to do.

As the Wii userbase continues to climb, the risk of developing a Wii game will drop. The Wii has the same potential to sell hardcore games, it's just that the majority of 3rd party Wii offerings have ranged from decent to total crap, hence why the games tend to sell poorly (and in some cases, still sell well, like Sonic Secret Rings which has 750k sold).

The situation you're talking about isn't a permanent one. The lower development costs coupled with a higher install base will push more games toward the Wii (it already is). The money will do the talking here and the Wii will never become any LESS lucrative as time passes.

In my opinion, Legend11's biggest mistake is that he assumes that because there are few announced high quality third party exclusive conventional games for the Wii that there will never be any high quality third party exclusive conventional games for the Wii; this is (of course) spurious reasoning and is akin to me claiming that I own a rock that keeps away terrorist attacks because I have never been attacked by a terrorist when I had this rock in my possession.

Realistically, you're going to see a ton of conventional games on the Wii as third parties begin to switch resources towards the Wii; right now developers are (probably) going to reallocate PSP and PS2 developers towards the Wii, and being that most development teams focus on certain genres or IPs it is likely that they will focus on the types of games they're good at. At the same time, Nintendo has opened a pandora's box with the Nintendo DS and developers have seen that a game (like Brain Training) can cost nothing in comparison to a conventional game and still sell tens of millions of copies (I believe Nintendo claimed the initial Brain Training took 9 developers 3 months to produce); this will result in countless low budget unconventional games being released for the Wii and the XBox 360 and PS3.

 



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HOW DARE YOU DIS ENDLESS OCEAN YOU BITCH!



Lol, wonder what happened to Legend11 with all the grim news for 360 sales?



HappySqurriel said:

In my opinion, Legend11's biggest mistake is that he assumes that because there are few announced high quality third party exclusive conventional games for the Wii that there will never be any high quality third party exclusive conventional games for the Wii; this is (of course) spurious reasoning and is akin to me claiming that I own a rock that keeps away terrorist attacks because I have never been attacked by a terrorist when I had this rock in my possession.

Realistically, you're going to see a ton of conventional games on the Wii as third parties begin to switch resources towards the Wii; right now developers are (probably) going to reallocate PSP and PS2 developers towards the Wii, and being that most development teams focus on certain genres or IPs it is likely that they will focus on the types of games they're good at. At the same time, Nintendo has opened a pandora's box with the Nintendo DS and developers have seen that a game (like Brain Training) can cost nothing in comparison to a conventional game and still sell tens of millions of copies (I believe Nintendo claimed the initial Brain Training took 9 developers 3 months to produce); this will result in countless low budget unconventional games being released for the Wii and the XBox 360 and PS3.

 


 His theory might hold water, if the Wii wasn't still pounding the competition in sales on a weekly basis.

The other issue is that games being announced for the PS360 now have been in development for at least six months, probably more.

 

When the 360 is at 20 million, the Wii will be at 25 million. When the 360 reaches 25 million, the Wii will be at 35-40 million.

By that time, the disparity in the install base plus the disparity in development costs will DEFINITELY make the Wii into a far more attractive option for development. The Wii will be the same low-risk console the PS2 was, where games will make their money back even if they're immensely niche (which is why games like Disgaea for the PS3 make absolutely no sense).

I realize that Legend is just defending his console of choice, but if he expects the trend to continue unabated, he's in for a rude awakening. 



"I mean, c'mon, Viva Pinata, a game with massive marketing, didn't sell worth a damn to the "sophisticated" 360 audience, despite near-universal praise--is that a sign that 360 owners are a bunch of casual ignoramuses that can't get their heads around a 'gardening' sim? Of course not. So let's please stop trying to micro-analyze one game out of hundreds and using it as the poster child for why good, non-1st party, games can't sell on Wii. (Everyone frequenting this site knows this is nonsense, and yet some of you just can't let it go because it's the only scab you have left to pick at after all your other "Wii will phail1!!1" straw men arguments have been put to the torch.)" - exindguy on Boom Blocks

I couldn't agree with you more, Smash_Brother.



 2008 Predictions:


Wii: 44 Million
Xbox360: 25 Million
PS3: 22 Million

DS: 90 Million
PSP: 37 Million
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Soriku said:
Legend11 said:
Soriku said:
Legend11 said:
HappySqurriel said:
Legend11 said:
HappySqurriel said:

I'll try to explain this to you ...

One of the main reasons Nintendo is so dominant on the Wii is because they're the only developer who has produced a high number of high quality conventional games; some developers (Capcom, Namco, Ubisoft) have started to notice this and are attempting to bring high quality conventional games to the Wii. The dichotomy you have produced in claiming that you have the choice between conventional games on the XBox 360 or unconventional (mostly shovelware) on the Wii is laughably false.

 


Really? PROVE IT.

Do the following:

1) Make a list of upcoming Wii games.
2) Remove all Nintendo 1st/2nd party games (we're really talking about third party games).
3) Remove the cheap crap/budget titles like Catz, Dogz, etc.
4) Remove the cheap spinoff games like FFCC, RE: UC, etc.
5) Remove the cheap JRPG games.
6) Remove the cheap minigame compilations.
7) Remove the cheap PS2 ports.
8) Remove the cheap movie/book/tv license games.
9) Remove the cheap quirky low cost games like Endless Ocean (oops that's Nintendo but you get the point).
10) Remove the cheap sub-$2million crap that didn't get removed by any of the previous steps.
11) Remove the multiplatform games appearing on 360/PS3/PC.

Now what do you have left? Here I'll save you the trouble, NOT MUCH.


Ok, prove to me that the XBox 360 will have any games in 2010 ... Wow they must not exist ... Confirmed XBox 360 is dead in 2010 ... So what is the XBox 360's replacement? ... Wow it must not exist ... Confirmed Microsoft is leaving the console market.

... To rephrase that, if you're not going to be inteligent and rational maybe you shouldn't post.

Most games released in a year are not announced years in advance; it is actually kind of shocking to me the number of XBox 360 and PS3 games that were announced before the systems were released that are now expected to be released in 2008.


I could list some of the new games announced this year for the 360 like Hydrophobia, Tomb Raider: Underworld, Just Cause 2, Deus Ex 3, Hitman 5, The Crossing, Prince of Persia 4, Saints Row 2, Earth No More, Shellshock 2, Command & Conquer: Tiberium, Dark Void, Project Offset, EA's Dead Space, Dynasty Warriors 6, Bioshock 2, etc to show that there are still a lot of very big games taking up a lot of third party resources that were either started this year or not long ago. Yet when I make such a list for the Wii the list of games like that is a lot smaller and that is not even taking into account the many games that I haven't listed for the 360 that we know are in development but have no idea what they are like THQ's big RPG for the 360/PS3/PC coming in 2009 or later for example.

I'm not the one that is arguing that things are going to change significantly so I don't feel I should have to be the one to prove anything. I think the Wii will get some great third party games along with all the shovelware but I just don't see it getting the majority of the kinds of games I've been talking about or that there will be a huge shift of such development from the PC/360/PS3 to the Wii. I just don't see it happening.


The bolded games weren't announced for 360 this year, nor any other console. Show me proof to back this up. And when was Just Cause 2 announced for 360?

http://www.totalvideogames.com/news/Just_Cause_2_Confirmed_10829_6279_0.htm


 

OK, but you made up the rest.

Well you already confirmed Tomb Raider: Underworld yourself...  Prince of Persia 4 is actually going to be called Prince of Persia: Ghosts of the Past and is being made for the PC/360/PS3.  Shellshock 2 is in production for the 360/PS3 and you can even go to IGN and look it up.  Eidos confirmed a new Hitman was in production earlier this year.  As for Bioshock 2, Take-Two's chairman basically said he sees Bioshock as part of a franchise but I guess you got me on that one and we'll have to wait for an official confirmation.

Here're some more games as well...  Just replace Bioshock 2 with one of these if you want...  Tom Clancy's Air Combat, Avatar, Assassin's Creed 2 (it's a no brainer), Wolfenstein (includes side quests, open city), Alive, APB, Dead Island, Harker, Silent Hill 5, LMNO, Alien, Precursors, Rainy Woods, Totems, 2 Days 2 Vegas, Rage...

Basically what I'm getting at is that there are a lot of games like this coming to the 360/PS3/PC next year and 2009...  I just don't see a huge shift of hardcore games happening next year to be honest.  Maybe Wii third party software domination will begin around the same time as PS3 hardware domination (who knows...).



Soriku said:

Because one system has one game and another has another doesn't mean one is "hardcore" and one isn't. They're the same thing.


Problem is, just because of the fact that they're on another system and not the 360, none of those games will matter in the mind of him or any other rabid 360 fanboy.

Bungie could announce Halo 4 for the Wii TOMORROW and suddenly the xbots would start in about how Halo isn't a hardcore series and about how bad Halo 3 was and about how badly it'll suck on the Wii.

That's just how blind fanboy logic works. It basically boils down to "I've made a buying decision on a particular console and now I hate every other console."

I have all three and I've enjoyed games on all of them, but I understand that I'm a rarity in that regard. 



"I mean, c'mon, Viva Pinata, a game with massive marketing, didn't sell worth a damn to the "sophisticated" 360 audience, despite near-universal praise--is that a sign that 360 owners are a bunch of casual ignoramuses that can't get their heads around a 'gardening' sim? Of course not. So let's please stop trying to micro-analyze one game out of hundreds and using it as the poster child for why good, non-1st party, games can't sell on Wii. (Everyone frequenting this site knows this is nonsense, and yet some of you just can't let it go because it's the only scab you have left to pick at after all your other "Wii will phail1!!1" straw men arguments have been put to the torch.)" - exindguy on Boom Blocks

Smash_Brother said:
Soriku said:

Because one system has one game and another has another doesn't mean one is "hardcore" and one isn't. They're the same thing.


Problem is, just because of the fact that they're on another system and not the 360, none of those games will matter in the mind of him or any other rabid 360 fanboy.

Bungie could announce Halo 4 for the Wii TOMORROW and suddenly the xbots would start in about how Halo isn't a hardcore series and about how bad Halo 3 was and about how badly it'll suck on the Wii.

That's just how blind fanboy logic works. It basically boils down to "I've made a buying decision on a particular console and now I hate every other console."

I have all three and I've enjoyed games on all of them, but I understand that I'm a rarity in that regard. 


I never said some of those games aren't hardcore I'm just arguing with the people who think that third parties are going to suddenly switch the majority of their hardcore games from the PC/360/PS3 to the Wii.

I've heard this same song and dance three times already, the first was before E3 when people were claiming it was going to happen then, of course we were then greeted with lots of hardcore games for the PC/360/PS3.  Then it was going to be the Tokyo Game Show where all the huge announcements were going to be made, of course it didn't happen then either.  Then it was before the end of the year and now it's 2008.

But I tell you what, I'm willing to make a ban bet with you or anyone about the things I've mentioned.  Take Game Informer for instance, they make a World exclusive announcement for a new game every issue, mainly hardcore games.  I'm willing to bet that their February cover will feature either a 360/PS3/PC, 360/PS3, 360, PC, or PS3 game.  If anyone I argued with is so sure of a massive change then there should be no problem with them betting that Game Informer's next cover will feature an unannounced Wii game.  What people don't want to take that bet?  Hmm, how about March then?  No?  'Nuf said.



Also, it's unwise to think hardcore games won't come to the Wii. Wii already has Tales, Zelda, Baten Kaitos, the Matsuno x Monolith RPG, Golden Sun, Disaster, FFCC (x2), Chocobo, No More Heroes, and counting.

 

 

Ok, I see all these niche, semi-casual games you posted... where are the hard core ones again? Or are you seriously going to compare Disaster to Call of Duty 4 or Bioshock or Mass Effect?

 

And seriously? A SUDA-51 game as a hard core one? Are you smoking crack? 



How is No More Heroes not a Hardcore game? That and Zelda? Get out of my thread if you're going to troll.