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Rumor: Xbox Scarlet Devkit is late behind the schedule to surprise Sony

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What do you think

To surprise Sony 10 20.00%
 
It's late because Sony ar... 9 18.00%
 
It's just showed Microsof... 7 14.00%
 
They probably just rebuil... 5 10.00%
 
Who knows 19 38.00%
 
Total:50
Mr Puggsly said:
DonFerrari said:

Many Sony exclusives this gen have been selling 10, 15 or even 20M. So sorry to burst the bubble, but this gen a big portion of people bought and played exclusives on PS4. And if that wasn't an issue MS recognize they wouldn't have bought so many devs.

Yes, thank you for proving my point. Even the most popular Sony exclusives are only played by a fraction of the userbase.

What kind of argument is that? Every single game only sells to a portion of the userbase. It's like saying "it wouldn't matter if PS4/XBO didn't have  RDR2 because it only sells to less than 15% of the userbase." It's just a ridiculous argument.

Sony's quality exclusives are a big reason people are choosing the PS4 over the XBO. Are there other reasons? Sure. And varies from person to person, but exclusives are definitely in most people's Top 3 reasons.



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thismeintiel said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Yes, thank you for proving my point. Even the most popular Sony exclusives are only played by a fraction of the userbase.

What kind of argument is that? Every single game only sells to a portion of the userbase. It's like saying "it wouldn't matter if PS4/XBO didn't have  RDR2 because it only sells to less than 15% of the userbase." It's just a ridiculous argument.

Sony's quality exclusives are a big reason people are choosing the PS4 over the XBO. Are there other reasons? Sure. And varies from person to person, but exclusives are definitely in most people's Top 3 reasons.

Again, "I'm saying PS4 has a bigger appeal than its exclusives."



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LudicrousSpeed said:
Technarchy said:

Increasing software revenue means nothing to the console consumer. That's fodder for executives wanting a bonus. As for Gamepass and Cloud, I'd debate if either represents a real selling point to the console market, given that Sony dominated this generation, and Switch will likely outperform X1 before the end of the year. 

In the console market content is everything; Sony has more of it, and it's better. Microsoft is dancing around this fact with business buzzwords, but without a shift in focus toward actual games Scarlett is doomed to being a distant 2nd or worse if Switch drops a hardware upgrade within the next couple of years.


Are you forgetting that Microsoft just went out and buy a whole stable of new developers? Talented developers, with a history of making good games? Exactly what "business buzzwords" is Microsoft using, lol.

Which in itself is odd. It took MSFT over a decade to figure out you need games for a game console? However, it's a move in the right direction and we will have to wait and see what these companies are working on come E3. I personally hope it's on the same scale of commitment and investment as Sony shows with their titles.



HollyGamer said:

Did that PC you mentioned has the same spec?  I bet that PC build like tower, has thermal more than PS4 and required a lot power wattage and high decibel sound.

Who cares, honestly? None of that was really part of the original argument put forth, thus making it a goal-post shifting logical fallacy anyway.

HollyGamer said:

Console did their job with limited  spec. the main point of consoles is running less powerful hardware to match or close the gap with better spec on PC. If there is some games not doing their jobs is not the fault of the hardware but game developer.

The point is. The consoles really aren't doing that anymore, not since console manufacturers abandoned semi-custom/custom processors.

The Xbox One X for example isn't doing anything I wouldn't expect out of a Radeon RX 580.

HollyGamer said:

Try google " Linux steam games run on  PS4 ",  The games run super slow on PS4 compared to the same multi platform ps4 games that release on PS4 and made /optimize directly to consoles.  

That will of course happen. It's called a "bad port". Doesn't mean the hardware is any less capable.

HollyGamer said:

PC  need to process twice because they need run windows and other programs while execute gaming API, while consoles only run game application.   

No they don't. Don't spread false information.

Let us take the Xbox One for example... It runs the Microsoft Windows 10 kernel, then a hypervisor with two partitions, one partition contains another software stack to run Xbox One games, the other for Universal Windows apps.

And of course it will run the Xbox 360 OS and OG Xbox OS as well depending on need.

The Xbox will of course also run Direct X 11 and 12 depending on what developers have opted for... And even has a low-level API.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_One_system_software

The Playstation 4 on the other hand leverages FreeBSD which is a PC operating system and runs with two graphics API's. Aka. gnm and gnmx...

Both consoles also have graphics drivers as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_4_system_software

In short, both consoles are using monolithic PC operating Systems, with PC derived API's, graphics drivers and more.
Which means the Xbox One and Playstation 4 are CPU and memory hungry, reserving 1-2 CPU cores and 3GB+ of Ram, which is much more than Windows 7/10 will happily run with.

DialgaMarine said:
This just seems like a horrible strategy for Xbox at this point. If it hasn’t become blatantly obvious, Sony doesn’t care about minor hardware differences. They’ve seen major success by focusing on developing quality exclusives and maintaining great third party relations. MS intentionally keeping dev kits out of the hands of third parties sounds eerily similar to Nintendo and the GC at launch. Pushing third parties away will only drive them to optimize their games best on PS5, and the better hardware will mean little. Personally, I think this is false fanboy hopes, but who really knows..

No one should care about minor hardware differences, the consumer won't notice the difference in a game... So it's more or less a problem for the developer.




--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
HollyGamer said:

Did that PC you mentioned has the same spec?  I bet that PC build like tower, has thermal more than PS4 and required a lot power wattage and high decibel sound.

Who cares, honestly? None of that was really part of the original argument put forth, thus making it a goal-post shifting logical fallacy anyway.

HollyGamer said:

Console did their job with limited  spec. the main point of consoles is running less powerful hardware to match or close the gap with better spec on PC. If there is some games not doing their jobs is not the fault of the hardware but game developer.

The point is. The consoles really aren't doing that anymore, not since console manufacturers abandoned semi-custom/custom processors.

The Xbox One X for example isn't doing anything I wouldn't expect out of a Radeon RX 580.

HollyGamer said:

Try google " Linux steam games run on  PS4 ",  The games run super slow on PS4 compared to the same multi platform ps4 games that release on PS4 and made /optimize directly to consoles.  

That will of course happen. It's called a "bad port". Doesn't mean the hardware is any less capable.

HollyGamer said:

PC  need to process twice because they need run windows and other programs while execute gaming API, while consoles only run game application.   

No they don't. Don't spread false information.

Let us take the Xbox One for example... It runs the Microsoft Windows 10 kernel, then a hypervisor with two partitions, one partition contains another software stack to run Xbox One games, the other for Universal Windows apps.

And of course it will run the Xbox 360 OS and OG Xbox OS as well depending on need.

The Xbox will of course also run Directx 11 and 12 depending on what developers have opted for... And even has a low-level API.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_One_system_software

The Playstation 4 on the other hand leverages FreeBSD which is a PC operating system and runs with two graphics API's. Aka. gnm and gnmx...

Both consoles also have graphics drivers as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_4_system_software

In short, both consoles are using monolithic PC operating Systems, with PC derived API's, graphics drivers and more.
Which means the Xbox One and Playstation 4 are CPU and memory hungry, reserving 1-2 CPU cores and 3GB+ of Ram, which is much more than Windows 7/10 will happily run with.

I am not moving goal post , are you trying to move goalpost yourself by accusing someone moving goal post ??? 

It seems you afraid admitted that tdp, thermal , and dimension of physics object is  part of HARDWARE SPEC 

The fact consoles is a close system is just proves consoles is still consoles period. And also PS4 and Xbox One are indeed made using  "semi" costume processor LOL

I am not Saying PS4  hardware is less capable running the games using Linux , it's just PS4 when running  Steam games a need to work twice using Linux. That's not the case if the games is using GNMX on PS4 which is the proprietary of PS4 low level API.

Again, you are using Xbox as an example, Microsoft has been using directX api evn in their consoles that's why Xbox is bad example on how console can do. 

Then you mentioned GM and GNMX wich is low level API, so you have been arguing yourself lol.  

Last edited by HollyGamer - on 09 December 2019

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thismeintiel said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Yes, thank you for proving my point. Even the most popular Sony exclusives are only played by a fraction of the userbase.

What kind of argument is that? Every single game only sells to a portion of the userbase. It's like saying "it wouldn't matter if PS4/XBO didn't have  RDR2 because it only sells to less than 15% of the userbase." It's just a ridiculous argument.

Sony's quality exclusives are a big reason people are choosing the PS4 over the XBO. Are there other reasons? Sure. And varies from person to person, but exclusives are definitely in most people's Top 3 reasons.

I think the reasoning is rather sound. I'd roughly estimate that 80-90% of games sold are 3rd party games. Exclusives are great and do add value to a console but they're not a sole reason why a person will choose one console over the other. My Friends picked xbox first this gen simply because I did despite historically being Playstation gamers (One has both now while the other simply just got a Switch). I'd even put price above it.



HollyGamer said:

I am not moving goal post , are you trying to move goalpost yourself by accusing someone moving goal post ??? 

Now you are trying to employ circular logic which is also a logical fallacy.
You aren't off to a good start here.
Two logical fallacies in a row.

HollyGamer said:

It seems you afraid admitted that tdp, thermal , and dimension of physics object is  part of HARDWARE SPEC

The PC has different operating requirements than consoles, thus making TDP, Thermal, Dimensions and so forth an irrelevant aspect.
And again, those aspects weren't part of the original argument put forth.

At the end of the day the Playstation 4 is not doing anything that I wouldn't expect a Radeon 7850/7870 to handle.
And at the end of the day the Xbox One X is not doing anything that I wouldn't expect a Radeon RX 580 to handle.

More than happy to provide more evidence to prove that fact.

It completely undermines the "console optimization secret sauce". - Which was once true before the PC got more efficient software (Direct X 12, Mantle, Vulkan, Improved Drivers, Windows 10 enhancements and more.) and consoles got more PC-like (PC API's, OS's and Hardware.)

I mean heck. The Playstation 4 still needs separate Ram and a separate ARM CPU just to handle background tasks in conjunction with the reserved Ram and CPU cores for the OS stuff. - And you think the PC is inefficient? At-least Microsoft isn't as wasteful in that regard with the Xbox, but still far from ideal.

HollyGamer said:

The fact consoles is a close system is just proves consoles is still consoles period. And also PS4 and Xbox One are indeed made using  "semi" costume processor LOL

If you want to get technical, the consoles ARE a PC. A PC being a "Personal Computer".

The Playstation 4 and Xbox One are derived from technology that AMD designed primarily for the PC.

The chips thus have more in common with a desktop AMD APU than not, that's the real facts.

HollyGamer said:

I am not Saying PS4  hardware is less capable running the games using Linux , it's just PS4 when running  Steam games a need to work twice using Linux. That's not the case if the games is using GNMX on PS4 which is the proprietary of PS4 low level API.

You need to provide the evidence that Steam games running on linux need to "work twice" (Whatever the hell that means!)

GNMX is basically a group of wrappers that sits on top of GNM to make life easier for developers, it's essentially comparable to Direct X 11 from a developers end point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_4_system_software#System

The more you know.

HollyGamer said:

Again, you are using Xbox as an example, Microsoft has been using directX api evn in their consoles that's why Xbox is bad example on how console can do. 

Xbox has a low level API. It's not all just Direct X.

HollyGamer said:

AgaThen you mentioned GM and GNMX wich is low level API, so you have been arguing yourself lol. 

False.



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Pemalite said:
HollyGamer said:

I am not moving goal post , are you trying to move goalpost yourself by accusing someone moving goal post ??? 

Now you are trying to employ circular logic which is also a logical fallacy.
You aren't off to a good start here.
Two logical fallacies in a row.

HollyGamer said:

It seems you afraid admitted that tdp, thermal , and dimension of physics object is  part of HARDWARE SPEC

The PC has different operating requirements than consoles, thus making TDP, Thermal, Dimensions and so forth an irrelevant aspect.
And again, those aspects weren't part of the original argument put forth.

At the end of the day the Playstation 4 is not doing anything that I wouldn't expect a Radeon 7850/7870 to handle.
And at the end of the day the Xbox One X is not doing anything that I wouldn't expect a Radeon RX 580 to handle.

More than happy to provide more evidence to prove that fact.

It completely undermines the "console optimization secret sauce". - Which was once true before the PC got more efficient software (Direct X 12, Mantle, Vulkan, Improved Drivers, Windows 10 enhancements and more.) and consoles got more PC-like (PC API's, OS's and Hardware.)

I mean heck. The Playstation 4 still needs separate Ram and a separate ARM CPU just to handle background tasks in conjunction with the reserved Ram and CPU cores for the OS stuff. - And you think the PC is inefficient? At-least Microsoft isn't as wasteful in that regard with the Xbox, but still far from ideal.

HollyGamer said:

The fact consoles is a close system is just proves consoles is still consoles period. And also PS4 and Xbox One are indeed made using  "semi" costume processor LOL

If you want to get technical, the consoles ARE a PC. A PC being a "Personal Computer".

The Playstation 4 and Xbox One are derived from technology that AMD designed primarily for the PC.

The chips thus have more in common with a desktop AMD APU than not, that's the real facts.

HollyGamer said:

I am not Saying PS4  hardware is less capable running the games using Linux , it's just PS4 when running  Steam games a need to work twice using Linux. That's not the case if the games is using GNMX on PS4 which is the proprietary of PS4 low level API.

You need to provide the evidence that Steam games running on linux need to "work twice" (Whatever the hell that means!)

GNMX is basically a group of wrappers that sits on top of GNM to make life easier for developers, it's essentially comparable to Direct X 11 from a developers end point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_4_system_software#System

The more you know.

HollyGamer said:

Again, you are using Xbox as an example, Microsoft has been using directX api evn in their consoles that's why Xbox is bad example on how console can do. 

Xbox has a low level API. It's not all just Direct X.

HollyGamer said:

AgaThen you mentioned GM and GNMX wich is low level API, so you have been arguing yourself lol. 

False.

What logical fallacy here??? Care to explain the reason 

" The PC has different operating requirements than consoles, thus making TDP, Thermal, Dimensions and so forth an irrelevant aspect.
And again, those aspects weren't part of the original argument put forth."

So now you admitted consoles is different from PC LOL 

This the evidence on how Ps4 turn into PC and run games like crap  because an OS like Linux https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rct6tHdN5No 

Imagine if it's able to run  Windows and run game using Windows it will even be slower , despite the games running well on slower consoles A.K.A Xbox One.

Wikipedia about GNM and GNMX 

" Another key area of the game is its programmable pixel shaders.[8] Sony's own PlayStation Shader Language (PSSL) was introduced to the PlayStation 4.[9] It has been suggested[by whom?] that the PlayStation Shader Language is very similar to the HLSL standard in DirectX 11, with just subtle differences that could be eliminated for the most part through preprocessor macros.[8]

"Sony’s own custom API is more low-level and definitely something that graphics programmers love. It gives you a lot of control. DirectX 12 will be a bit more abstract because it has to work with many different GPUs, while the PS4 API can go down to the metal,” he said. It is important to clarify and note here that Wolfgang's this statement does not mean that Microsoft's DirectX 12 is of no good. In fact he believes that the upcoming API will surely turn out to be great for the Xbox One console." https://wccftech.com/ps4-api-graphics-programmers-love-specific-gpu-optimizations-improve-performance/

Please elaborates why i am wrong, you did not help yourself here. I am done with your bias on consoles. You are not expert or even game developer, many smart people are not agreeing with your bias. I am myself a PC and console that never underestimates console nor any game developer has ever underestimates consoles.

Good day to you mate 

Last edited by HollyGamer - on 10 December 2019

Mr Puggsly said:
DonFerrari said:

Yes sure, because it is the same people that bought all of those, no way could all userbase have bought or played at least one of the exclusives.

Also very very very few games do more than 10M anyway. Will you claim that no one is really playing them or that they aren't relevant?

Lack of exclusives made a lot of favor to MS, really.

Your sensitivity about this is amusing.

I'm saying PS4 has a bigger appeal than its exclusives. As does Xbox to a lesser extent.

No you aren't and shouldn't pretend that is what you made when you go "just a part of the userbase plays the exclusives", it was made to downplay it.

But I would love to see these plenty of other appeals PS4 have over Xbox that justify it being over double the userbase.

Last edited by DonFerrari - on 10 December 2019

duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

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Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

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DonFerrari said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Your sensitivity about this is amusing.

I'm saying PS4 has a bigger appeal than its exclusives. As does Xbox to a lesser extent.

No you aren't and shouldn't pretend that is what you made when you go "just a part of the userbase plays the exclusives", it was made to downplay it.

But I would love to see these plenty of other appeals PS4 have over Xbox that justify it being over double the userbase.

I said in a different post the mistakes made by MS early likely played a roll in PS4's momentum this generation. 360 benefitted greatly from PS3's mistakes, right?

And again, PS4's lead isnt just because of the exclusives. They dont sell well enough for that to be the case.

Not sure what you really disagree with.



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