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Forums - Nintendo - IGN N-Podcast 60 and Summary - How Wii doesn't even compare to Current Gen.

cAPSLOCK said:
routsounmanman said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
routsounmanman said:
Do you guys know the meaning of ping? It would destroy NSMBWii online. It could be a 8-bit game and still lag due to slow ping.

I try to be up for learning new things. What specifically would be the problem?

Ping is the time required to respond to a call between the client and the server / another client. You can have the fastest connection in the world and still have very low ping, thus, when you browse a page, you see no difference from the person next to you with a 1Mbps connection.

Mario platformers require quick reflexes, thus low ping, response time. The network system is not fast enough for a game like Mario, or other split-second decision games.

I'll expand on this by saying shooters are a completely different category from something like a platformer, since shooters rely heavily on prediction in their coding since the days of DOOM on 56k.  Look at how the characters physically interact in NSMBW, now show me a shooter that has that level of interaction between players. Again shooting doesn't count because it's (invisible) projectiles relying on prediction, which also leads to so many "oh that's a bunch of BS!!!!" moments in online shooters. Compare local FPS gaming (LAN party or 4 player split screen) with online, you'll see a massive difference.

So it's a bunch of extrapolation, not collision?

Also, what about racing and fighting games?



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^^ Fighting games and platformers are the most demanding genres from a network standpoint. Thus, very few have done it well, and none perfectly. I think Ninty tried to implement such a feature, but they cut it altogether because they were not satisfied by it.



LordTheNightKnight said:
cAPSLOCK said:
routsounmanman said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
routsounmanman said:
Do you guys know the meaning of ping? It would destroy NSMBWii online. It could be a 8-bit game and still lag due to slow ping.

I try to be up for learning new things. What specifically would be the problem?

Ping is the time required to respond to a call between the client and the server / another client. You can have the fastest connection in the world and still have very low ping, thus, when you browse a page, you see no difference from the person next to you with a 1Mbps connection.

Mario platformers require quick reflexes, thus low ping, response time. The network system is not fast enough for a game like Mario, or other split-second decision games.

I'll expand on this by saying shooters are a completely different category from something like a platformer, since shooters rely heavily on prediction in their coding since the days of DOOM on 56k.  Look at how the characters physically interact in NSMBW, now show me a shooter that has that level of interaction between players. Again shooting doesn't count because it's (invisible) projectiles relying on prediction, which also leads to so many "oh that's a bunch of BS!!!!" moments in online shooters. Compare local FPS gaming (LAN party or 4 player split screen) with online, you'll see a massive difference.

So it's a bunch of extrapolation, not collision?

Also, what about racing and fighting games?

Well, a racing game is easy enough to predict, and if all else fails just go on times. Mario Kart Wii, in spite of what's goin on, is insanely easy to predict. Think about it, a vehicle doesn't move suddenly in 1 direction, it goes forward and turns, there's no sidestepping cars or karts in any racing game.

Now fighting games, I imagine those are pure hell to code online for.

I did find this, though:

Been thinking about the comments on how a deep fighting game like Virtua Fighter couldn't be done online due to the latency issues.

"Well, I'm not a programmer, but I thought about the characteristics a bit versus a traditional 8-16+ player game (say, FPS or racing).

-A fighter would be 1 on 1, and would thus allow a larger packet stream per player (say, 10-15k) versus an FPS which tries to keep each box under 5k or so.
-Generally speaking, barring bad routing, typical p2p broadband anywhere in North America is ~100ms ping time. Could there be more aggressive pushlatency to drive this down to ~30ms?
-Many FPSs rely on hitscan characteristics for gameplay (counterstrike, ghost recon, some unreal weapons), whereas a fighter is based upon effective collision detection. Is this a problem?
-Would this larger theoretical 10-15k/sec network code be useful for driving down effective latencies and creating more advanced prediction?"

and

"I'm sure good netcode can greatly compensate for latency in a fighting game. Unlike a FPS, where the majority of weapons are hitscan, any move in a fighting game takes a short while to pull off. If it takes your character 600 ms to kick someone, and your latency is 100 ms, good prediction should take care of it with no problem. Slower paced fighting games such as OMF (one of the few playable Internet fighting games) are surprisingly tolerant of lag. It's probably not as bad as a Firearms or Day of Defeat, with all hitscan, highly lethal weapons and fast movement speed..."

 

So I guess the question is, what can you predict when playing a platformer? Especially one with 4 people bouncing off each other constantly? Fighting games I think would be a bit of a problem, but I also wonder how good they are online.



psrock said:
The_vagabond7 said:

There is only one of two possibilities with the wii.

Either (A)The wii isn't directly competing with the PS360. It intentionally is a side step to target a different market, and has little to do with the original gaming market that the PS360 attempt to continue to tap like conventional consoles in the past.

or (B) The wii is attempting to directly compete with the PS360. It tries to have it's cake and eat it too. It wants the new market of freshly inducted "for fun" gamers that don't take it too seriously, and also is trying to get the traditional gamer that listens to Videogame podcasts and has more than one Videogame website in their bookmarks to check regularly, and will spend more of their money and time on gaming than the former group.

If it's (A) then the wii is a smashing success. But the loyal Nintendo fans don't want to hear it called this, unless it is in the most praising glowing terms of Nintendo's Genius and various maelstrom colloquialisms on Nintendo's daring and foresight. Should some one say it's a great system for kids, and grandma, and something you break out for parties and collects dust the rest of the time, it is a condescending travesty and trolling. Even though the expanded market is kids and older adults, and new people who don't invest that much time or money in gaming.

If A is true, then it is no wonder the enthusiast press is very sour on it, they are not the market for it. And just like a food critic is under no professional obligation to praise McDonalds up and down for it's populace appeal, salty and fatty meals that many find tasty, and their competitive marketing to poor minorities, the enthusiast press is under no obligation to praise Nintendo up and down for taking alot of shortcuts, adding no frills, overcharging for a cheap product, and marketing it to people that don't play many videogames just because it's a success at doing that. The general populace can be satisfied with it and the enthusiast press can still call them out for them making an extreme profit with business savvy at the expense of the inexperienced, non enthusiast consumer. There is no wrong doing there, they are not forced to pander to enthusiast gamers who are also extreme Nintendo loyalists. And the new market isn't reading their website, and don't even know IGN exists.

If (B) is true then Nintendo has just done an atrocious job, and they should rightly be called out on it. If the wii is meant to compete with the PS360, then it is only fair to directly compare it to the other two, in which case it is overpriced, underpowered, and is missing a ton of functionality. The PS360 will both have motion control in some fashion next year, the wii won't have the same online functionality, horsepower, streamlined multimedia functions, ect. If (B) is true, it's not a different experience, it's a lesser experience. Even if you personally don't mind inputting a 12 digit friend code for every person in each game individually, and can't tell who's playing what without popping in different games, or calling them first to co-ordinate you gaming, the other systems offer something drastically better in their online functionality. If (B) is true then there is no wrongdoing on the part of the press because they are perfectly justified on calling Nintendo out on apathetically offering an inferior system.

IGN is calling it like it sees it. The ones complaining are largely just Nintendo loyalists that would rather have them cup Nintendo's balls while they are working the shaft. That's not how it works. They called the 360 out for it's terrible hardware, they've panned the PS3 for it's atrocious launch, PSN's constant game of catch up to LIVE , it's inferior ports, and stupid failures such as "HOME". It's not isolated to just the problems the wii has. I have a wii, I love my wii for what it is, but I acknowledge it has it's abundance of faults. I listen to Nintendo Voice Chat every week, and I didn't hear anything this week that I disagree with. Trying to say that the enthusiasts press's view of the wii is totally unjustified is just putting fanboy blinders on. It's a good system for children and grandma's to pull out every few months, but for people that actually play games (IE the people that go to discuss them on websites) it's got a host of problems that shouldn't be ignored. I can buy No More Heroes 2 on day 1, and still say that the wii has god awful online functionality, and is missing alot of features for the price it sells at. That doesn't make me or the gamers at IGN raging trolls.

post of the thread

Hell that was post of the gen! I am seriously amazed at how well constructed that was. The Red is just a dagger though to the unyielding Nintendo loyalists which this thread is so full of.



̶3̶R̶D̶   2ND! Place has never been so sweet.


C?



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The_vagabond7 said:

There is only one of two possibilities with the wii.

Either (A)The wii isn't directly competing with the PS360. It intentionally is a side step to target a different market, and has little to do with the original gaming market that the PS360 attempt to continue to tap like conventional consoles in the past.

or (B) The wii is attempting to directly compete with the PS360. It tries to have it's cake and eat it too. It wants the new market of freshly inducted "for fun" gamers that don't take it too seriously, and also is trying to get the traditional gamer that listens to Videogame podcasts and has more than one Videogame website in their bookmarks to check regularly, and will spend more of their money and time on gaming than the former group.

If it's (A) then the wii is a smashing success. But the loyal Nintendo fans don't want to hear it called this, unless it is in the most praising glowing terms of Nintendo's Genius and various maelstrom colloquialisms on Nintendo's daring and foresight. Should some one say it's a great system for kids, and grandma, and something you break out for parties and collects dust the rest of the time, it is a condescending travesty and trolling. Even though the expanded market is kids and older adults, and new people who don't invest that much time or money in gaming.

If A is true, then it is no wonder the enthusiast press is very sour on it, they are not the market for it. And just like a food critic is under no professional obligation to praise McDonalds up and down for it's populace appeal, salty and fatty meals that many find tasty, and their competitive marketing to poor minorities, the enthusiast press is under no obligation to praise Nintendo up and down for taking alot of shortcuts, adding no frills, overcharging for a cheap product, and marketing it to people that don't play many videogames just because it's a success at doing that. The general populace can be satisfied with it and the enthusiast press can still call them out for them making an extreme profit with business savvy at the expense of the inexperienced, non enthusiast consumer. There is no wrong doing there, they are not forced to pander to enthusiast gamers who are also extreme Nintendo loyalists. And the new market isn't reading their website, and don't even know IGN exists.

If (B) is true then Nintendo has just done an atrocious job, and they should rightly be called out on it. If the wii is meant to compete with the PS360, then it is only fair to directly compare it to the other two, in which case it is overpriced, underpowered, and is missing a ton of functionality. The PS360 will both have motion control in some fashion next year, the wii won't have the same online functionality, horsepower, streamlined multimedia functions, ect. If (B) is true, it's not a different experience, it's a lesser experience. Even if you personally don't mind inputting a 12 digit friend code for every person in each game individually, and can't tell who's playing what without popping in different games, or calling them first to co-ordinate you gaming, the other systems offer something drastically better in their online functionality. If (B) is true then there is no wrongdoing on the part of the press because they are perfectly justified on calling Nintendo out on apathetically offering an inferior system.

IGN is calling it like it sees it. The ones complaining are largely just Nintendo loyalists that would rather have them cup Nintendo's balls while they are working the shaft. That's not how it works. They called the 360 out for it's terrible hardware, they've panned the PS3 for it's atrocious launch, PSN's constant game of catch up to LIVE , it's inferior ports, and stupid failures such as "HOME". It's not isolated to just the problems the wii has. I have a wii, I love my wii for what it is, but I acknowledge it has it's abundance of faults. I listen to Nintendo Voice Chat every week, and I didn't hear anything this week that I disagree with. Trying to say that the enthusiasts press's view of the wii is totally unjustified is just putting fanboy blinders on. It's a good system for children and grandma's to pull out every few months, but for people that actually play games (IE the people that go to discuss them on websites) it's got a host of problems that shouldn't be ignored. I can buy No More Heroes 2 on day 1, and still say that the wii has god awful online functionality, and is missing alot of features for the price it sells at. That doesn't make me or the gamers at IGN raging trolls.

Option C: The Wii was built to make Nintendo money.................... Success.



 

 

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With regards to NSMBWii's lack of online, think about the precise platforming you get in 2D Mario games.

Now go and play an online enabled 2D platformer, like LBP. Marvel at the imprecise, floaty platforming on display which compensates for online problems.



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that was hilarious! I should visit Ign more often...




              

Lol IGN is going insane.

It seems the "hardcore" are showing their true faces.



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Gnizmo said:
I would admit this is true. My problem is I just cannot fully grasp how it could eat up so much of the system resources. The reason I am stuck on doubting it is Miyamoto's statements about never wanting to have online. He has more than enough swing to kill a feature with a single word. I am struggling to understand his motivation in trying to find out how hard it would be to implement online.

I think it's that NSMBWii has to render all of the action on-screen at once (online, it would be possible for everyone not to be on screen, but that would ruin the cooperative nature of it and make it all a mess), while simultaneously having to maintain the whole level (or a great deal of it) in RAM. Fighting games have to do one of those (all action on-screen simultaneous), while other online games have to do everything in a large world at once, but not maintain it all on-screen necessarily, so it has to pose the burden of both

 

My guess is that if they had wanted to, they could have *designed* the game with online play in mind, to redesign how it renders everything



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