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Forums - Gaming Discussion - David Jaffe hates his customers. Does not want used game sales to continue

Gnizmo said:
Mr Khan said:

Though i don't presume to speak for Avinash, i would say that there is a simple cost/benefit analysis regarding this sort of thing. Say a game is worth $15 trade-in value. If you feel that the value of the game to you is greater than what you could get in resale, you won't sell it.

It only shows that the current value of the game for them is simply $15 or less. This reflects nothing on the satisfaction with the purchase however. The reason I used my food analogy is because people would not argue that someone should be less satisfied with their purchase once the food has been consumed. Video games do not offer endless replayability. Not one in existence offers this. As such, it is natural for people to be fully satisfied so long as he/she got his/her money's worth out of the game. The notion that somehow every video game you purchase should be played forever is possibly the most ridiculous one put forth on the board. A line of games that could never be topped would kill the industry faster than anything.

Lemme put it like this. If someone offered me 2 bucks after I saw a movie at the theater for my ticket then I would gladly part with it. I have seen the movie, and consumed the goods so to speak. This is not to say I didn't enjoy the movie, or that I was close to less than satisfied. I could love the movie, but just not care to watch it again. Same with many books in fact. Why should video game be the only medium that should offer no diminishing satisfaction over time?

People sell things with diminishing satisfaction, and whyshouldn't games be expected to give endless replayability, many games retain their value for years and people hold on to them, just like with many movies and books, these are the iconic games the ones that rereleased years later and people talk nostolgically about, and just like with games, there are used book sales and used movie sales, and yet no one cuts the writers or directors in on those sales, why should game devs be cut in on the used sales?



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

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Avinash_Tyagi said:

People sell things with diminishing satisfaction, and whyshouldn't games be expected to give endless replayability,

Because that would kill the industry as people stopped buying new games. Perfect replayability would cripple new sales. I am not surprised you avoided my last post directed at you though. Any evidence yet, or are you still just making it up as you go along?



Starcraft 2 ID: Gnizmo 229

Gnizmo said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:

People sell things with diminishing satisfaction, and whyshouldn't games be expected to give endless replayability,

Because that would kill the industry as people stopped buying new games. Perfect replayability would cripple new sales. I am not surprised you avoided my last post directed at you though. Any evidence yet, or are you still just making it up as you go along?

Actually i responded to your post already, but I lknow readng is hard fo you.

 

Also it wouldn't cripple new games sales, it would cripple used game sales, new games would still be bought, but people would hold onto their games



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

Avinash_Tyagi said:

Actually i responded to your post already, but I lknow readng is hard fo you.

 

Also it wouldn't cripple new games sales, it would cripple used game sales, new games would still be bought, but people would hold onto their games

You typed a bunch of words after my post, but you did not respond to it. You addressed nothing I said.

There are X number of hours per day one can game in. If all video game are infinitely replayable then after so many games are bought X is filled permanently. If new games come in and knock old ones off then they are not being played, and thus are more valuable in the form of cash to buy the new games you are using to fill time X. Holding onto a game just to say you have it is something for collectors to do, and they are not close to the majority of the population.



Starcraft 2 ID: Gnizmo 229

Gnizmo said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:

Actually i responded to your post already, but I lknow readng is hard fo you.

 

Also it wouldn't cripple new games sales, it would cripple used game sales, new games would still be bought, but people would hold onto their games

You typed a bunch of words after my post, but you did not respond to it. You addressed nothing I said.

There are X number of hours per day one can game in. If all video game are infinitely replayable then after so many games are bought X is filled permanently. If new games come in and knock old ones off then they are not being played, and thus are more valuable in the form of cash to buy the new games you are using to fill time X. Holding onto a game just to say you have it is something for collectors to do, and they are not close to the majority of the population.

Actually I addressed everything you said, as I pointed out why people sell their games, because of how its value has diminished, you just didn't like how it disproved your argument.

Ah but you see that makes some false assumptions, first you assume that the number of people playing games would not grow, since as we've seen the majority of the world's population does not game, even if the number of games each person bought was reduced, games with wider appeal and eternal replayability, would draw in much larger audiences, more than making up for sales, secondly you assume that people will play the same games every day, even games with high replayability do not get played everyday, so bringing in new games would only result in the older games being played more sporadically, people would still play them but just not as often, a few times a month or a year, like with books and movies, I have books that I have owned for many years, and maybe read once every couple of years over, but I still buy new ones, in addition game consoles tend to be updated, so older consoles tend to get played less, I play my old nes games every now and then.  Collectors are different than people who keep something around becuase they like it and know that they will use it again, I am not a movie collector, but I have a bucn of old movies that I like that I keep around becauser I know that there will probably come a day that I want to watch them again, because I loved them the first time and know i'll enjoy seeing them again.



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

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Avinash_Tyagi said:

Actually I addressed everything you said, as I pointed out why people sell their games, because of how its value has diminished, you just didn't like how it disproved your argument.

Ah but you see that makes some false assumptions, first you assume that the number of people playing games would not grow, since as we've seen the majority of the world's population does not game, even if the number of games each person bought was reduced, games with wider appeal and eternal replayability, would draw in much larger audiences, more than making up for sales, secondly you assume that people will play the same games every day, even games with high replayability do not get played everyday, so bringing in new games would only result in the older games being played more sporadically, people would still play them but just not as often, a few times a month or a year, like with books and movies, I have books that I have owned for many years, and maybe read once every couple of years over, but I still buy new ones, in addition game consoles tend to be updated, so older consoles tend to get played less, I play my old nes games every now and then.  Collectors are different than people who keep something around becuase they like it and know that they will use it again, I am not a movie collector, but I have a bucn of old movies that I like that I keep around becauser I know that there will probably come a day that I want to watch them again, because I loved them the first time and know i'll enjoy seeing them again.

It disproved what argument? The one where I asked for evidence of your assertions? That is an easy argument to disprove. Sadly you still have not backed up one of your claims with any evidence.

I didn't bother reading your long winded explanation because, quite frankly, you just make shit up as it suits your needs half the time. Skimming it I see you avoid my statements directly, so I am going to bottom line it. If a game is still being replayed it eat up a certain amount of gaming time. Once all that gaming time is filled no new games would be bought. It is as simple as that. Once it gets pushed out then it has no value as a game. Address this point directly rather than dancing around it, and I will consider giving you a new response.



Starcraft 2 ID: Gnizmo 229

Technically I’m not going to argue one way or the other as I believe to a certain extent both views are correct. What I will chime in with is the obvious prevalence/accessibility of used-game sales that doesn’t affect the other industries as much, that have been called in as analogies for comparisons sake.

As MakingMusic has already stated there aren’t any other organised world-wide franchises at the retailer level, giving incentives on used-item purchases/sales, on a product that by-in large has no value/performance degradation (not personal), taking up the majority of shelf space, all at the same store selling the 'new' item.



Kantor said:
makingmusic476 said:
RolStoppable said:
makingmusic476 said:
theRepublic said:

That video Jaffe posted is awful. Let's go through a few of the logical fallacies.

If the only reason you are playing games is that you want to be able to resell them, you should stop playing games.
No one plays games so they can resell them. They play games for fun, or story, or relaxation, or to hang out with friends, etc. They resell games so that they can buy new games to play. If people felt that a game was worth what they paid for it, they would not sell it to try and recoup their investment.

Personally, I think that if a cheaper option wasn't available to play games, we would see the consumer pool shrink.  That would be terrible for the industry.

To better understand that first quote, you should read the initial conversation that started all of this. Basically, the other guy said he wouldn't have bought God of War if he hadn't had the option to resell it later.  Jaffe's response was that if you'd only buy a game knowing you'd be able to resell it later, you shouldn't be playing games, as you obviously care more about the option to get rid of the game more than the substance of the game

The ability to resell a game works as a safety net for the consumer, if he didn't like what he bought. That way he can get at least some of his money back, in case the game doesn't live up to his expectations which easily happens with hyped games among the gaming community.

I assume the other guy has been burnt by hyped games before, so it would be understandable if he would only buy it, if he had also the ability to resell it in case he didn't like it. Another point that could be made is that the money a consumer gets from reselling most of the time goes straight back into a new game. So if you take away the ability to resell games from consumers, there will be less games sold as a result, because there's less disposable money.

But that's when GameStop enters the picture, grabs you by the neck, and rips out your soul!

They convince you to get the Edge card when you trade in games, because this gets you an extra 10% credit on whatever you trade in.  However, this card also SAVES you 10% on anything used you buy!  That's when customers start avoiding buying anything new.  Suddenly they're trapped in this viscious cycle of buying used games then trading them back in, all to get the most out of their card!

That's awful!

Why the hell would anybody want to work in that place? Can you imagine if someone on this site worked there? If you do find someone, give him a piece of your mind!


The problem is that it is awful once you work there and see whats going on around you. We just can not change what they do. No one store can ever effect what the corparation does. I have worked there for a little over a year now. The problem is that every single person at my store is a hardcore super video game fanatatic. We love our games, all games, and we love our customers for giving us a job. We see the problem that has been in this post we have see them in every single post about gamestop in every single message board. There is not a single fucking thing any of us can do. The only person that has a chance to even sugjest a change is the District or Area Suppervisor, but those people are souless corprate gread demons with no real knowlage of what is happening around them. Ok not ALL DMs are demons but mine is. :D YAY 

Anyways getting back to the point. We hear every single complaint, every comment, every diss, every word about the hate for Gamestop, and for the policys. There is just nuthing we can do, and at least for me it hurts and IM SORRY! My store does the best we can to bend rules, be helpfull, and understand the customers. We actually fucking try unlike most Gamestops! Its a shame really, maybe if more employes understood there customers, and more customers understood the employes we whould never have these disscusions. I understand the frustration of $5 bucks of a almost new game, and we only payed maybe $30 total if that in trade. We need people to understand that not only is it garenteed to work or you get a new copy and we have to lose money because we took it back, but you buying that used copy is the ONLY reason we are in business or we have a job. We only get $5 on new games and systems as profit... THATS BULL SHIT!! No company could every stay in business if all they made was that little of profit. Well unless we sold the games from the back of someones car.. ROFL.

My point is please try and understand your local employes at gamestop, we are just trying to make a living doing something we LOVE! Maybe you can help all of us understand what small things we can do for you. Slowly the company might change to help support growth, instead of making the customers feel like just $$.



"Leap ignorantly to the defense of wealthy game company’s, who don't know or care about you!"

mwjw696 said:
Kantor said:
makingmusic476 said:
RolStoppable said:
makingmusic476 said:
theRepublic said:

That video Jaffe posted is awful. Let's go through a few of the logical fallacies.

If the only reason you are playing games is that you want to be able to resell them, you should stop playing games.
No one plays games so they can resell them. They play games for fun, or story, or relaxation, or to hang out with friends, etc. They resell games so that they can buy new games to play. If people felt that a game was worth what they paid for it, they would not sell it to try and recoup their investment.

Personally, I think that if a cheaper option wasn't available to play games, we would see the consumer pool shrink.  That would be terrible for the industry.

To better understand that first quote, you should read the initial conversation that started all of this. Basically, the other guy said he wouldn't have bought God of War if he hadn't had the option to resell it later.  Jaffe's response was that if you'd only buy a game knowing you'd be able to resell it later, you shouldn't be playing games, as you obviously care more about the option to get rid of the game more than the substance of the game

The ability to resell a game works as a safety net for the consumer, if he didn't like what he bought. That way he can get at least some of his money back, in case the game doesn't live up to his expectations which easily happens with hyped games among the gaming community.

I assume the other guy has been burnt by hyped games before, so it would be understandable if he would only buy it, if he had also the ability to resell it in case he didn't like it. Another point that could be made is that the money a consumer gets from reselling most of the time goes straight back into a new game. So if you take away the ability to resell games from consumers, there will be less games sold as a result, because there's less disposable money.

But that's when GameStop enters the picture, grabs you by the neck, and rips out your soul!

They convince you to get the Edge card when you trade in games, because this gets you an extra 10% credit on whatever you trade in.  However, this card also SAVES you 10% on anything used you buy!  That's when customers start avoiding buying anything new.  Suddenly they're trapped in this viscious cycle of buying used games then trading them back in, all to get the most out of their card!

That's awful!

Why the hell would anybody want to work in that place? Can you imagine if someone on this site worked there? If you do find someone, give him a piece of your mind!


The problem is that it is awful once you work there and see whats going on around you. We just can not change what they do. No one store can ever effect what the corparation does. I have worked there for a little over a year now. The problem is that every single person at my store is a hardcore super video game fanatatic. We love our games, all games, and we love our customers for giving us a job. We see the problem that has been in this post we have see them in every single post about gamestop in every single message board. There is not a single fucking thing any of us can do. The only person that has a chance to even sugjest a change is the District or Area Suppervisor, but those people are souless corprate gread demons with no real knowlage of what is happening around them. Ok not ALL DMs are demons but mine is. :D YAY 

Anyways getting back to the point. We hear every single complaint, every comment, every diss, every word about the hate for Gamestop, and for the policys. There is just nuthing we can do, and at least for me it hurts and IM SORRY! My store does the best we can to bend rules, be helpfull, and understand the customers. We actually fucking try unlike most Gamestops! Its a shame really, maybe if more employes understood there customers, and more customers understood the employes we whould never have these disscusions. I understand the frustration of $5 bucks of a almost new game, and we only payed maybe $30 total if that in trade. We need people to understand that not only is it garenteed to work or you get a new copy and we have to lose money because we took it back, but you buying that used copy is the ONLY reason we are in business or we have a job. We only get $5 on new games and systems as profit... THATS BULL SHIT!! No company could every stay in business if all they made was that little of profit. Well unless we sold the games from the back of someones car.. ROFL.

My point is please try and understand your local employes at gamestop, we are just trying to make a living doing something we LOVE! Maybe you can help all of us understand what small things we can do for you. Slowly the company might change to help support growth, instead of making the customers feel like just $$.

I know it's not the majority of the employees' fault, I was just poking fun at MM (it's awesome, you should try it!)

Still, though, nobody's forcing you to work at GameStop, and if you really strongly disagree with anything, nothing stops you from walking out, right?



(Former) Lead Moderator and (Eternal) VGC Detective

Torillian said:

You're going to blame the developer for not making a perfect game and therefore it's their fault for improving with a sequel? Why do you hate developers so much?

y'know what, screw it, I think I'm going to have to give up on this argument because I'm just tired of hearing you blame evrything on the guys trying to make games for you.  How you can't have more respect and empathy for them is beyond me. 

WOW, nice way to stick words in people's mouths. Look it's simple, we want to be entertained by the game. If it doesn;t do that, we sell it or leave it on the shelf. You somehow think that we are so rude to the developer becuase we did not enjoy the game.

I have no respect for anyone who can't make an entertaining product. That is the point of videogames. That's the reason I buy them. If they can't make entertaining software, then they are in the wrong business.