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Forums - Gaming Discussion - David Jaffe hates his customers. Does not want used game sales to continue

Millennium on 30 August 2009

Sure, the used-game industry hurts game makers' profits, just like the garage-sale and secondhand sector hurt the profits of furniture makers. The first-sale doctrine -which states that IP rightsholders only have any right to money gained from a copy of a work the first time it is sold- was created for precisely this purpose: to make IP mimic actual property. This is not a problem in the slightest.



Complexity is not depth. Machismo is not maturity. Obsession is not dedication. Tedium is not challenge. Support gaming: support the Wii.

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What do I hate about modern gaming? I hate tedium replacing challenge, complexity replacing depth, and domination replacing entertainment. I hate the outsourcing of mechanics to physics textbooks, art direction to photocopiers, and story to cheap Hollywood screenwriters. I hate the confusion of obsession with dedication, style with substance, new with gimmicky, old with obsolete, new with evolutionary, and old with time-tested.
There is much to hate about modern gaming. That is why I support the Wii.

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theRepublic on 30 August 2009
dbot said:
TheThunder said:
noname2200 said:
dbot said:
 I agree with Munkeh, I dislike used games as well. Very few publishers/developers are able to make profits this generation and every sale counts. Rentals/used games hurt the industry as a whole. 

 For what it's worth, you're right about devs and publishers not making money, and needing to take every sale they can get.

Here's the thing: it's not my problem.

They made a business model in which they are unable to turn a profit despite record revenues. It's not my fault that they're starving in the garden of Eden: I (and hundreds of millions of other consumers worldwide) have already given them money. If they can't make do with what they have, they need to reconsider how they do business, not avariciously search for ways to defy the rules that have been in place for decades! It's not like it's impossible to operate under the modern environment: some companies are doing quite well, even VERY well. Jaffe comes out sounding like a whiner who either can't compete in the business environment, or a greedy SOB who wants more of our money. Either way, he gets no sympathy from me.

This can't be quoted enough, especially the second part. Bravo sir.


It is your problem, you are just to short-sighted to see it.  Publishers are not in business to lose money.  When a business plan is no longer viable, companies change the rules.  The used/rental markets are eating more and more of the profits from publishers.  They will find a way to stop it, or they will stop making games.  There is little incentive to risk tens of millions of dollars on a AAA title if the current model all but guarantees they will lose money.  

How is the used/rental market eating profit when publishers are making record revenues?  They are making more money than ever before.  What is actually eating their profits are the record costs that these publishers are putting up.



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Gnizmo on 30 August 2009

The point Avinash should be making is that the developer has already been paid for the initial copy of the game. After that point it is no longer their property. I see no reason that the developer of a game should be able to tax all re-sale's while every other industry under the Sun has to make due with the initial sale. There is no great out-cry against used book stores, used car sales, houses being sold, discount movie theaters, second hand clothing stores (Goodwill et al), pawn shops, or any number of other businesses that have the exact same issue. If these other industries can survive the horrors of used sales, then so can the video game industry. If it cannot in the current form, then clearly something has to change or the industry will collapse on itself.



Starcraft 2 ID: Gnizmo 229

Gnizmo on 30 August 2009
Fei-Hung said:
i dont understand how anyone can compare video games sales to the sale of films and music or cars. the things are not possible to compare and these are the reasons why:

1) films make money from cinema, pay per view, satelite, terrestial, dvd, BR and cable sales.
2) music makes money from, cd sales, concerts, selling songs to be used as soundtracks and jingles, ringtones sales and apps such as itunes.
3) cars make money when sold, then make more money from car part sales, servicing of their cars and further services such as garages.

video games make income from only one source. the sales of games! if we the consumers really give a shit about video games, how can we start cutting of the one income these devs and publishers have for their work?

david jaffe wasnt saying he is against 2nd hand game sales, he is saying the stores who sale 2nd hand games should give a fraction of the profit to publishers/devs. considering these retailers are making 100% profit on some of the 2nd hand games they sell.

everyone is being greedy, the consumers, the retailers and the devs and publisher. however, it is only the devs, publishers who have put their hard work, effort and time into making the product.

Video games also have accsories, toy lines, and downloadable content that can be sold for more profit. In addition, there is no great problem with used book sales, jewelry, clothing, toys, and any number of other products that do not gain these other special benefits. You may not be able to compare the video game industry to any one of them, but you should be able to compare them collectively. All the other industries are thriving despite the fact that they must deal with the horror of used sales. If every other industry save video games can find a successful business model to account for the second hand market then there is something wrong with the video game industry. There are many alternatives to going pure digital distribution, and many of them are being experimented with now. Offering extras to those who buy new is the best solution in my personal opinion, but it is only one of many paths.



Starcraft 2 ID: Gnizmo 229

Adjudicator on 30 August 2009

@theRepublic.... Sorry if I was unclear. I was under the impression that the reason there is a delay in release of official DVD's and discount theaters is because of this very reason. Once the DVD's are released or the movies hit discount theaters the makers start losing alot more money, it is inevitable so to soften the blow it takes a while to come out.
Remember initially my only problem is them selling the games used so soon after release and undercutting the developers.



 

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Avinash_Tyagi on 30 August 2009
Gnizmo said:
The point Avinash should be making is that the developer has already been paid for the initial copy of the game. After that point it is no longer their property. I see no reason that the developer of a game should be able to tax all re-sale's while every other industry under the Sun has to make due with the initial sale. There is no great out-cry against used book stores, used car sales, houses being sold, discount movie theaters, second hand clothing stores (Goodwill et al), pawn shops, or any number of other businesses that have the exact same issue. If these other industries can survive the horrors of used sales, then so can the video game industry. If it cannot in the current form, then clearly something has to change or the industry will collapse on itself.

That's completely true, but some people want to argue that the developers deserve a slice of the resale market in spite of the fact that they have already been paid for the initial sale, and i'm just trying to point out that they don't deserve anything extra, since resales ocur on things people are not satisfied with



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

Serious_frusting on 30 August 2009

Well i agree with him and i like him even more now then i have ever done. I think he is fucking brilliant



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Gnizmo on 30 August 2009
Avinash_Tyagi said:

That's completely true, but some people want to argue that the developers deserve a slice of the resale market in spite of the fact that they have already been paid for the initial sale, and i'm just trying to point out that they don't deserve anything extra, since resales ocur on things people are not satisfied with

They also sell things they are completely satisfied with under the right circumstances. Simply selling a game does not show the gamer does not love it. It shows a lack of replayability. The consumer could also be doing it because cash is low for whatever else is desired such as a brand new game. This could come from the same developer, and the previous game being the primary motivation for trying out the new game. You are attempting to over-simplify to an absurd level. Your point is entirely wrong as it assumes people are naturally collectors and/or never get bored of what they have. Both of these are almost certainly false.



Starcraft 2 ID: Gnizmo 229

makingmusic476 on 30 August 2009
Pyro as Bill said:
Kantor said:
Yeah, I think David Jaffe should die because he wants money from every sale of a game he spent loads of time and money developing. What an asshole!

Film and music artists don't seem to mind. Authors don't seem to have a problem with it. I can't think of any manufacturers that dislike it either.

Stupid 'industry' deserves to die.

The music and film industries don't have as organized a system of reselling merchandise, however.  There is nothing quite like GameStop for these other industries, an entity that buys used goods for 10% of their initial price and then resells them for only 10% less than their new price, and somehow persuades people to buy these used goods over new en masse.  I'm sure a much higher proportion of video game sales are used items than in either the music or film industries.

Hell, GameStop even tried to get into movies.  They couldn't get people to buy a used movie for more than $3, however. Why people are so willing to get ripped-off on used games in particular is beyond me. 

I work at GameStop, and it sickens me the number of people that'll buy a beat up copy of a game just to save 5-10 bucks.

I don't think developers have a problem with used sales so much so as they dislike GameStop itself, and their dislike of GameStop manifests itself whenever somebody brings up the discussion of used goods. 



makingmusic476 on 30 August 2009
theRepublic said:

That video Jaffe posted is awful. Let's go through a few of the logical fallacies.

If the only reason you are playing games is that you want to be able to resell them, you should stop playing games.
No one plays games so they can resell them. They play games for fun, or story, or relaxation, or to hang out with friends, etc. They resell games so that they can buy new games to play. If people felt that a game was worth what they paid for it, they would not sell it to try and recoup their investment.

Personally, I think that if a cheaper option wasn't available to play games, we would see the consumer pool shrink.  That would be terrible for the industry.

You don't deserve to pirate games just because you think they should be cheaper
No one is talking about piracy. We are talking about the legal sale of used games.
Publishers and developers have no problem with used games sales, we just want a piece of the pie.
Yes, you do have a problem with used game sales. Don't try and sugarcoat it. Name me one other industry where the original producer makes money on used sales.

Just one.

Used game sales are not the same as used car sales. Used cars won't last as long don't run as well, etc. A used game is the same no matter how many times it is sold.
True. But the same can be said for used book sales, used movie sales, and used CD sales. Yet those industries are all doing just fine. What about libraries? You can read pretty much any book you want for free!

By the way, Jaffe just took down the video I'm talking about in this post. It seems he doesn't want people to know how anti-consumer he is.

To better understand that first quote, you should read the initial conversation that started all of this. Basically, the other guy said he wouldn't have bought God of War if he hadn't had the option to resell it later.  Jaffe's response was that if you'd only buy a game knowing you'd be able to resell it later, you shouldn't be playing games, as you obviously care more about the option to get rid of the game more than the substance of the game.