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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - id Boss: 3rd-Party Wii Development "Not Really Justified"

Shanobi said:

I'll just reiterate the point that blows the argument out of the water:

Every fps game on the Wii, minus Far Cry (a hugely buggy port), and possibly Medal of Honor: Vanguard (a crap port with no sales tracking here), have outsold both of Id's games on the HD systems.

The end.

Talking about Quake 4 and Enemy Territory? Those two ports (by Raven and Nerve) indeed sold poorly on 360 and PS3.

But that's cherrypicking: I'm sure that when at id they were deciding if it was worth it going multiplatform with Rage, they considered the sales of those two among the sales of all games of that genre on the HD consoles. They made their informed choice of trying this new - for them - market, and to not try on the Wii.

It might be that the "compelling case" that they lament is absent is a game selling enough to cover for the AAA, tech based project they think they can pull off on the PS3/360. If "The Conduit" sells great, or even if it only does ok but HVS has success in licensing its engine, it might be the case they wanted and on which to expand on a greater scale.

 



"All you need in life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure." - Mark Twain

"..." - Gordon Freeman

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NJ5 said:
makingmusic476 said:
NJ5 said:

Just one more thing:

if you're a third-party developer, I would say, "Show me what makes such a compelling case for the Wii.


Here is what makes a compelling case for the Wii:

1- It has nearly 50% of market share.
2- It's the platform which sells the most 3rd party software.
3- It's the platform with the cheapest development costs.
4- Good quality 3rd party titles have had success on the platform.
5- By developing for the Wii, you'll make your company and franchises known to many new gamers, and keep the previously existing ones mindful of them. The alternative is to let Nintendo regain most of the attention and brand recognition.
6- Focusing on the other platforms is proving financially disastrous.

Aren't those enough reasons to make a serious effort with Wii development?

 

I in general agreee with your point, but I disagree with a number of the specifics.

1. This means nothing. What really matters is what type of games those people are buying.

2. Now we're getting somewhere. But again, which type of third party titles are selling well? Is it the type of game that id makes? id focuses heavily on online-centric FPSes that push the bar of technology. That doesn't really jibe with what the Wii is offering. Really, only the PC suits them, though they throw off some cheap ps3 and 360 ports for some extra change.

3. This also means nothing. If they only cared about dev costs, why not go with PSP/DS over Wii? Or PSN/XBLA? Or just release a small title via Steam? Audiosurf made a profit the very day it was released!

What really matters is what type of game you're trying to create. After that, you decide if there are any platforms out there that could feasibly support the title while bringing in a profit. Touching yet again on what I said above, id makes games that just don't fit with the Wii.

And even if a company does go ps3/360, they still wouldn't have to utilize what each console has to offer to the max, thus avoiding the huge develoment costs often associated with blockbusters released on the platforms. The Way of the Samurai 3 is currently lthe 17th best selling ps3 title in Japan, and from a technical perspective it looks like a Wii game, only at a higher resolution and with better AA. It probably didn't cost much more than its predecessors to develop, and certainly not much more than a decent Wii game.

5. Agree 100%, provided you actually market the games for the platform *cough*Ubisoft*cough*Capcom*cough*.

6. If you make an abomination like Lair, then yes. But if you manage to pull out a big title, it can be extremely rewarding. The main issue is developers assuming they have to push the consoles to the max in terms of graphics. Gameplay is severly lacking in many titles this gen, and that's an area that hasn't changed much this gen versus the last, outside of the Wii. Developers need to spend more time fine tuning that rather than trying to get as many cycles out of the Cell as they can.

___

In the end, third parties need to take the Wii more seriously, but first they need to determine if the Wii is right for what they're offering, and more importantly, how they can change what they're offering (if need be) to best suite the Wii. It's quite obvious some publishers are struggling with the latter, as shown by EA's disasterous "All Play" series.

1- I'm just saying, ignoring 50% of the market when you're a game developer seems rather foolish especially for the ones which aren't profitable right now.

2- See Shanobi's post. Nevertheless I was making the case for a 3rd party developer in general, given that these declarations from iD's CEO are quite general (as far as the OP shows), not iD specific.

3- It means something when you put it together with the other points, especially number 6.

6- I'm talking about 3rd parties financial problems, with several publishers and developers going bankrupt and many others having huge losses (and no, this is not only due to the recession since it started before that). Frankly I think we're witnessing an industry crash, and if the Wii is not what helps publishers get out of it, I don't think anything will (they have tried almost everything else).

 

I have to side with NJ5 on this one MakingMusic. Look at GTAIV. Despite all of the copies it sold Take Two still lost money. Midway is bankrupt and while they put out stinkers like Area51 Blacksite, their MK titles sold well and they put out other sold titles like Stranglehold. EA despite all of the software they sell lose money continually as well. Sure a Haze or Lair will sink a smaller company but when a GTAIV or Madden title can't put your company in the black, something is truly wrong.

 



Darc Requiem said:

I have to side with NJ5 on this one MakingMusic. Look at GTAIV. Despite all of the copies it sold Take Two still lost money. Midway is bankrupt and while they put out stinkers like Area51 Blacksite, their MK titles sold well and they put out other sold titles like Stranglehold. EA despite all of the software they sell lose money continually as well. Sure a Haze or Lair will sink a smaller company but when a GTAIV or Madden title can't put your company in the black, something is truly wrong.

Are you saying recent Madden games haven't been profitable?



Words Of Wisdom said:
Darc Requiem said:

I have to side with NJ5 on this one MakingMusic. Look at GTAIV. Despite all of the copies it sold Take Two still lost money. Midway is bankrupt and while they put out stinkers like Area51 Blacksite, their MK titles sold well and they put out other sold titles like Stranglehold. EA despite all of the software they sell lose money continually as well. Sure a Haze or Lair will sink a smaller company but when a GTAIV or Madden title can't put your company in the black, something is truly wrong.

Are you saying recent Madden games haven't been profitable?

 

EA isn't profitable.



Words Of Wisdom said:
Darc Requiem said:

I have to side with NJ5 on this one MakingMusic. Look at GTAIV. Despite all of the copies it sold Take Two still lost money. Midway is bankrupt and while they put out stinkers like Area51 Blacksite, their MK titles sold well and they put out other sold titles like Stranglehold. EA despite all of the software they sell lose money continually as well. Sure a Haze or Lair will sink a smaller company but when a GTAIV or Madden title can't put your company in the black, something is truly wrong.

Are you saying recent Madden games haven't been profitable?

 

No, read the comment again.



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LordTheNightKnight said:
Words Of Wisdom said:
Darc Requiem said:

I have to side with NJ5 on this one MakingMusic. Look at GTAIV. Despite all of the copies it sold Take Two still lost money. Midway is bankrupt and while they put out stinkers like Area51 Blacksite, their MK titles sold well and they put out other sold titles like Stranglehold. EA despite all of the software they sell lose money continually as well. Sure a Haze or Lair will sink a smaller company but when a GTAIV or Madden title can't put your company in the black, something is truly wrong.

Are you saying recent Madden games haven't been profitable?

No, read the comment again.

I read it correctly the first time.  The last sentence strongly implies that Madden should be able to power all of EA on its own which is utter nonsense.



Words Of Wisdom said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
Words Of Wisdom said:
Darc Requiem said:

I have to side with NJ5 on this one MakingMusic. Look at GTAIV. Despite all of the copies it sold Take Two still lost money. Midway is bankrupt and while they put out stinkers like Area51 Blacksite, their MK titles sold well and they put out other sold titles like Stranglehold. EA despite all of the software they sell lose money continually as well. Sure a Haze or Lair will sink a smaller company but when a GTAIV or Madden title can't put your company in the black, something is truly wrong.

Are you saying recent Madden games haven't been profitable?

No, read the comment again.

I read it correctly the first time.  The last sentence strongly implies that Madden should be able to power all of EA on its own which is utter nonsense.

You read my post, but completely missed the point. Everyone else seemed to get my point. Which was that you have third parties like EA that have several multimillion seller titles losing money. Your initial response "Are you saying recent Madden games haven't been profitable?" Is completely off base as isn't implied anywhere in my post.  You seemed zero in on the last sentence and ignore the rest of the post entirely.

What puzzles me even more is I said in my initial post that EA loses money despite all of the software they sell. Why did I specifically list Madden and GTAIV for that matter? They are the two most well known properities of two major third parties developers that lose millions every year in spite of selling massive amounts of software. Which was the whole point of my post to begin with. NJ5 said that said that supporting the other platforms have proved financialy disasterous. The biggest third party developers being unable to profit supports his view of the situation.

 



People always seem to blast people when they bring up things like that. but the facts remain that despite having huge blockbuster sales companies are still seeing red. That is a huge problem that alot of "hardcore" gamers want to ignore, regardless of facts staring them in the face.



Bet between Slimbeast and Arius Dion about Wii sales 2009:


If the Wii sells less than 20 million in 2009 (as defined by VGC sales between week ending 3d Jan 2009 to week ending 4th Jan 2010) Slimebeast wins and get to control Arius Dion's sig for 1 month.

If the Wii sells more than 20 million in 2009 (as defined above) Arius Dion wins and gets to control Slimebeast's sig for 1 month.

Darc Requiem said:
Words Of Wisdom said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
Words Of Wisdom said:
Darc Requiem said:

I have to side with NJ5 on this one MakingMusic. Look at GTAIV. Despite all of the copies it sold Take Two still lost money. Midway is bankrupt and while they put out stinkers like Area51 Blacksite, their MK titles sold well and they put out other sold titles like Stranglehold. EA despite all of the software they sell lose money continually as well. Sure a Haze or Lair will sink a smaller company but when a GTAIV or Madden title can't put your company in the black, something is truly wrong.

Are you saying recent Madden games haven't been profitable?

No, read the comment again.

I read it correctly the first time.  The last sentence strongly implies that Madden should be able to power all of EA on its own which is utter nonsense.

You read my post, but completely missed the point. Everyone else seemed to get my point. Which was that you have third parties like EA that have several multimillion seller titles losing money. Your initial response "Are you saying recent Madden games haven't been profitable?" Is completely off base as isn't implied anywhere in my post.  You seemed zero in on the last sentence and ignore the rest of the post entirely.

What puzzles me even more is I said in my initial post that EA loses money despite all of the software they sell. Why did I specifically list Madden and GTAIV for that matter? They are the two most well known properities of two major third parties developers that lose millions every year in spite of selling massive amounts of software. Which was the whole point of my post to begin with. NJ5 said that said that supporting the other platforms have proved financialy disasterous. The biggest third party developers being unable to profit supports his view of the situation.

Read your last sentence again and pay attention to the "but when a GTAIV or Madden title can't put your company in the black, something is truly wrong."  EA isn't failing with its flagship title; its losses are coming with other efforts AFAIK.  Instead of cheekishly mentioning big name titles as if they should support the company's other ventures, you should directly call out the offenders.

Going on to talk about supporting other platforms proving dangerous is also absurd when EA has their multiplatform Madden title which shows that multiplatform games work very well for the series (though Wii/Xbox Original sales are lackluster compared to other platforms).  It's not supporting other platforms that's killing companies, it's producing games for a target audience that has no interest in them that's hurting.  There is no PS2 of this generation; no one console in this generation is a money machine for developers that they can put all their titles on and expect to get rich.  Developers actually need to pay attention to fanbases, target audiences, and other factors now.  Each time they guess wrong the market hits them with a financial loss and right now, a lot of people are guessing wrong.



Ah looks like typical 3rd party sales denial syndrom of Wii owners - when ID guy is perfectly right.

Third party games don't sell well unless they are old gamecube rehashes, instrument music games or casual stuff so it would be unwise for companies wanting to produce quality core games to go for Wii.

Yes you can be proud Activision and Ubisoft wants to concentrate on Wii - pity they are the ultimate masters of shovelware.

And yes Midway bancrupted - can you show me any good game they published other than MK vs DC (which btw was blastphemy and cash-in for series fans)



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