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Forums - Sony Discussion - Killzone 2 framerate can drop as low as 20fps

FaRmLaNd on 22 February 2009

Its presumably not that bad considering the web outrage isn't in full swing. If it was a huge problem we'd have threads popping up every other minute.



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MaxwellGT2000 on 22 February 2009
windbane said:
MaxwellGT2000 said:
windbane said:

Well when the Wii is rendering basic triangles I guess it's a little easier...

 

This post could have been made about any FPS in history. It's just dumb. No one notices frame rate drops except for whoever wrote this stupid article. Read reviews.

 

In all my years of math classes, geometry, calculus, trig and such I never knew there was "complex" triangles, what are these, do they have an extra side to them? making them squares? :P

All 3D models everywhere are made of polygons...

Clarification: just triangles. No polygons. Maybe some squares.

Edit:  also, no one studies MP3 to see if it has frame rate drops because no cares enough to bash it.  KZ2 is going through the same stuff that Halo and Gears did.  props to Infinity Ward for getting away with infinite spawns.  Those should be picked apart.

 

 

OMFG LMAO BAHAHAHA Ok ok caught my breath.

This!

 



MaxwellGT2000 - "Does the amount of times you beat it count towards how hardcore you are?"

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windbane on 22 February 2009

Guess you proved me wrong...



terislb on 22 February 2009
windbane said:
Guess you proved me wrong...

 

 

and thus the world was ended



windbane on 22 February 2009

at least he amused himself, even if he missed my real point.



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PostModGuru on 22 February 2009
KylieDog said:
Euphoria14 said:
dbot said:
KylieDog said:
...and thus the reason for slow 'weighted' controls.

 

99% of the demo footage ran at a smooth 30 fps.  Most of the "lag" demonstrations involved shooting a wall while nothing else was happening, so I doubt there was any framerate issues.  Most of the drops in framerate occurred during large explosions, which isn't necessarily a problem since you are unlikely to be shooting/moving during these scenes.  Everyone here is well aware that you really dislike the controls, it is not necessary to bring it up every chance you get.

 

Amen!

Seriously, he doesn't need to bring this up in every single KZ2 thread on the site and what makes this case even worse that he acts like this is fact when he knows damn well it is a complete fabrication on his part.

He has an obvious agenda and I can't seem to understand why.

 

I bring it up where relevant.

 

Fact is the game has a slow pace because of technical problems if it were  pace like most popular FPS games.

 

edit: Also a big fat LAWL at you trying to say I am making it up.   That is just the most stretched weak piss poor defence imaginable.  Two seconds on google will kill that weak defence.

 

I have to admit that to me fps does not trump multiplayer replay value/fast controls in an FPS, IE COD$.  Yet, if what KylieDog says is well founded, I would say that the multiplayer may not flow as well as the developer may have hoped.  I still believe that this will be a flagship FPS for ps3, but without quick flowing controls I personally can not get into multiplayer, IE Grand Theft Auto IV multiplayer- The single player was great, but I only played live twice.  I don't see it playing well with people who relish a great fast playing FPS, IE Halo 3, UT3, Quake.   Judging by all the late night ads, Sony is putting a hefty burden on this FPS, I truly hope it pays off.  I am also interested in how the actual live multiplay goes off .  I'll get to play soon when my Bro Chicago Mike picks up his Pre, but the one thing that bothered me in the video was that nade toss at the top of the stairs with two red eyes talking below was fucking weak.  I hope they clean that huge blast up cause precision separates true players from the weak.



 

 

 

NJ5 on 22 February 2009
windbane said:

Clarification: just triangles. No polygons. Maybe some squares.

Edit:  also, no one studies MP3 to see if it has frame rate drops because no cares enough to bash it.  KZ2 is going through the same stuff that Halo and Gears did.  props to Infinity Ward for getting away with infinite spawns.  Those should be picked apart.

 

Today's 3D engines only use triangles. If you see a square in a game it's actually drawn as two triangles.

 



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dbot on 22 February 2009

Fact Check

  • Digital Foundry is a very reputable source.  This is not a fake.
  • If you watch the 7 minute analysis of the Killzone 2 demo you will see that the only frame "issues" occur during the initial cutscene, and during some mini-level loads.  The video can be viewed here (http://www.digitalfoundry.org/blog/).  This analysis tells as two things.  One, the initial cutscene is real time, not cgi as some have guessed.  Two, the frame rate is solid during all player control screens.  Meaning there are no technical issues being "covered up" by "weighty controls".
  • Fanboys should be careful of arguing the merits of 30 fps and the prowess of one console over the other.  I didn't notice many issues in Gears of War 2, but this site did an analysis showing its framerate drops below 24 fps with screen tearing. 


Thanks for the input, Jeff.

 

 

MaxwellGT2000 on 22 February 2009
windbane said:
at least he amused himself, even if he missed my real point.

 

That someone that 1) hasn't played an unreleased game is saying the slowdown doesn't effect gameplay and 2) just shown he doesn't know much about game graphics, yet has been whining about Wii graphics for over a year but praising PS3 graphics on internet forums... yeah...

So the point I've been getting from the overall posts you've made.

Graphics matter when it comes to Wii, if it's something like Metroid Prime 3, and can't tell the difference between it and the past games, and will refute all the given facts, yet if Killzone 2 has framerate that dips into the 20s and could possibly effect gameplay, all of a sudden technical stuff doesn't matter...

Just me but when you go around telling people things it just doesn't seem from a reliable source, I say wait till the game comes out and actually play it to make judgement, because the beta and the demo's are not the full game.



MaxwellGT2000 - "Does the amount of times you beat it count towards how hardcore you are?"

Wii Friend Code - 5882 9717 7391 0918 (PM me if you add me), PSN - MaxwellGT2000, XBL - BlkKniteCecil, MaxwellGT2000

Squilliam on 22 February 2009
WereKitten said:
Squilliam said:
epsilon72 said:
windbane said:
epsilon72 said:
MGS4 had some bad framerate problems as well, so I'm not surprised.

No it didn't.

 

Well, then my eyes must have framerate problems then, because when I played it it sure did


(mostly when several explosions/smoke plumes were occuring at once)

 

Actually it averaged a little under or a little over 25 FPS according to the same source that did this frame-rate test.

If we take John Carmack as gospel when he said that you get roughly 3* the performance from halving the frame-rate from 60 locked to 30 FPS locked. You must get 4* the performance going from a game which barely deviates from 60 down to a game which can go as low as 20 FPS. Im talking 59.567 or so FPS.

Infinity Ward are some awesome developers...

 

Digital Foundry makes accurate, objective frame-rate and resolution measures, and I respect them very much as a source. Same goes my respect for Carmack. On the other hand taking out of context a 3x factor, and pulling out of thin air a 4x for an undefined "performance" parameter is

a) a logical fallacy

b) a rethorical dishonesty, because quoting numbers from authoritative sources out of context for pure non-seuiturs is a way to have some of the trust they rightfully earned rub off on your wishful thinking and speculations.

As someone who works in the scientific field, I am very touchy on the necessary distinction. Try pulling any kind of rethoric, logical inconsistent trick like this in an objective scientific debate and you become a laughing stock. Let's try to keep the level higher, and wait for example for the in-depth analysis Digital Foundry has promised of the performance and features of the KZ2 engine (which they seem to be highly praising, notwithstanding the 20 fps dip they measured in instances they will surely detail)

As for the "awsomeness" of Infinity Ward, you're free to tag them in any way and they are authors of a greatly entertraining game. But again, in the context of graphic engines? That's misleading.

CryEngine2 is lauded for its realism. Id's Tech5 or even the deferred rendering techniques Guerilla developed for the KZ2 engine are the object of whitepapers and discussions among workers in the field. When a commercial project needs to license an existing engine UE3 or Source are discussed.

But the engine of COD4 (modified Id doom3 engine with bloom, self-shadows and dynamic lighting updates and proprietary physiscs as I recall) was merely adequate for the game, and never more than "good looking". The lighting in particular seemed to me (PC version, where framerate was not an issue, ever) to be quite sub-par and the texturing in the game was quite poor, probably a trade-off for framerate.

But if you can point me to objective peer analysis sustantiating the "awsomeness" of the COD4 engine, I'll be happy to read about it.

 

Call of Duty 4 = 1024x600 (2x AA) PS3

Call of Duty 4  = 1024x600 (2xAA) Xbox 360

Unfortunately I do not have an exact figure on the 'time cost' per frame of implementing. Lets just assume it takes 0.5MS per frame to implement, the exact figure isn't significant unless you want to definatively prove something which I do not have the time to do.

  • 60 frames per second = 1.66ms per frame
  • 30 frames per second = 3.33ms per frame
  • 20 frames per second = 5.0ms per frame.

Implementing MSAA (Assumed cost 0.5ms)

  • 60 fps = 30% of rendering time spent implementing MSAA
  • 30 fps = 15% of rendering time spent implementing MSAA
  • 20 fps = 10% of rendering time spent implementing MSAA

John Carmack was referring to a game called Rage which is set in a desert with high contrast so of course it is likely he would implement MSAA.

 He was likely referring to the length of time he could run the shader units on the respective consoles, and once you factor the other stops on the trip in the rendering pipeline running at 60fps with MSAA leaves very little time in comparison to running the game at 30 or 20 fps.

 



Tease.