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Forums - Sony Discussion - PS3 Shuts Up Gabe Newell!

@ Deneidez

200MB program


A 200 MB core game engine, that sounds bulky! Which one would you be talking about?

Even most full operating systems which are broken up in many small processes, with graphics and sound data aren't that big at their core.

If there's a clear demand someone will port some very high level inefficient for gaming programming languages onto the SPUs.

You can make Wouter van Oortmessen (aka Aardappel, famous for his many interesting programming and scripting languages) a solid proposal on why you would like to see this on the PS3. Provide good reasons why this would benefit the PS3 and him for doing so.

Here an interview with him at OSNews (I hooked him up for an interview with Eugenia):
http://www.osnews.com/story/169



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales

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MikeB said:

@ Deneidez

200MB program


A 200 MB core game engine, that sounds bulky! Which one would you be talking about?

Even most full operating systems which are broken up in many small processes, with graphics and sound data aren't that big at their core.

If there's a clear demand someone will port some very high level inefficient for gaming programming languages onto the SPUs.

You can make Wouter van Oortmessen (aka Aardappel, famous for his many interesting programming and scripting languages) a solid proposal on why you would like to see this on the PS3. Provide good reasons why this would benefit the PS3 or him.

Here an interview with him at OSNews (I hooked him up for an interview with Eugenia):
http://www.osnews.com/story/169

Don't twist my words. Just ask if you don't understand. I said:

How about example of that 10MB blocks & 200MB program with depencies on previous results and whole 10MB block.

And I ment, "10MB blocks & 200MB" -program. Meaning theres 200MB data and its in 10MB blocks. (I was referring to previous examples.)

 

Lol, so are you telling me that 'its not worth' to do this on PS3 and admitting that you cannot do everything on PS3?

 

@Final-Fan & Co.

http://www.research.ibm.com/cell/heterogeneousCMP.html



@ Deneidez

Meaning theres 200MB data and its in 10MB blocks.


What kind of data that cannot possibly be broken down in smaller pieces?

Lol, so are you telling me that 'its not worth' to do this on PS3 and admitting that you cannot do everything on PS3?


I said it can be done and it will be done if there are clear benefits.

Don't underestimate low level programmers like Wouter, to understand a bit more what cool tech he and other low level programmers I know have been working on:

For example they developed various different high level and low level programming languages for a virtual processor / virtual OS, including common languages like C, C++ and Java. It's a very simplified virtual processor which uses JIT techniques to translate for example C++ into native machine code on the fly, such as for x86, PPC and many embedded processors (so you only program your software once for all supported architectures, even using normally platform specific programming languages). It can also run as a full hosted OS with its own GUI and such.

For example Java for QNX was actually a virtual platform running a virtual Java machine written in virtual processor code and (it may sound strange a virtual platform on top of a virtual platform, but) it was the fastest implementation out there. BTW QNX is also rumoured to be at the core of Sony's CellOS (and every SPU runs a tiny microkernel OS).

Don't underestimate what can and can't be done. The SPUs are far more resourceful and feature rich than past embedded processors.



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales

MikeB said:

What kind of data that cannot possibly be broken down in smaller pieces?

Did you even go through the pseudocode I wrote? I guess not. This is so pointless. I just should have known. Whatever I write answer is something about PS3 and how good it is. -.-

Ok, I quit...



Deneidez said:
MikeB said:

What kind of data that cannot possibly be broken down in smaller pieces?

Did you even go through the pseudocode I wrote? I guess not. This is so pointless. I just should have known. Whatever I write answer is something about PS3 and how good it is. -.-

Ok, I quit...

 

You should know PS3 > ALL,PS3 > 360.

 

PS3 > X720

PS3> X1080

PS3> PS4

PS3> Wii

PS3> Crysis

PS3> God

PS3>Soulja Boy

Cell > Gohan

 



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No offense, Deneidez, and I know I play dumb on the forums here alot for the sake of fun, but the beer truth (that's as truthful as it gets in my book) is that the 360's CPU is not as powerful as the Cell, in any way, shape, or form, when it comes to game programming, which is often very amenable to parallelism, even outside of the rendering stages.

All the reports you can dig up on "teh interwebs" are basically hogwash cooked up by people who don't know what a mutex or a ring bus is, or what they mean to parallel algorithms, or professional game programming.

The GPU of the 360 is what gives it an advantage over the PS3. Not the memory architecture, and not the CPU. The GPU of the 360 is better, without question. The end result varies, depending on how the game is written -- game engines which start from a single process basis, like PC engines, are going naturally be better on the 360. Game engines written from the ground up for a specific console are going to end up better on the PS3. Its pretty cut-and-dried, and its played out that way for a few years now on the market -- its pretty evident from the PS3 exclusives being better, and the 360 cross platform games being better, and it makes a lot of sense... to me, anyway.

Newell doesn't like the PS3 because it doesn't fit nicely with Valve's PC engine architecture. He knows that parallelism is the future, but he doesn't like the SPU concept -- he prefers that each core had full access to main memory. The SPU idea reduces the amount of raw materials (transitors) needed to make large parallel CPUs possible, in exchange for a lot of ease-of-use functionality. Frankly, I understand his thoughts completely -- and I dislike the Cell idea as well, in that it is crazy inconvenient... but I know it has darn good reasons to exist as it does. I also dislike that I don't live in Hawai'i. Dang it!

What a pain it would (will) be if all parallel systems were (are going to be) as indirect as the Cell architecture. That, and Newell's, opinion doesn't stop the Cell from being a faster CPU than the Xenon though, and it doesn't make multi-core architectures less prone to heat issues, power consumption, and production costs, unless they go the way of the Cell.

We have 8 and 16 core processors (the full-scale kind) on the horizon. When the 16-core mega CPUs are outperformed by 4 core, 32-SPU versions of the Cell for a huge number of applications though... what is there to say? Lets face it, you don't need more than a couple cores in a business environment, outside of some number crunching apps which not every office suite user even cares about. Performance processing (games included) is about performance, not convenience. If it costs the same, or even less, to make, by nature of low transistor count per SPU core... the Cell idea may very well hit the bigtime in the future -- as soon as people accept it, that is.

But.. I just like to procrastinate, drink beer, and make joke posts on teh interwebz. I'm not actually joking with this post, but... it will be entertaining if you want to believe that I am, so that's cool too.

That's a lot of words for Procrastinato. Back to normal for me now. Beer rules.



 

Khuutra said:
If anyone wants to tell me with a straight face that they expect Killzone, or any game ocming out this year, to be as good as Portal, I want to hear it.

I really do.

 

Killzone 2 and Uncharted 2. Portal was cool, I got bored tho.



PSN ID= bigdaddymoo

 

MSI GT725-074 owner..... TRUE BEAST.. COD4 is a different game on PC.

Procrastinato said:
No offense, Deneidez, and I know I play dumb on the forums here alot for the sake of fun, but the beer truth (that's as truthful as it gets in my book) is that the 360's CPU is not as powerful as the Cell, in any way, shape, or form, when it comes to game programming, which is often very amenable to parallelism, even outside of the rendering stages.

All the reports you can dig up on "teh interwebs" are basically hogwash cooked up by people who don't know what a mutex or a ring bus is, or what they mean to parallel algorithms, or professional game programming.

The GPU of the 360 is what gives it an advantage over the PS3. Not the memory architecture, and not the CPU. The GPU of the 360 is better, without question. The end result varies, depending on how the game is written -- game engines which start from a single process basis, like PC engines, are going naturally be better on the 360. Game engines written from the ground up for a specific console are going to end up better on the PS3. Its pretty cut-and-dried, and its played out that way for a few years now on the market -- its pretty evident from the PS3 exclusives being better, and the 360 cross platform games being better, and it makes a lot of sense... to me, anyway.

Newell doesn't like the PS3 because it doesn't fit nicely with Valve's PC engine architecture. He knows that parallelism is the future, but he doesn't like the SPU concept -- he prefers that each core had full access to main memory. The SPU idea reduces the amount of raw materials (transitors) needed to make large parallel CPUs possible, in exchange for a lot of ease-of-use functionality. Frankly, I understand his thoughts completely -- and I dislike the Cell idea as well, in that it is crazy inconvenient... but I know it has darn good reasons to exist as it does. I also dislike that I don't live in Hawai'i. Dang it!

What a pain it would (will) be if all parallel systems were (are going to be) as indirect as the Cell architecture. That, and Newell's, opinion doesn't stop the Cell from being a faster CPU than the Xenon though, and it doesn't make multi-core architectures less prone to heat issues, power consumption, and production costs, unless they go the way of the Cell.

We have 8 and 16 core processors (the full-scale kind) on the horizon. When the 16-core mega CPUs are outperformed by 4 core, 32-SPU versions of the Cell for a huge number of applications though... what is there to say? Lets face it, you don't need more than a couple cores in a business environment, outside of some number crunching apps which not every office suite user even cares about. Performance processing (games included) is about performance, not convenience. If it costs the same, or even less, to make, by nature of low transistor count per SPU core... the Cell idea may very well hit the bigtime in the future -- as soon as people accept it, that is.

But.. I just like to procrastinate, drink beer, and make joke posts on teh interwebz. I'm not actually joking with this post, but... it will be entertaining if you want to believe that I am, so that's cool too.

That's a lot of words for Procrastinato. Back to normal for me now. Beer rules.

 

Quoted for truth. A trully excellent post Procrastinato.



Playing: InFamous, Super Robot Taisen OG Saga, Modern Warfare 2

 

@ Deneidez

Whatever I write answer is something about PS3 and how good it is. -.- Ok, I quit...
Sorry I indeed skipped some of your comments, I am currently moving to a new house and I am temporary on a shitty internet connection...
could of course make datastreams of what to do for SPUs but that would mean too much work for PPU, because those streams could be veeery long and of course they could be way too large for mem in some cases.
Yes, it can be done and that's what the Cell is designed for, data streaming with regard to data processing. For example streaming lossless audio (far too big to fit into local storage as a whole) or graphics which is for example processed line by line instead of processing whole images in one go. The PPU will never be close to being maxed out for managing to SPUs in games when the Cell is used as intended, meaning as good as everything else is done on the SPUs instead of the PPU. It's merely a challenge for developers coming from legacy game engines, but it can and will be done by talented programmers over time. The potential is enormous, Killzone 2 is only one of many milestones.



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales

Garnett said:
Deneidez said:
MikeB said:

What kind of data that cannot possibly be broken down in smaller pieces?

Did you even go through the pseudocode I wrote? I guess not. This is so pointless. I just should have known. Whatever I write answer is something about PS3 and how good it is. -.-

Ok, I quit...

 

You should know PS3 > ALL,PS3 > 360.

 

PS3 > X720

PS3> X1080

PS3> PS4

PS3> Wii

PS3> Crysis

PS3> God

PS3>Soulja Boy

Cell > Gohan

 

 

QFT lol