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Forums - General Discussion - Anthropogenic Global Warming

Lingyis said:
Kytiara said:

A few people in the thread about the 2008 US presidential election mentioned this might be a good debate and I agree.  So I'm curious to know:

  1. Do you believe in Anthropogenic Global Warming (from here on labelled as AGW)?
  2. What are you reasons for believing/disbelieving?
  3. How do you feel about the IPCC?
  4. How do you feel about proponents/opponents to the theory?
  5. What proof can you show one way or the other (Links would be good here)

1. yeah

2. steady supply of journal articles 

3. obviously need american support

4. see below

5. see below

 

While it's important to gather evidence of AGW, it's much, much, much more important to realize the following.

Even if there's a 10% chance that AGW is real, actions should be taken because the downside is unseemly large.  Sadly, politicians seems to glance over this and this kind of logic, though unassailable, is something the general populace seem not to be capable of reasoning.  More likely, they're just ignorant.

 Now I'd put the chances at closer to 99%.  Some commision came up with the figure 90%. I'm disappointed with the 90%.  99% might as well be the threshold where theory becomes fact.

Now I respond to 4 and 5.

It's impossible to "prove" or "disprove" something like this.  There are just too many variables, period.  This is why there's debate--it's the scientific method, you need to turn every stone.  But outside of this realm, you just need to make a leap of faith.  I'm sure that REPUTABLE scientists on both sides of the debate will tell you whether or not it's human caused, action should be taken because of the potential downside.

I hope more people can take my view.  It's like smoking--by the time sufficient quantities of research has been done to show very strong links with cancer, many people are dead.

 And even now there's studies once in a while that show no correlation, and somehow, those articles will make it in the headlines.  On the other hand, sometimes there's one article that show that a certain type of food is carcinogenic and the public immediately eschews that item... and then that article turns out to be not trustworthy.  The public mind works in mysterious ways.  Sigh. 

 

 

 

 


I would agree with you Lingyis except for the fact that those who are pushing AGW want to spend billions, if not trillions, of dollars attempting to solve a problem that may or may not even exist.  I feel that the money could be better spent on something we know is happening, such as preventing the 25 million people who die every year because they don't have food to eat or clean water to drink.  The latest IPCC report claims we'll see at most a few degree's celcius increase between now and 2100.  Nobody knows exactly how this will effect the world.  Some claim it will actually improve many parts of the world.  Others claim it will lead to mass flooding and the worst parts of the bible.  But it is a measurable fact that in the next 12 months, around 25 million people will die because they lack basic and essential requirements.

So tell me, why is it so important to hedge our bets on something like AGW when we can see people dying today?



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Kytiara said:

Shams, I am very interested in why you believe in AGW. What proof have you been shown and what research into the issue have you done? What specific piece of information made you believe so strongly? 

Why won't you show any links? Your statement about virtually every scientist being in accord is in my opinion false. There is a very large debate still raging about what the actual cause of climate change is. For example, two websites often quoted in the debate include http://www.climateaudit.org/ and http://www.realclimate.org/, both sites include contributors with scientific backgrounds, including climatologists, and yet the two sites hold opposing views.

I think one of the problems with this debate is exemplified with your answer to question 1. You admit you would ignore and laugh at anyone who disagrees with the idea of AGW, and yet how can there be a scientific process if anyone disagreeing is ignored?

I would love to have a long and indepth debate on this, but I (unfortunately) don't have time. I am writing this from work, and there is plenty of work that needs to be done (then we have a long weekend, and I have friends from interstate here - so may not visit VGchartz again till Tuesday).

I can't show any links (quickly), because I don't trawl the web looking for articles on this. If you want links - use Google, that is where I would get them from.

I get most of my information on this from the TV - not from the web. As I mentioned, I have been following AGW (in general) for a long, long time - and have been very disapointed that it has taken as long as it has for governments to act (their are popular quotes of leaders 10 years ago saying EXACTLY the same things are leaders are saying now).

I guess the "laugh" comment was a bit harsh (I was a little rushed for time when I wrote it), but that's how I fee. I haven't seen ANY evidence to DISPROVE AGW - and as we all know, its MUCH, MUCH easier to disprove something than it is to prove something.

So if someone wants to argue against AGW to myself - I will first ask them to collect "proof", then bring it to me and we can discuss it.

(I'm also slightly cynical, as I am a strong athiest - and the ONLY arguments I have heard against AGW have involved topics such as Noah, God, The Bible, etc...).

...

Now I want to know... how about YOU answer your first post. Do you believe in AGW?

 

 



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I'm from Europe, so of course I believe in global warming. Everybody outside the US believes it's happening, and that the only reason a lot of people in the States don't is because the amount of money the conservative lobby is putting into it, making it seem to many people like there is actually some kind of unclarity amongst the scientific community about it.



Kytiara said:

... 

So tell me, why is it so important to hedge our bets on something like AGW when we can see people dying today?

I'm sorry - but are you joking?

What makes you think ANYONE (in high government) cares about people dying? How much was spent on the Iraq war in the last few years? How much of a difference would this money have made in countries like Africa? Sudan? In addition, how many EXTRA people have died from the Iraq war (compared to say, keeping Saddam in power?).

Its already been shown by some studies (sorry, no time to research/link) that several of the conflicts in central Africa are a DIRECT result of AGW. This already has resulted in potential deaths of hundreds of thousands of people.

...

So much money is being spent on ridiculous things these days. Talking TENS of BILLIONS of dollars (if not more).

At least AGW (IMO) is a worthy cause. Renewable energy sources, hybrid(other) cars, more efficient industry (generalised), better coal mining practices(big one in Australia), destruction of native growth forests.

If it was up to me, I think we (humanity) have an obligation to stabilise our drain of natural resources on the planet, stabilise our creation of greenhouse gases (and other waste materials), stop the destruction of  rare animal species (etc..)... THEN we can get back to our "private" wars, political issues (and so on).

And as a completely separate issue, one day (assuming we make it that far :P), we will have to (as a species) be responsible enough to stabilise our population growth - and limit it to a certain (hard) number. In many ways, it has been our uncontrolled expansion/growth as a species that has caused all of these problems. Our endless "obsession" with growth is becoming dangerous, and it may yet lead to the total destruction of our species.

 

 



Gesta Non Verba

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I believe in global warming caused by the human race! I just read an article in the National Geographic! It was really shocking:

- In 2100... Arctica will be about 1/5 of the size it is now.

- The Alpes in Europe will be have NO snow in summer 2025.

- Highest ski-resort in the world is gone: It was at the hight of 5125m.

- In Greenland: Gleysiers are melting at a speed of 60m per day... That's just sick.

- When all ice on greenland melts Sealevels rise with 1-2 meters.

- Polarbears are likely to be extinct befor 2100. Cause of melting icecaps. (They don't live on southpool and their northern habitat is soon gone).

 

 

But most shocking is this theory:

When global warming goes on like this The northern icecap will be gonne before 2150 (And be 1/5 of the size it is now before 2100). When that happens the Gulfstream is interupted (This can happen as soon as 2075 aprox) The gulfstream makes sure warm waters go to the north just beside Europe. Which makes it possible to live in Europe with a nice climate. When this stream is interupted. An Ice-age occures. And then we're really screwed. But there's one good thing about it: Earth has somekind of switch when it warms up Too much... It gets SUPPER cold... And then after aprox 10.000 years restores to a balanced temperature.

 

StarcraftManiac.



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Kytiara said:
 

S. Fred Singer is an Atmospheric Physicist who is against the theory of AGW. You can google his name if you'd like information on him. He has a PhD in physics from Princeton. This is just a quick example I already knew about. I know there are others, but its late and I don't have time to give you more. My point is that there are in fact scientists, in the field of climatology (or a related field) that do not agree with the "scientific concensus" lead by the IPCC reports.


Singer is electrical engineer and physicist. He doesn't work in climatology. As I said, I know about scientist, that work in other area of science and doubt AGW.

 By the way, Wikipedia says he doubts a lot more:

'Singer is also skeptical about the connection between CFCs and ozone depletion, between UV-B radiation and melanoma and between second hand smoke and lung cancer.'

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Singer



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Kytiara said:

 

 

 


I would agree with you Lingyis except for the fact that those who are pushing AGW want to spend billions, if not trillions, of dollars attempting to solve a problem that may or may not even exist.  I feel that the money could be better spent on something we know is happening, such as preventing the 25 million people who die every year because they don't have food to eat or clean water to drink.  The latest IPCC report claims we'll see at most a few degree's celcius increase between now and 2100.  Nobody knows exactly how this will effect the world.  Some claim it will actually improve many parts of the world.  Others claim it will lead to mass flooding and the worst parts of the bible.  But it is a measurable fact that in the next 12 months, around 25 million people will die because they lack basic and essential requirements.

So tell me, why is it so important to hedge our bets on something like AGW when we can see people dying today?


 Clearly, you're among those who don't understand the hedging logic.  I see no point in pursuing this further.

As to the "people dying today" argument: simply unbelievable, what more can I say. 



the Wii is an epidemic.

I don't think that that's entirely fair.

It's not just about the probability of AGW being a real phenomenon. It's also about the probability of a given policy actually doing anything about it. You can't just say that there's some finite chance of everyone dying, so we need all of humanity to put everything they have into stopping it right away.

My understanding is that all of the same doomsaying would be just as applicable under Kyoto, which set goals that proved entirely unattainable. Of course, any sustained effort in the developed world is going to quickly amount to nothing, since it's just about impossible (politically and in actuality) to effectively tax imports reliant on 'illicit' emissions from other countries.

It may well be the case that the single best thing we can do to prevent global warming is to do nothing to hamper economic growth and scientific advancement.

The whole debate has always struck me as being pointlessly Malthusian. One side predicts that terrible things will result from unfettered human progress. One side misguidedly maintains that there's no indication that we're headed for ruin. Neither can predict what new tools and techniques modern science will come up with in the meantime.

We've heard this "we're all doomed" talk many times before, so you'll excuse me if I don't pay close attention.



@GotchayeX: No, thats not entirely true. Economic and technological advancement is made often if external pressure comes up. If business runs like usual, only a few companies innovate. Germany has a tax on emmissions and has made in the last years great technological advancement in the field of wind-energy and solar energy. We made so much progress, that we actually export many of this technology and it generates economic growth in germany.



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Don't get me wrong - I'm not advocating strict libertarianism here. I'd say that Germany's model makes sense, as you present it. It's trying to grow its economy by making strides in alternative energy. It's the people who argue that we need to cripple economic growth in order to beat global warming that I disagree with.

However, a permanent solution is likely going to come from a university laboratory and not from the private sector.