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Forums - Sales Discussion - FF7 Rebirth has reportedly sold half what Remake did in the same timeframe

Chrkeller said:
curl-6 said:

540p on a handheld screen isn't that bad, a lot of Switch 1 games run at 540p or lower without DLSS.

And yeah, settings like shadows and draw distance will need to be tweaked, but that's not a big obstacle, we saw this done with countless ports to Switch 1 like Witcher 3, Doom 2016/Eternal, Hellblade, Dying Light, Kingdom Come Deliverance, Hogwarts Legacy, etc.

Agreed.  The requirements for a small screen are different than a large one.  But the S2 is a hybrid so it will need to support output to a big screen.

The S2 can absolutely get ports.  But at 75% the ram amount and at 1/4 the memory bandwidth....  anybody who thinks the S2 is getting the ps5 version just at a lower resolution is daffy.  

And anyone who doesn't mind the sacrifices for a switch 2 version has my full support.  People are entitled to their preferences.  I just get annoyed when people are misleading, likely intentionally, about tech.  

For the bigger screen experience though, the hardware will almost certainly clock higher to allow for better resolution, just like the current system does. It's not gonna look nearly as crisp as a PS5, but that's okay, it's the tradeoff for a hybrid device.

And yeah there's definitely gonna be concessions beyond just resolution, that's true of most almost every port to less capable hardware throughout history. 

I expect there will be heaps of PS5 ports to Switch 2, just as there are heaps of PS4 ports to Switch 1. If a system sells well enough to justify the investment, then the games will come, especially now that engines are more scalable now than ever before.



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Chrkeller said:
Soundwave said:

540p to DLSS 1080p looks surprisingly good, have tested it even on huge 4K displays, it will be fine on a small 8 inch 1080p display, honestly I think it's a waste of power to spend more of your pixel budget for a higher resolution on a screen that small. You'd be better off if you have overhead to try and go for a 40-60 fps mode or something than wasting pixels to get to 720p to scale DLSS up to 1080p ... it's not going to make a massive difference on a small 1080p display.

540p DLSS to 1080p looks waaaaaaaaaaaay better than than 540p native current Switch games do, and you're getting basically on top of an image that looks closer to 1080p free anti-aliasing to boot, which is a nice bonus of DLSS, it basically provides you an anti-aliasing solution too.

FF7 Rebirth is near 4K native on the PS5 per Digital Foundry (30 fps mode). 

FF17 is likely not going to look much better than Rebirth, probably will be using the same exact engine. They don't have the sales to justify going up any more in graphics, tough shit graphics whores you should have bought FF16 and FF7 Remake but the market has spoken and y'all didn't show up, same thing for Alan Wake 2, these a lot of these games are not selling big numbers. 

Switch 2 gonna benefit, already has Call of Duty (thanks MS for buying Activision), got itself Persona, now mainline Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts is probably next. Square-Enix stock got rocked on the news of poor FF16 and flat out bad FF7 Rebirth sales, their new president is going running to Nintendo on his knees, need that Japan market leading console to have franchise growth. 

From digital foundry for FF16:

"Quality mode is typically 1080p to 1440p, upscaled to 4K, while performance mode seems to top out at 1080p but often drops lower."

FF17 isn't going to be 4k on the ps5...  not a chance at all.  Not even a remote one.

And there are dozens of DLSS articles, feel free to educate yourself.  DLSS doesn't work well for 540p to 1080p, there isn't enough input for the model.  DLSS is for 1080p to 1440p or 1440p to 4k. 

None of this tech works like you think it does.  Like none of it.  

I said graphics mode, which is 30 fps on PS5, it runs at 4K with some dips. 

Rebirth honestly isn't *that* great looking, it has nice art style, but it doesn't look much better if at all better than Horizon: Forbidden West on the PS4. 

For Square-Enix they're not going to have the money to go much higher than that visually, you need 10+ million in sales to get that and FFXVI and Rebirth both ain't sniffing that.

I don't need to read an article on DLSS, I can run 540p to 1080p DLSS right now on my screen on multiple games, it looks good enough, much better than 540p native on current Switch games. For a 8 inch 1080p display, I think frankly for a demanding port going for 720p native is simple a waste. You're not going to see a night and day difference between 540p to 1080p DLSS versus 720p to 1080p DLSS on a 8 inch 1080p screen, no way. It's a waste of pixels. You'd be better off using those pixels to add a 40 fps undocked mode (40 fps, 540p DLSS to 1080p is still fewer pixels than 720p @30 fps DLSS). By the way Nintendo has patented their own upscaling tech which is likely just their own name for DLSS but they specifically cite 540p to 1080p upscaling in the patent ... you better get used to it because it most definitely is going to be used a lot on Switch 2 and it looks fine. 

The undocked mode just needs to be good enough to play the game, it's not necessary that it be some super high resolution image, it's a waste on a small screen. 

The PS5-Switch 2 gap I don't think is going to be as large as PS4-Switch 1 ... the PS4 had 7x the bandwidth the Switch 1 did for example (176GB vs 25GB/sec), the PS5 only will have 3.7x (446GB/sec vs. 120GB/sec), so roughly that gap is cut in half and Nvidia GPUs don't need as much bandwidth to begin with because of tile based rendering as well. The PS5 actually is not a big improvement in memory bandwidth, only about 2.5x better than a PS4, the Switch 2 at 120GB/sec is close to 5x improvement over the Switch 1. The PS5 has to render a shit ton more pixels than the Switch 2 will too because, Switch 2 will be able to go down to very low resolutions (540p) to get a game running. Then we have the Series S which is even below that and most 3rd parties are still committed to Series S. 

Last edited by Soundwave - on 15 May 2024

curl-6 said:
Chrkeller said:

Agreed.  The requirements for a small screen are different than a large one.  But the S2 is a hybrid so it will need to support output to a big screen.

The S2 can absolutely get ports.  But at 75% the ram amount and at 1/4 the memory bandwidth....  anybody who thinks the S2 is getting the ps5 version just at a lower resolution is daffy.  

And anyone who doesn't mind the sacrifices for a switch 2 version has my full support.  People are entitled to their preferences.  I just get annoyed when people are misleading, likely intentionally, about tech.  

For the bigger screen experience though, the hardware will almost certainly clock higher to allow for better resolution, just like the current system does. It's not gonna look nearly as crisp as a PS5, but that's okay, it's the tradeoff for a hybrid device.

And yeah there's definitely gonna be concessions beyond just resolution, that's true of most almost every port to less capable hardware throughout history. 

I expect there will be heaps of PS5 ports to Switch 2, just as there are heaps of PS4 ports to Switch 1. If a system sells well enough to justify the investment, then the games will come, especially now that engines are more scalable now than ever before.

You and I are lock step.  Agreed with everything you said.  Your expectations for the S2 are spot on.  



There will be more PS5 ports to Switch 2 than Switch 1 got PS4 ports IMO.

Final Fantasy mainline, Call of Duty, Kingdom Hearts, Street Fighter VI, Madden NFL, Monster Hunter mainline (MH Wilds), etc. etc. There's a lot the Switch 1 didn't get that I think the Switch 2 will get.

Part of the reason why is there is a natural cap being put on graphics performance because most developers don't want to spend $200+ million on a game. A lot of series' have hit the peak point of what developers are willing to spend on them ... Final Fantasy is getting that reality check right now.

The other one is that the PS5 is really not a great upgrade on the PS4 to begin with. Another factor is the XBox Series S fucks up the whole equation too by lowering the floor even further lower and most/all developers are still committing to support the Series S (confirmed for GTA VI as an example).

Yet another factor is graphics engines are far more scalable today than even 8-10 years ago. 

There was no DLSS available for the Switch 1, another minus. 

You get more of a benefit of the doubt when you've just had what could be the no.1 selling game system of all time (bye bye PS2). 

There's a lot more factors working in Nintendo's favor this time around.



Square's problem isn't budget, it is exclusivity. Square is simply missing out on millions and millions of sales. Steam has more daily users than ps5 has total sales..... Square, imo, could double sales overnight.  It is called Steam.  Just look at Helldivers.    

And based on Square's press release, they finally figured it out.



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Chrkeller said:

Square's problem isn't budget, it is exclusivity. Square is simply missing out on millions and millions of sales. Steam has more daily users than ps5 has total sales..... Square, imo, could double sales overnight.  It is called Steam.  Just look at Helldivers.    

And based on Square's press release, they finally figured it out.

Their fiscal briefing specifically cites "Nintendo platforms" first as the platforms they are expanding multiplatform to, even ahead of the Playstation 5 which is probably not a random thing. 

They need to make Final Fantasy big in Japan again and that isn't going to happen without Switch 2. Plain and simple. 

They went from selling 3+ million an installment in Japan to selling a few hundred K, they've sewered the franchise there first and foremost. 

FF7 Remake even at 7 million (PS4 + PS5 + PC combined) is still disappointing ... something like Luigi's Mansion 3 is selling double that, it's hard to believe. They need to get younger people in to the series, it's becoming a dying brand for 40 year old farts. FF16 and FF7 Rebirth just did worse but even 7Remake is a dissapointment sales wise. 



Soundwave said:
Chrkeller said:

Square's problem isn't budget, it is exclusivity. Square is simply missing out on millions and millions of sales. Steam has more daily users than ps5 has total sales..... Square, imo, could double sales overnight.  It is called Steam.  Just look at Helldivers.    

And based on Square's press release, they finally figured it out.

Their fiscal briefing specifically cites "Nintendo platforms" first as the platforms they are expanding multiplatform to, even ahead of the Playstation 5 which is probably not a random thing. 

They need to make Final Fantasy big in Japan again and that isn't going to happen without Switch 2. Plain and simple. 

They went from selling 3+ million an installment in Japan to selling a few hundred K, they've sewered the franchise there first and foremost. 

FF7 Remake even at 7 million (PS4 + PS5 + PC combined) is still disappointing ... something like Luigi's Mansion 3 is selling double that, it's hard to believe. They need to get younger people in to the series, it's becoming a dying brand for 40 year old farts. FF16 and FF7 Rebirth just did worse but even 7Remake is a dissapointment sales wise. 

Scaling down to Nintendo hardware absolutely should be part of their strategy.  But you are being disingenuous about Remake.  It did not day 1 hit PC but was way after Playstation.  And it was a terrible port.  And Square alienated fans with making it 3 parts with too many changes.  You are assuming too much based on the remake trilogy.  

FF16 still isn't on PC....  Square is simply making bad decisions.



Switch 2 is not rendering any PS5 ports at anything above DLSS 1080p performance. And PS5 will still be the primary platform for FF

Last edited by Otter - on 17 May 2024

Soundwave said:
Chrkeller said:

From digital foundry for FF16:

"Quality mode is typically 1080p to 1440p, upscaled to 4K, while performance mode seems to top out at 1080p but often drops lower."

FF17 isn't going to be 4k on the ps5...  not a chance at all.  Not even a remote one.

And there are dozens of DLSS articles, feel free to educate yourself.  DLSS doesn't work well for 540p to 1080p, there isn't enough input for the model.  DLSS is for 1080p to 1440p or 1440p to 4k. 

None of this tech works like you think it does.  Like none of it.  

I said graphics mode, which is 30 fps on PS5, it runs at 4K with some dips. 

Rebirth honestly isn't *that* great looking, it has nice art style, but it doesn't look much better if at all better than Horizon: Forbidden West on the PS4. 

For Square-Enix they're not going to have the money to go much higher than that visually, you need 10+ million in sales to get that and FFXVI and Rebirth both ain't sniffing that.

I don't need to read an article on DLSS, I can run 540p to 1080p DLSS right now on my screen on multiple games, it looks good enough, much better than 540p native on current Switch games. For a 8 inch 1080p display, I think frankly for a demanding port going for 720p native is simple a waste. You're not going to see a night and day difference between 540p to 1080p DLSS versus 720p to 1080p DLSS on a 8 inch 1080p screen, no way. It's a waste of pixels. You'd be better off using those pixels to add a 40 fps undocked mode (40 fps, 540p DLSS to 1080p is still fewer pixels than 720p @30 fps DLSS). By the way Nintendo has patented their own upscaling tech which is likely just their own name for DLSS but they specifically cite 540p to 1080p upscaling in the patent ... you better get used to it because it most definitely is going to be used a lot on Switch 2 and it looks fine. 

The undocked mode just needs to be good enough to play the game, it's not necessary that it be some super high resolution image, it's a waste on a small screen. 

The PS5-Switch 2 gap I don't think is going to be as large as PS4-Switch 1 ... the PS4 had 7x the bandwidth the Switch 1 did for example (176GB vs 25GB/sec), the PS5 only will have 3.7x (446GB/sec vs. 120GB/sec), so roughly that gap is cut in half and Nvidia GPUs don't need as much bandwidth to begin with because of tile based rendering as well. The PS5 actually is not a big improvement in memory bandwidth, only about 2.5x better than a PS4, the Switch 2 at 120GB/sec is close to 5x improvement over the Switch 1. The PS5 has to render a shit ton more pixels than the Switch 2 will too because, Switch 2 will be able to go down to very low resolutions (540p) to get a game running. Then we have the Series S which is even below that and most 3rd parties are still committed to Series S. 

Quality mode is the same as graphics mode.  And FF16 doesn't remotely touch 4k.  It is 1080p to 1440p via dynamic resolution.

Those are just facts.  FF17 isn't hitting 4k on the ps5.  Most games are not close to 4k on the ps5.  Alan Wake 2 on the ps5 via graphics mode is 1272p, doesn't even hit 1440p.  

Fact: S2 will have to reduce more than resolution to run modern games.  There will be significant reduction to lighting, shadows, RT, filtering, textures, draw distance and volumetric effects.  

1/4 the bandwidth is going to impact fidelity.  Fact.  



Soundwave said:
Chrkeller said:

Square's problem isn't budget, it is exclusivity. Square is simply missing out on millions and millions of sales. Steam has more daily users than ps5 has total sales..... Square, imo, could double sales overnight.  It is called Steam.  Just look at Helldivers.    

And based on Square's press release, they finally figured it out.

Their fiscal briefing specifically cites "Nintendo platforms" first as the platforms they are expanding multiplatform to, even ahead of the Playstation 5 which is probably not a random thing. 

They need to make Final Fantasy big in Japan again and that isn't going to happen without Switch 2. Plain and simple. 

They went from selling 3+ million an installment in Japan to selling a few hundred K, they've sewered the franchise there first and foremost. 

FF7 Remake even at 7 million (PS4 + PS5 + PC combined) is still disappointing ... something like Luigi's Mansion 3 is selling double that, it's hard to believe. They need to get younger people in to the series, it's becoming a dying brand for 40 year old farts. FF16 and FF7 Rebirth just did worse but even 7Remake is a dissapointment sales wise. 

Honestly I don't think Japan is their primary concern. It will continue to come second to the much bigger western markets which has allowed Monster Hunter to sell 20m, and the last 3/4 resident Resident Evil games to comfortably hit 10m etc. 

There's a strong demonstration of RPGs in the west having big sales potential, Japan however has been a much harder market for the genre. You essentially have very average sales outside of Monster Hunter and Zelda. Although their next steps should absolutely include the Switch 2 and appealing to younger audiences, I don't think japanese audiences are what will shape or be the focus of their strategy.