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Forums - Sales - Will Switch outsell DS? PS2? Or Neither? (March 2024 Update Poll)

 

Will Switch outsell DS and/or PS2? or neither?

Switch will outsell both the DS & PS2 95 65.52%
 
Switch will outsell the DS, but not PS2 26 17.93%
 
Switch won't outsell DS or PS2 24 16.55%
 
Total:145

I feel like the debate will only get more heated in the following years, like in 2026 where the Switch will tangibly be quite close to the DS or have surpass it.

In the meantime, that number given by Jim has merits but isn't in the context it was given.
Unless Sony announced the milestone themselves through an official statement, which they would've done I'm sure if it surpassed the actual 160M mark.

Given that, the Switch do be leading the PS2 launch aligned by quite the margin and at some point, with the tally going higher and higher, might force Sony to actually blurt out the official numbers.



Switch Friend Code : 3905-6122-2909 

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RolStoppable said:

No, I don't expect Paper Mario and Luigi's Mansion to move a ton of hardware, because that's not how it works to begin with. The two of us have had discussions about Switch's sales momentum a few times in the last several years, and every time I've pointed out Switch's overall more than solid release schedule from first and third parties which will prevent sales from having a massive decline. In 2019 you doubted that Switch could pass 100m, later you doubted that Switch could pass the PS4, then 140m would have been too much of an ask in your mind. You know my argument already, so my response to the first half of your post can be condensed to me saying that the same logic will continue to hold true.

Switch is on pace to exceed Nintendo's projected 141.1m LTD mark by March 2024 and they'll likely forecast a figure of ~11m units for the fiscal year ending March 2025, because Switch's successor will hardly have an impact in the upcoming fiscal year. That's a decline of ~30% after FY23 declined by only ~15%. That will put Switch's LTD by March 2025 at 152m; the DS's lifetime figure stands at 154.02m. An additional mere 2m after an 11m year aren't a challenge, so I don't need to go into detail for each region. Try to run a shipment forecast for yourself and you should realize how hard it is to keep Switch below the DS in lifetime sales.

I missed this the other day since I don't spend much time here anymore (lack of sales data outside of Japan has killed a lot of sales discussion), I spent my time on Saturday dealing with mod reports, and I've been busy with personal stuff most of the rest of the time.

Anyway, however you define "solid release schedule," simply having a lot of games in total, even notable ones, isn't enough in and of itself to prevent significant declines. For example, in their last two years before being replaced, the 360 & PS3 had quite a few notable titles, including Mass Effect 3, regular franchises like CoD, Madden, and Assassin's Creed, exclusives like Halo 4 and The Last of Us, and of course the monster that was GTA5. They also had countless other less popular titles. Despite this, they had significant drops in those post-peak years. The 360 & PS3 dropped 27% & 24% respectively in the U.S. in 2012, and another 42.5% & 36.5% in 2013. Even after they were replaced they still got solid support (cross-gen being commonplace on PS & Xbox), yet that didn't prevent their decline from accelerating (-56.7% for the 360 and -65.7% for the PS3 in 2014 in the U.S.), nor did it prevent them from selling fewer units from Nov. 2013 on through the end of 2016 than they did in the 12 months before Nov. 2013. In those last 38 months of tracking their combined sales were ~5.4M vs. ~7.3M combined in the 12 months prior to replacement month.

I could point to a bunch of other systems as well, including Nintendo systems, and make the same observations about them having no shortage of games overall as well as more than a few notable titles yet still experiencing significant and sometimes very sharp declines. Nearly every system starts to have significant declines after it peaks, and those drops are usually more pronounced after the system is replaced (the only notable exception to the latter was the PS2). The accelerated post-replacement decline is especially pronounced with Nintendo systems, which is why this year is crucial for the Switch for its ability to pass potential future milestones. Despite its popularity, the Wii was dead in the water after the Wii U was released, and even the juggernaut that was the DS still saw shipments decline by two-thirds year-over-year in CY2011 and then another 88% the following year, and that's from a staggering 19.46M units shipped worldwide in CY2010, far better than any other Nintendo system in its last year. Even if the Switch ships another 10-12M this year, it could easily ship fewer than 5M units from 2025 onward. That's why I think it'll be close, and why passing the PS2 (which will require selling at least 5M more than the DS) is unlikely.

You and I clearly have different opinions on how fast the Switch will decline, and we just aren't going to see eye to eye on it. Hell, I probably am wrong regarding the DS, but I'm a stubborn old goat who'd still like to see a bit of vindication after the absolutely unnecessary abuse I got on this forum back in 2020-21. So let's leave it at that, shall we? Since we're just repeating ourselves every time a thread like this pops up, this will be the last time I discuss the matter until probably well after the Switch 2 releases and dust is starting to settle. Everybody already knows where I stand on the matter, and it's a waste of time to keep re-litigating it every couple of months.

Oh, and regarding my 2019 prediction for the Switch, I was far from the only one at the time who though it would "only" get to 100M. Prior to March 2020, not a single solitary soul had any clue how much the Switch was going to blow up that year. Back in January 2020, over half the respondents on a poll on this site felt the Switch wouldn't pass the PS4, and only 11.5% correctly guessed it would pass the PS4 in the latter half of 2022. I mean sure, the Switch was beating the PS4 by a 2-to-1 margin in Japan at that point, but in the U.S. it only just started consistently outperforming the PS4 in Q2 2019 and not by some massive amount (Switch LTD sales were 10% ahead of the PS4's, not counting the latter's launch quarter), and in Europe it was running a massive deficit against the PS4. Given that the board was split on whether the Switch could beat the PS4, the number of people who thought it could be the DS should have been even lower (a reasonable guess giving the massive LTD deficit against the DS the Switch had at the time).

2020 was an unprecedented year. Over on Era, the average prediction for 2020 sales in the U.S. had the Switch down slightly, with several sub-6M predictions and the most optimistic prediction being 6.9M. It ended up selling nearly 9M. Everybody got it very wrong with predictions for that year, and we all know why. Back in 2019, anybody could have been excused for thinking that the Switch had no shot at reach the DS or even that 2019 could have been the Switch's peak year. Predictions that the Switch would sell 150M+ were the outlier back then, not the consensus, even here on VGC. Keep that in mind before throwing those old predictions back in my face. They're not the "gotcha" you think they are.



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In accordance to the VGC forum rules, §8.5, I hereby exercise my right to demand to be left alone regarding the subject of the effects of the pandemic on video game sales (i.e., "COVID bump").

Shadow1980 said:

I missed this the other day since I don't spend much time here anymore (lack of sales data outside of Japan has killed a lot of sales discussion), I spent my time on Saturday dealing with mod reports, and I've been busy with personal stuff most of the rest of the time.

Anyway, however you define "solid release schedule," simply having a lot of games in total, even notable ones, isn't enough in and of itself to prevent significant declines. For example, in their last two years before being replaced, the 360 & PS3 had quite a few notable titles, including Mass Effect 3, regular franchises like CoD, Madden, and Assassin's Creed, exclusives like Halo 4 and The Last of Us, and of course the monster that was GTA5. They also had countless other less popular titles. Despite this, they had significant drops in those post-peak years. The 360 & PS3 dropped 27% & 24% respectively in the U.S. in 2012, and another 42.5% & 36.5% in 2013. Even after they were replaced they still got solid support (cross-gen being commonplace on PS & Xbox), yet that didn't prevent their decline from accelerating (-56.7% for the 360 and -65.7% for the PS3 in 2014 in the U.S.), nor did it prevent them from selling fewer units from Nov. 2013 on through the end of 2016 than they did in the 12 months before Nov. 2013. In those last 38 months of tracking their combined sales were ~5.4M vs. ~7.3M combined in the 12 months prior to replacement month.

I could point to a bunch of other systems as well, including Nintendo systems, and make the same observations about them having no shortage of games overall as well as more than a few notable titles yet still experiencing significant and sometimes very sharp declines. Nearly every system starts to have significant declines after it peaks, and those drops are usually more pronounced after the system is replaced (the only notable exception to the latter was the PS2). The accelerated post-replacement decline is especially pronounced with Nintendo systems, which is why this year is crucial for the Switch for its ability to pass potential future milestones. Despite its popularity, the Wii was dead in the water after the Wii U was released, and even the juggernaut that was the DS still saw shipments decline by two-thirds year-over-year in CY2011 and then another 88% the following year, and that's from a staggering 19.46M units shipped worldwide in CY2010, far better than any other Nintendo system in its last year. Even if the Switch ships another 10-12M this year, it could easily ship fewer than 5M units from 2025 onward. That's why I think it'll be close, and why passing the PS2 (which will require selling at least 5M more than the DS) is unlikely.

You and I clearly have different opinions on how fast the Switch will decline, and we just aren't going to see eye to eye on it. Hell, I probably am wrong regarding the DS, but I'm a stubborn old goat who'd still like to see a bit of vindication after the absolutely unnecessary abuse I got on this forum back in 2020-21. So let's leave it at that, shall we? Since we're just repeating ourselves every time a thread like this pops up, this will be the last time I discuss the matter until probably well after the Switch 2 releases and dust is starting to settle. Everybody already knows where I stand on the matter, and it's a waste of time to keep re-litigating it every couple of months.

Oh, and regarding my 2019 prediction for the Switch, I was far from the only one at the time who though it would "only" get to 100M. Prior to March 2020, not a single solitary soul had any clue how much the Switch was going to blow up that year. Back in January 2020, over half the respondents on a poll on this site felt the Switch wouldn't pass the PS4, and only 11.5% correctly guessed it would pass the PS4 in the latter half of 2022. I mean sure, the Switch was beating the PS4 by a 2-to-1 margin in Japan at that point, but in the U.S. it only just started consistently outperforming the PS4 in Q2 2019 and not by some massive amount (Switch LTD sales were 10% ahead of the PS4's, not counting the latter's launch quarter), and in Europe it was running a massive deficit against the PS4. Given that the board was split on whether the Switch could beat the PS4, the number of people who thought it could be the DS should have been even lower (a reasonable guess giving the massive LTD deficit against the DS the Switch had at the time).

2020 was an unprecedented year. Over on Era, the average prediction for 2020 sales in the U.S. had the Switch down slightly, with several sub-6M predictions and the most optimistic prediction being 6.9M. It ended up selling nearly 9M. Everybody got it very wrong with predictions for that year, and we all know why. Back in 2019, anybody could have been excused for thinking that the Switch had no shot at reach the DS or even that 2019 could have been the Switch's peak year. Predictions that the Switch would sell 150M+ were the outlier back then, not the consensus, even here on VGC. Keep that in mind before throwing those old predictions back in my face. They're not the "gotcha" you think they are.

We are only one month away from getting Nintendo's forecast for the fiscal year ending March 2025, so the question whether or not Switch will pass the DS will probably be settled quickly.

For lifetime predictions in 2019 I was using the 100m mark, not 150m. That's a big difference, so the "gotcha" is fine.

RolStoppable said:

In 2019 you doubted that Switch could pass 100m, later you doubted that Switch could pass the PS4, then 140m would have been too much of an ask in your mind.

You keep insisting that Switch is bound to decline significantly, hence why year after year you had to adjust your expectations upwards. The next target in line (DS lifetime sales) is the same story. It's indeed stubbornness that is at play here, but you are right that we don't need to continue here right now. We both can easily wait a month for a clearer picture.



Legend11 correctly predicted that GTA IV will outsell Super Smash Bros. Brawl. I was wrong.

Luigi's Mansion is a pretty big franchise in its own right. Luigi's Mansion 3 has sold 14 million copies. It's just not talked about as much as other franchises online.



The world belongs to you-Pan America

Why are you all still doubting on King Switch?

The successor was pushed back for 2nd time because the great sales



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Shadow1980 said:
RolStoppable said:

No, I don't expect Paper Mario and Luigi's Mansion to move a ton of hardware, because that's not how it works to begin with. The two of us have had discussions about Switch's sales momentum a few times in the last several years, and every time I've pointed out Switch's overall more than solid release schedule from first and third parties which will prevent sales from having a massive decline. In 2019 you doubted that Switch could pass 100m, later you doubted that Switch could pass the PS4, then 140m would have been too much of an ask in your mind. You know my argument already, so my response to the first half of your post can be condensed to me saying that the same logic will continue to hold true.

Switch is on pace to exceed Nintendo's projected 141.1m LTD mark by March 2024 and they'll likely forecast a figure of ~11m units for the fiscal year ending March 2025, because Switch's successor will hardly have an impact in the upcoming fiscal year. That's a decline of ~30% after FY23 declined by only ~15%. That will put Switch's LTD by March 2025 at 152m; the DS's lifetime figure stands at 154.02m. An additional mere 2m after an 11m year aren't a challenge, so I don't need to go into detail for each region. Try to run a shipment forecast for yourself and you should realize how hard it is to keep Switch below the DS in lifetime sales.

I missed this the other day since I don't spend much time here anymore (lack of sales data outside of Japan has killed a lot of sales discussion), I spent my time on Saturday dealing with mod reports, and I've been busy with personal stuff most of the rest of the time.

Anyway, however you define "solid release schedule," simply having a lot of games in total, even notable ones, isn't enough in and of itself to prevent significant declines. For example, in their last two years before being replaced, the 360 & PS3 had quite a few notable titles, including Mass Effect 3, regular franchises like CoD, Madden, and Assassin's Creed, exclusives like Halo 4 and The Last of Us, and of course the monster that was GTA5. They also had countless other less popular titles. Despite this, they had significant drops in those post-peak years. The 360 & PS3 dropped 27% & 24% respectively in the U.S. in 2012, and another 42.5% & 36.5% in 2013. Even after they were replaced they still got solid support (cross-gen being commonplace on PS & Xbox), yet that didn't prevent their decline from accelerating (-56.7% for the 360 and -65.7% for the PS3 in 2014 in the U.S.), nor did it prevent them from selling fewer units from Nov. 2013 on through the end of 2016 than they did in the 12 months before Nov. 2013. In those last 38 months of tracking their combined sales were ~5.4M vs. ~7.3M combined in the 12 months prior to replacement month.

I could point to a bunch of other systems as well, including Nintendo systems, and make the same observations about them having no shortage of games overall as well as more than a few notable titles yet still experiencing significant and sometimes very sharp declines. Nearly every system starts to have significant declines after it peaks, and those drops are usually more pronounced after the system is replaced (the only notable exception to the latter was the PS2). The accelerated post-replacement decline is especially pronounced with Nintendo systems, which is why this year is crucial for the Switch for its ability to pass potential future milestones. Despite its popularity, the Wii was dead in the water after the Wii U was released, and even the juggernaut that was the DS still saw shipments decline by two-thirds year-over-year in CY2011 and then another 88% the following year, and that's from a staggering 19.46M units shipped worldwide in CY2010, far better than any other Nintendo system in its last year. Even if the Switch ships another 10-12M this year, it could easily ship fewer than 5M units from 2025 onward. That's why I think it'll be close, and why passing the PS2 (which will require selling at least 5M more than the DS) is unlikely.

You and I clearly have different opinions on how fast the Switch will decline, and we just aren't going to see eye to eye on it. Hell, I probably am wrong regarding the DS, but I'm a stubborn old goat who'd still like to see a bit of vindication after the absolutely unnecessary abuse I got on this forum back in 2020-21. So let's leave it at that, shall we? Since we're just repeating ourselves every time a thread like this pops up, this will be the last time I discuss the matter until probably well after the Switch 2 releases and dust is starting to settle. Everybody already knows where I stand on the matter, and it's a waste of time to keep re-litigating it every couple of months.

Oh, and regarding my 2019 prediction for the Switch, I was far from the only one at the time who though it would "only" get to 100M. Prior to March 2020, not a single solitary soul had any clue how much the Switch was going to blow up that year. Back in January 2020, over half the respondents on a poll on this site felt the Switch wouldn't pass the PS4, and only 11.5% correctly guessed it would pass the PS4 in the latter half of 2022. I mean sure, the Switch was beating the PS4 by a 2-to-1 margin in Japan at that point, but in the U.S. it only just started consistently outperforming the PS4 in Q2 2019 and not by some massive amount (Switch LTD sales were 10% ahead of the PS4's, not counting the latter's launch quarter), and in Europe it was running a massive deficit against the PS4. Given that the board was split on whether the Switch could beat the PS4, the number of people who thought it could be the DS should have been even lower (a reasonable guess giving the massive LTD deficit against the DS the Switch had at the time).

2020 was an unprecedented year. Over on Era, the average prediction for 2020 sales in the U.S. had the Switch down slightly, with several sub-6M predictions and the most optimistic prediction being 6.9M. It ended up selling nearly 9M. Everybody got it very wrong with predictions for that year, and we all know why. Back in 2019, anybody could have been excused for thinking that the Switch had no shot at reach the DS or even that 2019 could have been the Switch's peak year. Predictions that the Switch would sell 150M+ were the outlier back then, not the consensus, even here on VGC. Keep that in mind before throwing those old predictions back in my face. They're not the "gotcha" you think they are.

RolStoppable said:

We are only one month away from getting Nintendo's forecast for the fiscal year ending March 2025, so the question whether or not Switch will pass the DS will probably be settled quickly.

For lifetime predictions in 2019 I was using the 100m mark, not 150m. That's a big difference, so the "gotcha" is fine.

RolStoppable said:

In 2019 you doubted that Switch could pass 100m, later you doubted that Switch could pass the PS4, then 140m would have been too much of an ask in your mind.

You keep insisting that Switch is bound to decline significantly, hence why year after year you had to adjust your expectations upwards. The next target in line (DS lifetime sales) is the same story. It's indeed stubbornness that is at play here, but you are right that we don't need to continue here right now. We both can easily wait a month for a clearer picture.

Unfortunately, the sceptics will always find another turn: If Nintendo predicts 10m (or even 11m) for FY2025, the sceptics will quickly point at the fact that Nintendo has a history of missing the mark by several millions (in both directions). So, for them, if Nintendo predicts 10-11m, it is within the realms of possibility that Nintendo will miss the mark badly and only ship ~6m. By the way, this would be a mismatch of 40%-45.46%! If Nintendo would ship ~7m it would still be a mismatch of 30%-36.36%.

Let me explain why expecting to missing the mark by that much is hogwash!: Missing the mark by several millions in the launch year of a console is plausible as it's hard to predict how much the demand for a new console really is and if you will be really able to produce enough. The same is true for a successful console in its strong years (all the way up to the peak and past peak down to about the 15m yearly shipped mark): Again, missing the mark by several millions is plausible as you either overestimated or underestimated the hype and in the latter case maybe you couldn't produce enough. But once you come down close to the 10m yearly shipped mark, i.e. late in the lifetime of a successful console, you certainly will not miss the prediction by several millions. At that point, missing by 1m is already much. That late in the lifecycle you have no incentives to come out with a bold prediction as the successor console is already knocking on the door, your focus is clearly on the successor, leaving no motivation for ambitious targets for the old console. Therefore, that late in the lifecycle, the prediction will be most realistic. Therefore, whatever number Nintendo will predict for FY2025, it definitely will be matched within an error margin of about +/- 1.5m.



I've been saying it for a few years it would do it. I think it'll easily do it



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Nintendo would have to work actively against selling any more Switch consoles for it not to outsell DS and PS2. I don't see that happening. Another 20 million for the most successful console ever seems like a non-issue to me. But what the hell do I know. I'm no expert or something.

I also can see the Switch selling for quite some time from here on out. I could see Nintendo just keeping it around as the budget option when a new console comes around. Because why the hell not? The Switch is more than capable enough for smaller games and hardware power was never important for sales. Just look at the Game Boy. That thing sold like hot cakes in the late 90s, although the tech was a decade old and it didn't even have a coloured screen. Pokémon was all that it needed.

So if we're looking at a possible future with the Switch selling alongside a newer model, I can even see the Switch reaching 200 million or something. I don't see a need for Nintendo to just abolish the whole platform they built up in the last few years. Maye we can think of the next device as a sort of upgrade we saw from the Game Boy to the Game Boy Colour. It still plays basically the same games, but you would need the newer model for the newest titles. And since we count Game Boy and Game Boy Colour together, wouldn't we do the same with a possible Super Switch or something? Why not, all the way to 300 million!

I know, I know, I'm just daydreaming by now, but that is fun sometimes too. =P



唯一無二のRolStoppableに認められた、VGCの任天堂ファミリーの正式メンバーです。光栄に思います。

It should do but even if it stalls badly, I think to get the record Nintendo should do what they don't do and that is slash the console in half once the switch successor comes out. It will fly off the shelves to people who can't afford to pay the full price of a console.



 

 

Cobretti2 said:

It should do but even if it stalls badly, I think to get the record Nintendo should do what they don't do and that is slash the console in half once the switch successor comes out. It will fly off the shelves to people who can't afford to pay the full price of a console.

Agreed, but realistically I can see them slashing maybe $100 off the Switch and OLED, with $50 slash on the Lite.



Lifetime Sales Predictions 

Switch: 160 million (was 120 million, then 140 million, then 150 million)

PS5: 130 million (was 124 million)

Xbox Series X/S: 54 million (was 60 million, then 57 million)

"The way to accomplish great things, is to be indefatigable and never rest till the thing is accomplished." - Joseph Smith Jr.