By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Movies & TV - Race swapping and whitewashing

Soundwave said:
curl-6 said:

Whitewashing is largely a thing of the past at this point; the current trend is going in the opposite direction, with people of colour being swapped into white characters and stories in a way that's quite tokenistic and lazy.

If representation isn't authentic and reflective of society, then it's nothing but skin deep. Tokenism is not genuine.

There's also the risk that if you push too far with noble intentions, you end up overrepresenting; for example, in the UK in 2020, it was found that 22% of roles on TV went to ethnic minorities, which might sound like under-repesentation, until you factor in that they make up 12% of the UK's population, so their presence on TV is actually double their real world presence.

Ideally, representation on screen should accurately reflect society, so that everyone gets a fair and democratic share.

Sorry but I call bullshit on a lot of this. Firstly how many of those British shows have a non-white lead? Probably not 20+% of them. 

The fact of the matter is when it comes to TV/movies, white people have been massively over represented to the point where the issue actually is it's like a spoiled child that is used to all the attention now throwing a shit fit when they realize they have to share once in a while. 

Who really is actually being "hurt" by Ariel being black in 1/20 times Disney has had a non-white "princess"? The people whining most loudly about this are coming from the place of the "status quo is white people in the lead in everything all the time and anything different is an affront to me" basically, the spoiled brat of a kid who is used to be catered to non-stop now throwing a crying fit because they're realizing they have to share with other kids on the playground once in a while. 

You can't over correct because of past mistakes, you learn from them and not repeat them. Over compensation just creates a negative effect.

The issue with Ariel is like any Gamer who grew up in that time, nostalgia.  When you remake something it will always be subject to some argument just like with games. You have to wait long enough for the people to die off before it really becomes a non issue, or just accept there will always be backlash and just ignore it.

The biggest problem with Ariel is the media, they went out and found all the reaction videos of black people say shit like "oh may God she is black" and getting excited about, rather then OMG they picked a great actress for the roll. I mean you fuelling a race agenda war there and demeaning the actress, basically implying she got the work cause she's black. It seems to be fuelled mainly by Americans.

In 80s 90s 00s, it wasn't a big issue, people didn't seem to make a deal about black actors being in movies etc now every movie seems to be under a public microscope to a point these movies are starting to feel like token gestures to be inclusive. The movies from the 80s 90s 00s, I never felt when watching "oh look here is our token coloured person", for some common sense reason those movie scripts were written in a way that politics of race didn't appear in them and guess what they were enjoyable to watch because those actors did a great job. I didn't have one single thought about a coloured person being out of place. Now we get stupid statements like we made Cleopatra black in a documentary series cause well you know she lived in Africa so she couldn't be white". Lot of scientific evidence based arguments went into that conclusion. It is so hard not to think these new movies are token gestures when they slam it in our heads via media outlets.



 

 

Around the Network

EDIT: DOUBLE POST DELETED

Last edited by Cobretti2 - on 11 July 2023

 

 

Soundwave said:
curl-6 said:

This status quo you're referring to is the past, not the present. Recent studies show that in the US for example Black people already comprised about 13% of lead roles in cable shows, which is pretty much a match for their share of the population.

If you're say 13% of the population, getting 13% of the representation isn't underrepresentation, its democratically proportionate. Likewise, if you're 75% of the population, then 75% of the representation isn't overrepresentation.

Funny how there's only an outcry about this when PoC get a few blockbuster lead roles (this year specifically one of the few in Hollywood's history where you can probably point to more than 2 blockbuster movies headlined by a PoC actor). 

But when Jake Gylennhal was Prince of Persia, and Emma Stone was cast to play an Asian woman, and Robert Downey Jr. was in blackface that was no big deal and/or hilarious or just "get over it". Curious how when the shoe is on the other foot there's a group of people (not saying people in this thread but we know the types that are out there) that are having a meltdown like a toddler. A black Ariel and a black-latino Spider-Man is just too much to cope with. 

The demographics have shifted far more than that too, for Americans under 18 (ie: the future generation of content consumption), that crowd is now actually so-called "minority majority", meaning there are more non-white kids in the US than white kids. For 30 and under the demographics are very diverse still. If anything, as I've said Latinos are very underrepresented on screen, and they are the no.1 theater going demographic in the US but they barely get any love. Hollywood is only now realizing black people not named Eddie or Will can be a lead in a movie, it will probably take another 15-20 years for Latinos to get the same treatment. 

The fact is though most big budget or even mid budget or even low budget Hollywood movies are still white-leads. Indiana Jones, check. The new Star Wars had Finn and then embarrassingly sidelined him after teasing him as a Jedi type in the trailers. The Flash, check. Barbie check. Oppenheimer check. Guardians of the Galaxy check. Mission: Impossible. Even the Fast series became minority drive less by design and more by tragedy, Paul Walker passing away made the franchise Vin Diesel centric instead of the two of them being co-leads (and the original movie itself being basically a "white dude becomes cool with inner city types" fantasy to begin with). 

For the person out there that's getting hysterical over dark melanin in their blockbusters, relax and breathe. There's plenty of white bread in movies and TV still, the majority thereof in fact. It's just going to be going forward you're going to have to learn to share rather than having everything tailored exactly to just one demographics over and over again ... it's like a child that's gotten used to being an only having it explained to them that with a new brother or sister they're going to have to learn to share things and can't be the center of everything all the time anymore. 

There was plenty of criticism over white actors playing POC roles, the term "whitewashing" itself was coined out of widespread criticism of the practise, the phrase goes back to the 1990s.

I don't think any reasonable person would say that Black people, or Asian people, or Latinos, or for that matter women or gay people shouldn't get representation, just that representation should be authentic and reflective of society rather than lazy tokenism.



Cobretti2 said:
Soundwave said:

Sorry but I call bullshit on a lot of this. Firstly how many of those British shows have a non-white lead? Probably not 20+% of them. 

The fact of the matter is when it comes to TV/movies, white people have been massively over represented to the point where the issue actually is it's like a spoiled child that is used to all the attention now throwing a shit fit when they realize they have to share once in a while. 

Who really is actually being "hurt" by Ariel being black in 1/20 times Disney has had a non-white "princess"? The people whining most loudly about this are coming from the place of the "status quo is white people in the lead in everything all the time and anything different is an affront to me" basically, the spoiled brat of a kid who is used to be catered to non-stop now throwing a crying fit because they're realizing they have to share with other kids on the playground once in a while. 

You can't over correct because of past mistakes, you learn from them and not repeat them. Over compensation just creates a negative effect.

The issue with Ariel is like any Gamer who grew up in that time, nostalgia.  When you remake something it will always be subject to some argument just like with games. You have to wait long enough for the people to die off before it really becomes a non issue, or just accept there will always be backlash and just ignore it.

The biggest problem with Ariel is the media, they went out and found all the reaction videos of black people say shit like "oh may God she is black" and getting excited about, rather then OMG they picked a great actress for the roll. I mean you fuelling a race agenda war there and demeaning the actress, basically implying she got the work cause she's black. It seems to be fuelled mainly by Americans.

In 80s 90s 00s, it wasn't a big issue, people didn't seem to make a deal about black actors being in movies etc now every movie seems to be under a public microscope to a point these movies are starting to feel like token gestures to be inclusive. The movies from the 80s 90s 00s, I never felt when watching "oh look here is our token coloured person", for some common sense reason those movie scripts were written in a way that politics of race didn't appear in them and guess what they were enjoyable to watch because those actors did a great job. I didn't have one single thought about a coloured person being out of place. Now we get stupid statements like we made Cleopatra black in a documentary series cause well you know she lived in Africa so she couldn't be white". Lot of scientific evidence based arguments went into that conclusion. It is so hard not to think these new movies are token gestures when they slam it in our heads via media outlets.

Yeah those uppity negroes getting too excited about a black Ariel, really needed to be put in their place and calm down. How dare they be excited over a black Ariel, obviously that's the problem. Is it possible she got the part by the way simply because she was the best for the role? How many girls her age can act AND sing at that level? *crickets*. 

In the 80s/90s/00s the standard "norm" was all-white or predominantly white cast. PoC just accepted that as the norm because that was all Hollywood would give them. 

The truth is it's plainly transparent what the issue is ... white people are used to movies catering to them 99% of the time with white actors being the leads most of the time, with the "token exception" for the uber-talented black guy like an occasional Eddie Murphy here or Will Smith there (usually one of these guys per decade, lol). Now that a *few* big movies are casting in a more diverse way, guess what? Some people are not happy, it's plainly predictable why. 

The messaging is clear ... black people, brown people, Asian people aren't supposed to be leading in Hollywood movies. They should know their place in the corner and stay there, unless they are clearly defined genre-tropes ... like a Chinese guy leading a kung fu movie, OK (though a Van Damme or Seagal or Jason Statham are also welcome to take those parts too, no problem there). But if the colored folk dare try to step out of that box, it's a problem. It's "tokenism" now apparently, but clearly not when it's done the other way around. 

Last edited by Soundwave - on 11 July 2023

curl-6 said:
Soundwave said:

Funny how there's only an outcry about this when PoC get a few blockbuster lead roles (this year specifically one of the few in Hollywood's history where you can probably point to more than 2 blockbuster movies headlined by a PoC actor). 

But when Jake Gylennhal was Prince of Persia, and Emma Stone was cast to play an Asian woman, and Robert Downey Jr. was in blackface that was no big deal and/or hilarious or just "get over it". Curious how when the shoe is on the other foot there's a group of people (not saying people in this thread but we know the types that are out there) that are having a meltdown like a toddler. A black Ariel and a black-latino Spider-Man is just too much to cope with. 

The demographics have shifted far more than that too, for Americans under 18 (ie: the future generation of content consumption), that crowd is now actually so-called "minority majority", meaning there are more non-white kids in the US than white kids. For 30 and under the demographics are very diverse still. If anything, as I've said Latinos are very underrepresented on screen, and they are the no.1 theater going demographic in the US but they barely get any love. Hollywood is only now realizing black people not named Eddie or Will can be a lead in a movie, it will probably take another 15-20 years for Latinos to get the same treatment. 

The fact is though most big budget or even mid budget or even low budget Hollywood movies are still white-leads. Indiana Jones, check. The new Star Wars had Finn and then embarrassingly sidelined him after teasing him as a Jedi type in the trailers. The Flash, check. Barbie check. Oppenheimer check. Guardians of the Galaxy check. Mission: Impossible. Even the Fast series became minority drive less by design and more by tragedy, Paul Walker passing away made the franchise Vin Diesel centric instead of the two of them being co-leads (and the original movie itself being basically a "white dude becomes cool with inner city types" fantasy to begin with). 

For the person out there that's getting hysterical over dark melanin in their blockbusters, relax and breathe. There's plenty of white bread in movies and TV still, the majority thereof in fact. It's just going to be going forward you're going to have to learn to share rather than having everything tailored exactly to just one demographics over and over again ... it's like a child that's gotten used to being an only having it explained to them that with a new brother or sister they're going to have to learn to share things and can't be the center of everything all the time anymore. 

There was plenty of criticism over white actors playing POC roles, the term "whitewashing" itself was coined out of widespread criticism of the practise, the phrase goes back to the 1990s.

I don't think any reasonable person would say that Black people, or Asian people, or Latinos, or for that matter women or gay people shouldn't get representation, just that representation should be authentic and reflective of society rather than lazy tokenism.

Maybe the term white-washing extends from the 90s, but in practise Hollywood has been doing that since like the 1920s and earlier, lol. Basically since the advent of film. 

Bruce Lee came up with the concept of the TV series Kung-Fu, he wrote as a starring vehicle for himself. Guess what happened. The TV network took the concept, kicked him off it because he was "too Asian" (even though the lead role is a Kung-Fu monk from China) and the role was taken by a white actor (David Carradine). They only gave him a chance in Hollywood movies once he became the biggest star in Asia with Enter the Dragon. And even to this day, you have Quentin Tarantino protraying the real Bruce Lee as a clown-ish idiot in Once Upon A Time In Hollywood who gets beat up by Brad Pitt (lol). 

Gate keeping and keeping colored people out of movie roles for "reasons" has been Hollywood tradition for ages, don't kid yourself. 



Around the Network

Yeah, Im not a fan of race swapping characters. Just seems like a lazy way of adding diversity just for the sake of it. Its just virtue signaling I feel. Not THAT big of a deal when it comes to fictional characters, but historical people is just disrespectful to the person and history itself.



Soundwave said:
curl-6 said:

There was plenty of criticism over white actors playing POC roles, the term "whitewashing" itself was coined out of widespread criticism of the practise, the phrase goes back to the 1990s.

I don't think any reasonable person would say that Black people, or Asian people, or Latinos, or for that matter women or gay people shouldn't get representation, just that representation should be authentic and reflective of society rather than lazy tokenism.

Maybe the term white-washing extends from the 90s, but in practise Hollywood has been doing that since like the 1920s and earlier, lol. Basically since the advent of film. 

Bruce Lee came up with the concept of the TV series Kung-Fu, he wrote as a starring vehicle for himself. Guess what happened. The TV network took the concept, kicked him off it because he was "too Asian" (even though the lead role is a Kung-Fu monk from China) and the role was taken by a white actor (David Carradine). They only gave him a chance in Hollywood movies once he became the biggest star in Asia with Enter the Dragon. And even to this day, you have Quentin Tarantino protraying the real Bruce Lee as a clown-ish idiot in Once Upon A Time In Hollywood who gets beat up by Brad Pitt (lol). 

Gate keeping and keeping colored people out of movie roles for "reasons" has been Hollywood tradition for ages, don't kid yourself. 

I didn't say whitewashing itself started in the 90s. You said the response to white actors being race swapped over POC was "no big deal" or "get over it", but that's not the case for quite some time, people have been complaining about it for decades.

Race swapping established characters, regardless of which direction its in, is just a lazy and tacky practise that people are understandably annoyed by.



Soundwave said:
Cobretti2 said:

You can't over correct because of past mistakes, you learn from them and not repeat them. Over compensation just creates a negative effect.

The issue with Ariel is like any Gamer who grew up in that time, nostalgia.  When you remake something it will always be subject to some argument just like with games. You have to wait long enough for the people to die off before it really becomes a non issue, or just accept there will always be backlash and just ignore it.

The biggest problem with Ariel is the media, they went out and found all the reaction videos of black people say shit like "oh may God she is black" and getting excited about, rather then OMG they picked a great actress for the roll. I mean you fuelling a race agenda war there and demeaning the actress, basically implying she got the work cause she's black. It seems to be fuelled mainly by Americans.

In 80s 90s 00s, it wasn't a big issue, people didn't seem to make a deal about black actors being in movies etc now every movie seems to be under a public microscope to a point these movies are starting to feel like token gestures to be inclusive. The movies from the 80s 90s 00s, I never felt when watching "oh look here is our token coloured person", for some common sense reason those movie scripts were written in a way that politics of race didn't appear in them and guess what they were enjoyable to watch because those actors did a great job. I didn't have one single thought about a coloured person being out of place. Now we get stupid statements like we made Cleopatra black in a documentary series cause well you know she lived in Africa so she couldn't be white". Lot of scientific evidence based arguments went into that conclusion. It is so hard not to think these new movies are token gestures when they slam it in our heads via media outlets.

Yeah those uppity negroes getting too excited about a black Ariel, really needed to be put in their place and calm down. How dare they be excited over a black Ariel, obviously that's the problem. Is it possible she got the part by the way simply because she was the best for the role? How many girls her age can act AND sing at that level? *crickets*. 

In the 80s/90s/00s the standard "norm" was all-white or predominantly white cast. PoC just accepted that as the norm because that was all Hollywood would give them. 

The truth is it's plainly transparent what the issue is ... white people are used to movies catering to them 99% of the time with white actors being the leads most of the time, with the "token exception" for the uber-talented black guy like an occasional Eddie Murphy here or Will Smith there (usually one of these guys per decade, lol). Now that a *few* big movies are casting in a more diverse way, guess what? Some people are not happy, it's plainly predictable why. 

The messaging is clear ... black people, brown people, Asian people aren't supposed to be leading in Hollywood movies. They should know their place in the corner and stay there, unless they are clearly defined genre-tropes ... like a Chinese guy leading a kung fu movie, OK (though a Van Damme or Seagal or Jason Statham are also welcome to take those parts too, no problem there). But if the colored folk dare try to step out of that box, it's a problem. It's "tokenism" now apparently, but clearly not when it's done the other way around. 

I have no problem with people being happy. It's Hollywood and media making a big deal see we did it to make these people happy or speeches about how we doing diversity, look at us we playing our part attitude. They bring race into it by highlighting it rather then just say we picked the actress with the best voice and talent for it.

It is no different then those fake videos of people donating stuff to poor people and putting it up on social media without their approval. I mean fuck I live in the CBD and help homeless people out, but I don't go patting myself on the back for it on social media seeking attention, look at me I donated something to a person of need.

This is why I say it is tokenism, look at me we are the good studio of the industry filling in our coloured quota and letting you all know about it in your face that we doing it (and yes they don't say it in those words they use PR speak). That to me is degrading to the actress. If I was her I would be thinking did they really pick me on my talent or am I a publicity stunt to make Hollywood feel better about itself.

It's no different then women who are on boards of companies that show up for photo opportunities and the men are their smiling shaking their hand, then during the meeting the the same men saying it's ok you don't need to stress about it every time she has something to say in the meeting. Basically tokenism we hire women into power position, but in reality in the background she doesn't have input and starts to wonder why is she in this role. Now don't take this as ALL work places are like that, but there are some that still exist with that attitude.

So the point I am making is, we need to stop dividing ourselves by race, gender sexuality etc and focus on talent and attributes of the person who was given the job. Talk about actors for their talent and not try to stir the pot which leads to doubt of that person's ability. The media has no place in bring up skin colour for any of their articles as a talking point as all it does it fuel hate.



 

 

Cobretti2 said:
Soundwave said:

Yeah those uppity negroes getting too excited about a black Ariel, really needed to be put in their place and calm down. How dare they be excited over a black Ariel, obviously that's the problem. Is it possible she got the part by the way simply because she was the best for the role? How many girls her age can act AND sing at that level? *crickets*. 

In the 80s/90s/00s the standard "norm" was all-white or predominantly white cast. PoC just accepted that as the norm because that was all Hollywood would give them. 

The truth is it's plainly transparent what the issue is ... white people are used to movies catering to them 99% of the time with white actors being the leads most of the time, with the "token exception" for the uber-talented black guy like an occasional Eddie Murphy here or Will Smith there (usually one of these guys per decade, lol). Now that a *few* big movies are casting in a more diverse way, guess what? Some people are not happy, it's plainly predictable why. 

The messaging is clear ... black people, brown people, Asian people aren't supposed to be leading in Hollywood movies. They should know their place in the corner and stay there, unless they are clearly defined genre-tropes ... like a Chinese guy leading a kung fu movie, OK (though a Van Damme or Seagal or Jason Statham are also welcome to take those parts too, no problem there). But if the colored folk dare try to step out of that box, it's a problem. It's "tokenism" now apparently, but clearly not when it's done the other way around. 

I have no problem with people being happy. It's Hollywood and media making a big deal see we did it to make these people happy or speeches about how we doing diversity, look at us we playing our part attitude. They bring race into it by highlighting it rather then just say we picked the actress with the best voice and talent for it.

It is no different then those fake videos of people donating stuff to poor people and putting it up on social media without their approval. I mean fuck I live in the CBD and help homeless people out, but I don't go patting myself on the back for it on social media seeking attention, look at me I donated something to a person of need.

This is why I say it is tokenism, look at me we are the good studio of the industry filling in our coloured quota and letting you all know about it in your face that we doing it (and yes they don't say it in those words they use PR speak). That to me is degrading to the actress. If I was her I would be thinking did they really pick me on my talent or am I a publicity stunt to make Hollywood feel better about itself.

It's no different then women who are on boards of companies that show up for photo opportunities and the men are their smiling shaking their hand, then during the meeting the the same men saying it's ok you don't need to stress about it every time she has something to say in the meeting. Basically tokenism we hire women into power position, but in reality in the background she doesn't have input and starts to wonder why is she in this role. Now don't take this as ALL work places are like that, but there are some that still exist with that attitude.

So the point I am making is, we need to stop dividing ourselves by race, gender sexuality etc and focus on talent and attributes of the person who was given the job. Talk about actors for their talent and not try to stir the pot which leads to doubt of that person's ability. The media has no place in bring up skin colour for any of their articles as a talking point as all it does it fuel hate.

Or maybe the people who are crying that loudly about a black Ariel are simply jerk offs? 

Again if you got one kid on a playground of other kids who is crying and whining about everything every time something doesn't 100% revolve around them or isn't done around them or wants every day to be their birthday and no other kid to have a chance ... and then the parent just sheepishly sits there and shakes their shoulders and say "well it's because they had too much sugar for breakfast" ... nah lady, it ain't the sugar, it's that your like snot nosed kid is a spoiled piece of shit that doesn't understand not everything on the planet revolves around them. 

Hollywood has been incredibly white-only for decades, moreso than just about any other entertainment medium. The music industry, the sports industry haven't been like that for decades, but movies, basically unless you're Will Smith or Eddie Murphy or Denzel Washington was a whites only club and big budget fantasy blockbusters especially until very, very recently. And even today they are wildly still overwhelmingly white leads in these movies even though the demographics for these movies are no longer white only. 

Like you even look at the opening weekend demographic split for the Super Mario movie (the no.1 movie of the year) ... the white audience proportionately was below Hispanics, Asians, and black audiences. The white demo in the US is aging and doesn't even go out to see films much anymore. 



Leynos said:

Redheads are my fave and Hollywood has gotten rid of them. True natural redheads are a minority but don't tell Hollywood that.

Perhaps you're looking forward to the new Red Sonja film?