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Forums - Gaming Discussion - (Business Perspective) Does MS really need Xbox Hardware?

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No, m$ don't need hardware, they need to go back to what they were before which is 3rd party



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Pemalite said:
Azzanation said:

If you are an Xbox fan, I understand you aren't happy if Xbox walks, but i am just saying the obvious.

I don't care if Xbox walks. I own Sony and Nintendo consoles as well, but primarily I am a PC gamer.

I do care about bringing my physical library forwards.
If Microsoft cans support for physical games or cans making a successor console, then my wallet will vote in kind.

Azzanation said:

The market is not big enough to sustain all 3 companies

The console market has sustained 3 companies just fine since Microsoft entered the market decades ago.
Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony were all profitable during the 8th gen... 7th gen all 3 console manufacturers had healthy console sales with a relatively competitive split in marketshare.


The Console Market is trending towards 25~ billion in sales and PC market is trending towards 30~ billion.
https://www.statista.com/outlook/cmo/consumer-electronics/gaming-equipment/game-consoles/worldwide#revenue

Which means it is big enough to sustain all 3.

You keep propagating this lie, but we all know it is false.

The reason why the Xbox Series is imploding is because:

1) No GREAT exclusives.
2) Higher pricing.
3) Shit naming. - Xbox Series? Common. WiiU was a better name.
4) Removal of physical games from game stores which also impacts brand awareness.

I honestly feel Microsoft needed to play it perfect to actually compete with sony and they had the chance with the ps3 being a mess of a system and actually did great but after that they actually made bigger  ps3 like mistake with xbox one being much weaker and being more expensive for kinect, then also trying to lock games to online only it was wrap that gen along with sony making much better exclusives and Microsoft making all games on PC day one they literally killed the brand.    



zeldaring said:
Azzanation said:

It won't be sustainable. The customers will eventually leave.

This all depends if they actually make big hits that sell systems. The games coming to ps5 6 months or a year later won't make  much of a difference now if they come the same date i could see it being a big probelm.

Thats an assumption. N64 had the best 1st party games of its generation by a landslide and only sold 1/3 of the PS1. GameCube was also noted for having amazing 1st party games. Quality isn't the reason to sell, its marketing and perception. You can sell crap to people if you market it extremely well. Unfortunately for this industry, Xbox has run its race, it's only a matter of time before they pull out. 



DonFerrari said:
LurkerJ said:

Someone needs to feed ChatGPT the recent and the latest on the Surface continuous free fall, this is cute otherwise. 

It is so ridiculous because ChatGTP is basically doing a strawman and deflection.

You are criticizing MS failure on the customer market. It uses examples of failed products as if they were successful and also use enterprise market. I would say the only customer example it uses of success is Windows, but that have been a market they dominate for over 30 years so it isn't something you can say they entered and won, they were already there from start (and won with a different time, philosophy and team).

Oh Don, tell us you hate MS without telling us you hate MS. The fact you are literally trying to defend Lurker says enough. 



Pemalite said:
Azzanation said:

If you are an Xbox fan, I understand you aren't happy if Xbox walks, but i am just saying the obvious.

I don't care if Xbox walks. I own Sony and Nintendo consoles as well, but primarily I am a PC gamer.

I do care about bringing my physical library forwards.
If Microsoft cans support for physical games or cans making a successor console, then my wallet will vote in kind.

Azzanation said:

The market is not big enough to sustain all 3 companies

The console market has sustained 3 companies just fine since Microsoft entered the market decades ago.
Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony were all profitable during the 8th gen... 7th gen all 3 console manufacturers had healthy console sales with a relatively competitive split in marketshare.


The Console Market is trending towards 25~ billion in sales and PC market is trending towards 30~ billion.
https://www.statista.com/outlook/cmo/consumer-electronics/gaming-equipment/game-consoles/worldwide#revenue

Which means it is big enough to sustain all 3.

You keep propagating this lie, but we all know it is false.

The reason why the Xbox Series is imploding is because:

1) No GREAT exclusives.
2) Higher pricing.
3) Shit naming. - Xbox Series? Common. WiiU was a better name.
4) Removal of physical games from game stores which also impacts brand awareness.

First Point: Exactly, people vote with their wallets, you don't need inflated competition for that.

Second Point: Your list of companies says otherwise. Its never been the same 3 companies from the beginning of the console hardware market. That shows hardware companies cannot sustain or care and drop out of hardware over time. Example: Sega lasted 4 generations before dropping out, Xbox is on their 4th gen now, and rumors are strong of them going third party. 

Also to correct you, PS3 lost $5b and 360 lost $3b

Xbox 360 and PS3 losses total $8 billion, ex-Sony employee paints grim future | VG247

That was at a time when competition was at its strongest. When all 3 do well, the industry struggled. The industry is only big enough for 2 successful consoles while the 3rd stays a distance 3rd and investors and shareholders see no purpose staying invested, which is why we continue hearing Xbox going third party since the XB1 era. They may be profiable with the XB1 and XSS/XSX, but it's not enough to keep the suits interested.

Let me answer your 4 points,

1) N64, GameCube, WiiU, DreamCast, Xbox all had amazing games, and they were nowhere near the market leader. So no, great exclusives arent enough to sell consoles.

2) Higher Pricing? It's the same price as its competitors, if anything Xbox has cheaper alternatives like GamePass and the Series S.

3) Naming has nothing to do with sales, the average consumer does not care.

4) Removing of Physical games has only just been rumored, Xbox hasn't been selling well since the XB1 which offered physical games and it's the same as this gen.

Tell me why you are defending Xbox walking out of the hardware market? There is more than enough competition to keep companies humble, and like you mentioned before, Steam competes as well. What are the advantages of Xbox staying in aside from dividing an audience. 

My opinion, I want to see the gaming industry become a 1 box plays all like how PC operate. None of these sealed hardware consoles forcing people to buy them to play some games and divides the players and friends. Gaming should be like the movie industry where any DvD, Blu-Ray and 4k player can play any movie aslong as its compatible. (ie: 4k disks don't work in a DvD drive) 

Companies shouldn't be moneyhatting games to force people to buy a box they don't want. These companies should instead be trying to make the best hardware you can buy to convince customers to buy them over the other brands. Locking content is the cheap way of avoiding building good hardware. Thats just my opinion.  

Last edited by Azzanation - on 09 February 2024

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Pemalite said:
Azzanation said:

If you are an Xbox fan, I understand you aren't happy if Xbox walks, but i am just saying the obvious.

I don't care if Xbox walks. I own Sony and Nintendo consoles as well, but primarily I am a PC gamer.

I do care about bringing my physical library forwards.
If Microsoft cans support for physical games or cans making a successor console, then my wallet will vote in kind.

Azzanation said:

The market is not big enough to sustain all 3 companies

The console market has sustained 3 companies just fine since Microsoft entered the market decades ago.
Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony were all profitable during the 8th gen... 7th gen all 3 console manufacturers had healthy console sales with a relatively competitive split in marketshare.


The Console Market is trending towards 25~ billion in sales and PC market is trending towards 30~ billion.
https://www.statista.com/outlook/cmo/consumer-electronics/gaming-equipment/game-consoles/worldwide#revenue

Which means it is big enough to sustain all 3.

You keep propagating this lie, but we all know it is false.

The reason why the Xbox Series is imploding is because:

1) No GREAT exclusives.
2) Higher pricing.
3) Shit naming. - Xbox Series? Common. WiiU was a better name.
4) Removal of physical games from game stores which also impacts brand awareness.

5) Lack of focus on markets outsides of the US. (sub/dub and quality of translations, marketing, support (if theres hardware/user issues)

6) Day and Date games, to PC (it has to have cost them atleast a few console sales)

7) Gamepass has conditioned users to wait for games to come to gamepass, and not buy them.
      (total gamepass subs, then limits how many games the system can then have and be successfull there)

8) Buying massive publishers like EA/Activision, where they make alot of their money on other platforms (not xbox). 
    You dont spend $80-100 bn, only to see these bussiness shrink, and their profits collapse. So this basically forces them to go 3rd party.

(Im assumeing by imploding, you mean them perphaps transitioning to be less dependent on the xbox console, and going 3rd party with games)
The consoles (and gamepass) just arnt selling enough, to support them as they are now (with all these dev studios/publishers).

----------


On a side note.
Yes Steam and PC gameing, are competition for Sony, as are Nintendo.
If Sony goes nuts, or greedy, it will push people away as well.

The world isnt ending, if xbox leaves hardware... which it probably wont anytime soon.
Next gen, it might just be a PC with a console OS, sold from 3rd party sellers.



Back to the conversation about Xbox leaving the console market, it might seem surprising at first with Xbox being relatively iconic and a household name that they would want to leave the console market, especially when their past 2 consoles sold relatively well with 50M+, when you look at their history in detail it wouldn't be so suprising to see why Microsoft would want to leave the console market, Xbox the past 4 generations always been trying to just stay afloat in a war that they'll always lose to PS unless PS just hands them the victory.
First off, the main reason why Microsoft got into the console market in the first place is cause they were scared of the PS2 & future Playstations taking over the living room as a multimedia device that could play DVDs/CDs, browse the web and potentially replace the need for a Windows desktop PC, but now it's clear that consoles will never replace PCs in their functions so Microsoft really doesn't need to worry about consoles replacing their PC anymore to keep making consoles.
Even if they want to stick to consoles for profit, they haven't done a pretty terrible job at it all these generations and in reality always been in a losing battle losing billions just to keep up with PS. While the Xbox sales wise was considered a pretty decent success by being able to outsell the GC and put even a small fight against the PS2 with 24M sold, Microsoft would end up losing 4$Billion that generation taking heavy losses on the hardware, marketing, and money-hatting developers just to sell that small of a number of units, any other company would've folded under those losses but Microsoft's high cash is what kept them afloat.
While the Xbox 360 was considered a big success sales wise selling 85M and went toe-to-toe with PS, tbh I feel like the Xbox sold that well more-so cause of Sony screwing up hard rather than people who truly preferred Xbox, and wasn't a sustainable amount of success for the long term. It seems like gen after gen Microsoft just fails to attract the European & Japan markets as much as PS which makes it difficult for them to compete. Despite the PS3 screwing up so hard selling at 800+$ in 2024 inflation standards at launch, having worse online, worse performing multiplats, launched a year later, launched with less must have exclusives like Halo 3, and not having a popular gimmick like the Kinect behind a huge marketing budget, the PS3 was still able to outsell the 360 where the PS3 was able to win it in Europe & Japan despite all it had against it.
But even though the Xbox 360 was a big success sales wise, Microsoft STILL ended up being unprofitable that gen mainly cause of the RROD situation which costed Micrsoft billions to fix to the point where the Xbox 360 wasn't able to recover when it comes to profit.

Now when it comes to the Xbox One, people think that the Kinect, anti-consumer policies, and 100$+ more expensive than the PS4 lost them that gen, and while it did contribute to it, they were bound to lose the gen anyways. Even when Microsoft took away those policies, offered cheaper prices, and a more appealing and powerful console options and redesigns later that gen it did very little to change the tide, which were very similiar things Sony did with the PS3 and PS3 was able to comeback alot better mainly cause Sony always was the favorite in Europe & Japan while Xbox was always in an endless uphill battle just to stay afloat.

I imagine that trying to stay afloat like this with Sony in the console space likely had been expensive for them, since the Xbox One gen they've typically always given more discounts on their hardware taking more and more losses on the hardware just to sell decent, and along with developing games with a limited install base on the Xbox One, may be more detrimental than we may think behind the scenes.
We've already recently seen the Sony/Insomniac leaks where despite the fact that PS is doing crazy successful with the PS4 selling 100M+ and the PS5 on its way to do so as well, Sony is still struggling to maximize their profit at times with certain big games like Rachet & Clank losing money and other titles not meeting profit hopes, forcing lay-offs and Sony to port their exclusives to PC to stay profitable, imagine that with Microsoft with a console install base that's less than half of PS and a company that naturally spends more money than they need too. It's hard to say if this is happening cause Microsoft never reports on profit for their Xbox division, but the fact that they seem to be leaning away from pushing console sales these past few years makes me believe that the console business for them hasn't been great in terms of their profitability hopes.

It's coming to the point where Microsoft was pricing the Xbox Series S at 150$ this past holiday season which is wild to see for a next-gen console in their 3rd year to have a price that low and still get demolished by PS in sales. Even Phil Spencer given quotes as of recent that just seems discouraging on the future of Xbox, even going as far as admitting that even if they release great games wouldn't change the tide for Xbox, it just feels like they have no purpose to compete in console sales when it may be holding them back by taking on losses on hardware and marketing just to sell decently compared to Sony and the Xbox install base isn't big enough for their 1st party sales to be much more profitable compared to just releasing all their software as a 3rd party developer.



javi741 said:

Back to the conversation about Xbox leaving the console market, it might seem surprising at first with Xbox being relatively iconic and a household name that they would want to leave the console market, especially when their past 2 consoles sold relatively well with 50M+, when you look at their history in detail it wouldn't be so suprising to see why Microsoft would want to leave the console market, Xbox the past 4 generations always been trying to just stay afloat in a war that they'll always lose to PS unless PS just hands them the victory.
First off, the main reason why Microsoft got into the console market in the first place is cause they were scared of the PS2 & future Playstations taking over the living room as a multimedia device that could play DVDs/CDs, browse the web and potentially replace the need for a Windows desktop PC, but now it's clear that consoles will never replace PCs in their functions so Microsoft really doesn't need to worry about consoles replacing their PC anymore to keep making consoles.
Even if they want to stick to consoles for profit, they haven't done a pretty terrible job at it all these generations and in reality always been in a losing battle losing billions just to keep up with PS. While the Xbox sales wise was considered a pretty decent success by being able to outsell the GC and put even a small fight against the PS2 with 24M sold, Microsoft would end up losing 4$Billion that generation taking heavy losses on the hardware, marketing, and money-hatting developers just to sell that small of a number of units, any other company would've folded under those losses but Microsoft's high cash is what kept them afloat.
While the Xbox 360 was considered a big success sales wise selling 85M and went toe-to-toe with PS, tbh I feel like the Xbox sold that well more-so cause of Sony screwing up hard rather than people who truly preferred Xbox, and wasn't a sustainable amount of success for the long term. It seems like gen after gen Microsoft just fails to attract the European & Japan markets as much as PS which makes it difficult for them to compete. Despite the PS3 screwing up so hard selling at 800+$ in 2024 inflation standards at launch, having worse online, worse performing multiplats, launched a year later, launched with less must have exclusives like Halo 3, and not having a popular gimmick like the Kinect behind a huge marketing budget, the PS3 was still able to outsell the 360 where the PS3 was able to win it in Europe & Japan despite all it had against it.
But even though the Xbox 360 was a big success sales wise, Microsoft STILL ended up being unprofitable that gen mainly cause of the RROD situation which costed Micrsoft billions to fix to the point where the Xbox 360 wasn't able to recover when it comes to profit.

Now when it comes to the Xbox One, people think that the Kinect, anti-consumer policies, and 100$+ more expensive than the PS4 lost them that gen, and while it did contribute to it, they were bound to lose the gen anyways. Even when Microsoft took away those policies, offered cheaper prices, and a more appealing and powerful console options and redesigns later that gen it did very little to change the tide, which were very similiar things Sony did with the PS3 and PS3 was able to comeback alot better mainly cause Sony always was the favorite in Europe & Japan while Xbox was always in an endless uphill battle just to stay afloat.

I imagine that trying to stay afloat like this with Sony in the console space likely had been expensive for them, since the Xbox One gen they've typically always given more discounts on their hardware taking more and more losses on the hardware just to sell decent, and along with developing games with a limited install base on the Xbox One, may be more detrimental than we may think behind the scenes.
We've already recently seen the Sony/Insomniac leaks where despite the fact that PS is doing crazy successful with the PS4 selling 100M+ and the PS5 on its way to do so as well, Sony is still struggling to maximize their profit at times with certain big games like Rachet & Clank losing money and other titles not meeting profit hopes, forcing lay-offs and Sony to port their exclusives to PC to stay profitable, imagine that with Microsoft with a console install base that's less than half of PS and a company that naturally spends more money than they need too. It's hard to say if this is happening cause Microsoft never reports on profit for their Xbox division, but the fact that they seem to be leaning away from pushing console sales these past few years makes me believe that the console business for them hasn't been great in terms of their profitability hopes.

It's coming to the point where Microsoft was pricing the Xbox Series S at 150$ this past holiday season which is wild to see for a next-gen console in their 3rd year to have a price that low and still get demolished by PS in sales. Even Phil Spencer given quotes as of recent that just seems discouraging on the future of Xbox, even going as far as admitting that even if they release great games wouldn't change the tide for Xbox, it just feels like they have no purpose to compete in console sales when it may be holding them back by taking on losses on hardware and marketing just to sell decently compared to Sony and the Xbox install base isn't big enough for their 1st party sales to be much more profitable compared to just releasing all their software as a 3rd party developer.

Yep, that was wild.
Holidays 2023, the series S was 149$ and the series X was 349$, both much lower in price than the PS5 at the time.
However NPD comes out, and you find Xbox is 3rd both in revenue and units sold. In its strongest market, the US.

Places like spain and some other european countries its being outsold like 9 to 1.

"Even Phil Spencer given quotes as of recent that just seems discouraging on the future of Xbox, even going as far as admitting that even if they release great games wouldn't change the tide for Xbox,..."

This is the main thing I disagree with, from Phil.
If you keep a good trackrecord of constantly releaseing bangers..... it will boost sales and ultimately effect things (ei. change the tide).
The thing is they havn't for a very long time, consumer trust is broken.

Games and their quality, has been a huge issue for xbox for along time.
If your trying to sell a gameconsole, thats just not a good fit.



Azzanation said:

Azzanation said:

You cannot call Checkmate when the other player can still move, you would know that if you played Chess. Buckle up, because here is my move.

So you are assuming GamePass can no longer grow? How does this even affect the point of having competition? Xbox exists to this day and you are saying GP has hit a wall.. while debating with me that competition is needed? GP on Nintendo and Sony will gain more customers than it being on Xbox. My facts is easily based on Userbase size. 200m gamers combined on Switch and PS compared to 30m on Xbox. Bigger audience, higher chance of converting a customer.

Its simple logic. 

Pemalite said:

The difference between you and me is... You have only provided opinions.

I have provided evidence.

Meaning... I have the high ground and we can discard your position as false.

You haven't proven anything with this point. You brought up Epics gaming Engine which is completely unrelated and an attempt to spin. 

In Bald. Your list shows 8 Companies that walked out of the console hardware market. Proof that the 3rd player always struggles to the point of exiting. Your fact has been countered and debunked. Its only a matter of time before MS pull the pin like all the others. Do you see the pattern in that list yet?

1st console generation: Magnavox, Atari and Coleco.
2nd console generation: Magnavox, Atari, Coleco, Intellivision.
3rd console generation: Nintendo, Sega, Atari.
4th console generation: Nintendo, Sega, Atari, NEC, SNK.
5th console generation: Nintendo, Sega, Sony, Atari, Panasonic (3do conglomerates of Panasonic, Sanyo, Creative, Goldstar).
6th console generation: Nintendo, Sega, Microsoft, Sony.
7th console generation: Nintendo, Microsoft, Sony.
8th console generation: Nintendo, Microsoft, Sony.
9th console generation: Microsoft, Sony and eventually Nintendo.

So, you admit that console competition isn't the reason we have good prices? Thats dictated outside the console walls. So, weather Xbox exists or it doesn't, price hikes are not something these company's control. So again, why do we need Xbox hardware if Chip makers create the prices?

Which one is it than, chip makers or console makers?

Pemalite said:

Yes you do need competition to make a "good" video game.

Developers trial new ideas and concepts constantly, they release that into the marketplace, competition dictates whether those ideas and concepts are viable and good.

No, you don't, this is completely false. If you have money, you can fund game projects, games quality is based on budget and time, not whether or not competition exists. That is a ridiculous thing to say. 

You said Steam competes with consoles, so we don't need Xbox hardware. Because if Xbox drop out, Sony and Nintendo won't have a monopoly because Steam exists, correct? You proved my point with your replies, and you were calling checkmate? Bro.

If you are an Xbox fan, I understand you aren't happy if Xbox walks, but i am just saying the obvious. Xbox isn't needed for the console market to thrive. The market is not big enough to sustain all 3 companies, 1 will eventually walk out, and another will try to take its place only to fall in the same situation many before it has. 

You only know if you need something until its gone.  You have no clue how the market would change if MS does not have a competitive console.  One thing for sure is that you can believe all mega corporations will take full advantage of it so yes if you believe that Sony would sell at a loss their next system if MS is gone, you are deluding yourself.  Its not just the consumers that lose out its also the devs and other studios.  Fees go up, hell everything goes up because you just do not have to worry about competition.  No one knows what happens if MS leave and no one knows what will happen if MS goes limited multiplat which if you think about it they already operate in that fashion especially with ABK.  What determine success today is not always what you believe you know because you only live in the moment.



JRPGfan said:
Pemalite said:

I don't care if Xbox walks. I own Sony and Nintendo consoles as well, but primarily I am a PC gamer.

I do care about bringing my physical library forwards.
If Microsoft cans support for physical games or cans making a successor console, then my wallet will vote in kind.

Azzanation said:

The market is not big enough to sustain all 3 companies

The console market has sustained 3 companies just fine since Microsoft entered the market decades ago.
Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony were all profitable during the 8th gen... 7th gen all 3 console manufacturers had healthy console sales with a relatively competitive split in marketshare.


The Console Market is trending towards 25~ billion in sales and PC market is trending towards 30~ billion.
https://www.statista.com/outlook/cmo/consumer-electronics/gaming-equipment/game-consoles/worldwide#revenue

Which means it is big enough to sustain all 3.

You keep propagating this lie, but we all know it is false.

The reason why the Xbox Series is imploding is because:

1) No GREAT exclusives.
2) Higher pricing.
3) Shit naming. - Xbox Series? Common. WiiU was a better name.
4) Removal of physical games from game stores which also impacts brand awareness.

5) Lack of focus on markets outsides of the US. (sub/dub and quality of translations, marketing, support (if theres hardware/user issues)

6) Day and Date games, to PC (it has to have cost them atleast a few console sales)

7) Gamepass has conditioned users to wait for games to come to gamepass, and not buy them.
      (total gamepass subs, then limits how many games the system can then have and be successfull there)

8) Buying massive publishers like EA/Activision, where they make alot of their money on other platforms (not xbox). 
    You dont spend $80-100 bn, only to see these bussiness shrink, and their profits collapse. So this basically forces them to go 3rd party.

(Im assumeing by imploding, you mean them perphaps transitioning to be less dependent on the xbox console, and going 3rd party with games)
The consoles (and gamepass) just arnt selling enough, to support them as they are now (with all these dev studios/publishers).

----------


On a side note.
Yes Steam and PC gameing, are competition for Sony, as are Nintendo.
If Sony goes nuts, or greedy, it will push people away as well.

The world isnt ending, if xbox leaves hardware... which it probably wont anytime soon.
Next gen, it might just be a PC with a console OS, sold from 3rd party sellers.

Naw, console gamers are console gamers for a reason.  If anything, Sony will just slowing increase license deals, services cost and other things.  By the time you realize it you are already use to paying it.  There is never a hurry to increase on all fronts just because your main competition leaves.

You will get old Sony back you can believe that but they will be much smarter how they go about it.