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Forums - Gaming Discussion - The growing third party issue with the Xbox Series S

Pemalite said:
EpicRandy said:

If you view the Xbox series X and S from another point of view there's no real difference when handling game for X and S compare to handling title for the Switch docked vs handled. (Switch GPU literally goes from 768Mhz to 300mhz making the power difference ratio very similar to X vs S). Except that with the switch your are forced to use the same assets while you have the option to be more efficient with the Series S and use lower quality assets like 1080p texture instead of 4k one.

The difference between X and S is far larger than the Switch Docked vs Undocked.

For example, the Switch doesn't loose 60% of it's Ram, it's Ram bandwidth doesn't increase by 150% going from undocked to docked... Which impacts the texture and pixel fillrate of the GPU.

I do agree that the Series S will be targeting a lower visual bar, so it can get away with less hardware, but the Switch comparison isn't even in the same ballpark.

It still result in 2 different specs with which dev have to deal with and they deal with it with very similar aproach. But yeah the difference X/S vs switch dock vs handeld is greater but so is 1080p/4k vs 720p/1080p. 

Also it does not loose 60% of the ram 10/16 is 62 % which is 38% lower not 60%



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Norion said:
EpicRandy said:

That would simply not be the case or the game would also struggle at 1440p 30 fps on both PS5 and SeriesX. As long as the game target 4k@60 no reaon it should not run at least at 1080P@60 on series S with assets correctly adjusted for this target.

Way more realist to think game/engine will be better optimised when they drop last gen requirement and that it will actually be beneficial to the Series S.

We're already seeing games not have an option for 4k 60fps and the cross-gen period isn't even over yet so a game as huge and demanding as GTA 6 is gonna be will only run at 60fps on the PS5 and Series X at a resolution much lower than 4k. Because of that I highly doubt it'll run on the Series S at 1080p 60fps. Due to how anaemic it's gonna be a few years from now late gen there are gonna be cases of games that ran as badly on the Series S as games like Control and Cyberpunk did on the last gen consoles or at least close to that if Microsoft never stops mandating support for it.

4k 60 is still the target config for the system, dev wont just start targeting 1440p 30 as the gen progress. If anything it would be quite the contrary with dev having an easier time targeting 4k just like 1080p for the ps4. And as long as the target res is between 1440p+ to 4k the series s should not have any problem with 720p+ tp 1080p+ at same fps.



Darc Requiem said:
EpicRandy said:

Last gen boat anchor were dur to the cpu being underwhelming from the get go. The series S has the same cpu as the series X. Ram and bandwith are non issue since the assets are also les memory intensive unless game dev decide to use 4k assets and downscale them runtime but that would be the case of bad optimization on the dev part.

The CPUs were weak last gen. It's the reason for the lack of 60fps games. That said, the last couple years, multiplatform games on base Xbox One were struggling. It was almost meme. "I wonder how this will run on the old Xbox One VCR." The gap in graphical power between base Xbox One/S was generational. The One X had over 4.5 times the GPU power of the base model. By comparison the Series X had double the GPU power of the One X.

When it comes to the Series S, memory more than GPU power is the biggest problem. Not only is the memory pool of the One X larger 12GB to 10GB. The One X has a unified pool of RAM. All the RAM in the One X has 326GB/s bandwidth. The Series S has a split memory pool. Something frowned upon by developers to begin with. In the Series S, 8GB of RAM runs 224GB/S and other 2GB of RAM has only 56GB/s of bandwidth. That's slower than the DDR3 in the base Xbox One (68GB/s) that developers were complaining about that last gen. The slow memory pool of the Series X (6GB at 336GB/s) is 50% faster than the "fast" memory pool of the Series S. The biggest complaint I see from developers is having to go from the 13.5 to 14GB of memory available in the PS5 an Series X to the 8GB of much slower RAM in the Series S. The Series S has half the memory bandwidth of the PS5.

As for developer optimization, it's always an issue. Most publishers are content with the bare minimum. It's why having multiple performance targets for a single platform is a problem. It leads to two scenarios. Games being built around the weaker platform and the stronger platform not being leveraged to it's capability. Or the weaker platform getting substandard versions of the games on the stronger one. The former was the case with the Xbox One. The latter is becoming the case with the Xbox Series. Developers that are allowed to go the extra mile are the exception not the rule. Giving them two significantly different performance targets for your platform compounds matters. It's bad enough most games require a day one patch to "optimize" game performance. 

Memory bandwith need to be huge because at this point all assets are uncompressed. On memory bandwith a 4k texture will literally and exactly required 4x the bandwith of a 1080p one and texture are literaly what is bandwith hungry when rendering a game. So normaly the series S could get away with about 25% bandwith compare to the X but it have 40% meaning it has headroom when targeting 1/4 of the res. The lower bandwith ram part should be mostly used by the os reserved memory so no impact on game. You also find all other specs to have similar headroom to what they would required in this scenario. Dev can get away with minimum effort here by targeting 1/4 the res and having assets accordingly but great port to the S will try to tap into this headroom to target slightly higher res like 1200p when 4k on the series X.

So again the series S will be just fine for the entire gen.



EpicRandy said:
Pemalite said:

The difference between X and S is far larger than the Switch Docked vs Undocked.

For example, the Switch doesn't loose 60% of it's Ram, it's Ram bandwidth doesn't increase by 150% going from undocked to docked... Which impacts the texture and pixel fillrate of the GPU.

I do agree that the Series S will be targeting a lower visual bar, so it can get away with less hardware, but the Switch comparison isn't even in the same ballpark.

It still result in 2 different specs with which dev have to deal with and they deal with it with very similar aproach. But yeah the difference X/S vs switch dock vs handeld is greater but so is 1080p/4k vs 720p/1080p. 

Also it does not loose 60% of the ram 10/16 is 62 % which is 38% lower not 60%

RAM (available for developers) is 8GB vs 13.5GB. So Series X is about 69%~ higher.



I disagree with Hogwarts Legacy being badly optimized on consoles. It's 1440p 60 fps on PS5 and it holds 60 fps majority of the time.

Meanwhile XSS version is only 792p in 60 fps, which is definitely a last gen resolution, it even has loading screen when leaving Hogwarts interior due to low amount of RAM (10GB vs 16GB)

GTA VI however will be a true test of things to come.

Last edited by Radek - on 11 March 2023

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Rubbish. 3rd party devs don't even bother fully incorporating RDNA2 features which both series X and S support (where some of the crucial ones PS5 does not) and which would greatly improve the performance. 3rd party XS games seem to be an afterthought, since most of the porting time was spent on custom PS5 API. It's especially apparent in games where PS5 port performs better than its series X counterpart, where on paper, it absolutely shouldn't. Xbox port? Oh, they use DX right? ... proceed with copy/paste of unoptimised PC port. And series S is an afterthought of an afterthought. If people can run modern games on a Steamdeck, there's no excuses why wouldn't they run decently on series S. The only positive thing I can think of is that those games were planned years ago, with some priorities in mind and it can get better. Time will tell.



If performance/visuals were my go to reason to get games, I would get them for PC only.

I'm satisfied with my Xbox Series S purchase - b/c played a huge role in the decision to purchase too.





EpicRandy said:
Norion said:

We're already seeing games not have an option for 4k 60fps and the cross-gen period isn't even over yet so a game as huge and demanding as GTA 6 is gonna be will only run at 60fps on the PS5 and Series X at a resolution much lower than 4k. Because of that I highly doubt it'll run on the Series S at 1080p 60fps. Due to how anaemic it's gonna be a few years from now late gen there are gonna be cases of games that ran as badly on the Series S as games like Control and Cyberpunk did on the last gen consoles or at least close to that if Microsoft never stops mandating support for it.

4k 60 is still the target config for the system, dev wont just start targeting 1440p 30 as the gen progress. If anything it would be quite the contrary with dev having an easier time targeting 4k just like 1080p for the ps4. And as long as the target res is between 1440p+ to 4k the series s should not have any problem with 720p+ tp 1080p+ at same fps.

I do think something like 1440p 30fps will become increasingly common as the systems get older. You gotta keep in mind that big games are still gonna be releasing on them 6-7 years from now and there's no way they're gonna get anywhere near 4k by that point. By then 1080p will probably happen sometimes with 4k reserved for the PS6 and next Xbox.

Last edited by Norion - on 11 March 2023

Kristof81 said:

Rubbish. 3rd party devs don't even bother fully incorporating RDNA2 features which both series X and S support (where some of the crucial ones PS5 does not) and which would greatly improve the performance. 3rd party XS games seem to be an afterthought, since most of the porting time was spent on custom PS5 API. It's especially apparent in games where PS5 port performs better than its series X counterpart, where on paper, it absolutely shouldn't. Xbox port? Oh, they use DX right? ... proceed with copy/paste of unoptimised PC port. And series S is an afterthought of an afterthought. If people can run modern games on a Steamdeck, there's no excuses why wouldn't they run decently on series S. The only positive thing I can think of is that those games were planned years ago, with some priorities in mind and it can get better. Time will tell.

That's not addressing two of the biggest issues with Xbox Series platform. The split memory pool and the fact that the API doesn't allow you to get as "close to metal" as the PS5. MS should but bit the bullet and put an extra 4GB of RAM on the Series X so that all of the RAM would have 560GB/s of bandwidth. By splitting the pool they've nullified their own bandwidth advantage because devs have to account some of the memory being restricted to 336GB/s. And that's leaving the elephant in the room, the Series S, out of the equation. 

Last edited by Darc Requiem - on 11 March 2023

Kristof81 said:

Rubbish. 3rd party devs don't even bother fully incorporating RDNA2 features which both series X and S support (where some of the crucial ones PS5 does not) and which would greatly improve the performance. 3rd party XS games seem to be an afterthought, since most of the porting time was spent on custom PS5 API. It's especially apparent in games where PS5 port performs better than its series X counterpart, where on paper, it absolutely shouldn't. Xbox port? Oh, they use DX right? ... proceed with copy/paste of unoptimised PC port. And series S is an afterthought of an afterthought. If people can run modern games on a Steamdeck, there's no excuses why wouldn't they run decently on series S. The only positive thing I can think of is that those games were planned years ago, with some priorities in mind and it can get better. Time will tell.

Then name us a single 1st party studio that has been incorporating those magical RDNA2 features to a great effect. Will Starfield (30 fps on console) utilize them?

About time you accepted PS5 is just better at some areas. Magical features ain't saving the Series S.