Yeah it was even more painful yesterday "Lest we forget" Well it seems the world forgot again. Or misinterpreted as usual as it's that pain from WW2 that's now driving the ongoing atrocities. "Never again" is Netanyahu's slogan.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/netanyahu-never-again-is-now-israel-fighting-war-for-all-of-humanity/

Blind hatred is what I see on both sides. While those that came together over the years are now being driven apart again. Peter F Hamilton made an observation about humanity in his sci-fa sagas, "Human emotions, particular anger, are a very convenient way to bypass moral issues". His stories often deal with existential threats and the moral issues of "self defense".

Hamas needs to go, as well as Israels right wing extremist government including Netanyahu. One even jokingly suggested the nuclear option was one solution.
https://www.politico.eu/article/israel-minister-amichai-eliyahu-suspend-benjamin-netanyahu-nuclear-bomb-gaza-hamas-war/
At least he was suspended, but the sentiment is there, as well as in the leaked plans to drive Gaza into the Sinai Desert.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-palestinians-concept-paper-1.7015576
Ethnic cleansing, here we go again.

This conflict does deserve its own thread. I have to limit my exposure though, just about did me in Friday night.
At least it was heart warming to see all the demonstrations yesterday

The people responsible for this comparison are the western leaders, it's an uncomfortable comparison but we should be the one making it, otherwise, we leave the space for people with bad faith arguments and pro-Putin voices to occupy this space. For example, when you make the comparison, you get to point the difference effectively like you did in your post, a pro-Putin voice would stop at pointing out our hypocrisy but they'd end up seeming the reasonable side if we don't speak up and if we don't point the hypocrisy before they do. 

The west has got it wrong on both wars, the Ukrainian conflict is the one conflict that we should win, our response should've been swift, determined and unified, all we are doing is giving the green light for Putin and the likes to do it again and again. I have been thoroughly disappointed with what we've done for Ukraine, our sanctions backfired and made the enemy stronger and our self-inflated image has been exposed to every dictator in the world, this is just the beginning and one assault of many to come.   

We don't need to repeat the Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Yemen and the countless of other mistakes, we should've learned the lesson by now, but alas, whoever we elect, is a slave to military complex. We are not innocent of Netanyahu's actions, I am not a purist, there is always going to be tragedy everywhere in the world, and it's impossible to absolve them all, we're effing apes after all. But these IDF bombs are bought with our money, these children are killed with our taxes, these are our politicians. You say IDF won't listen to when our leaders but they won't even say the C word, let alone pull the levers that will effectively put Netanyahu in his place, of which there are many.

We don't have to know much to figure out that Netanyahu is blood thirsty maniac fuelled by his religious beliefs and publicly declared expansionist ambitions that preceded this war. There is no objective that can be accomplished by killing all these innocent children and women unless the objective is stealing more land, expanding the Israeli state, killing children, produce survivors that are easily radicalised after what they've been through drinking sea water and beg for their limbs to not be cut off while we're watching. 

Gotcha. Agreed there are double standards, many in the West have long been afraid of criticising Israel's government. Doubt we'll ever sanction Israel let along organise a ceasefire to get civilians out. Israel is also a very powerful country and seem determined to turn Gaza to dust. I do think it's right that we're making sure other countries don't get involved though, we definitely don't want this to spiral into a war between multiple countries, another Six-Day-War in 2023 would be a disaster for everyone involved.

My issue was mostly the Europe comment which I wanted further clarification on. Having said that, I don't believe UN peace keeping forces could do anything, the UN is useless even at the best of times. Russia won't surrender the territory they've stolen and Ukraine understandably won't let them have it. UN peace keeping forces will simply be killed as the conflict rages on and the West does not want war with Russia. The best thing we can do is keep giving Ukraine aid and weapons but we need to significantly step things up and end this war quicker.

As for Israel/Gaza, as I said, I don't know the solution, it's frustrating, it has been a conflict since before I was born. There is a ton of bad blood between the two, nobody has a solution which satisfies them both, nobody is willing to step down, Hamas and IDF are equally as terrible as each other. I'm also frustrated that we aid Israel and Israel is allowed to use our weapons however they want while Ukraine has to follow dozens of rules (some I agree with, some I don't) but Israel can just go bombing civilians and nobody will care.

What I took issue with was "The war in Ukraine is terrible, this is so much worse", that specific comparison. At the end of the day, both will be horrific and likely Ukraine's will last for years so it's hard to compare anyway. It's just that I personally don't see the need to compare them in that respect, it can devolve into a competition of who has suffered more which distracts from the main points but other comparisons are absolutely fine. My fault if I didn't make that clear.

Specific to Ukraine, I think the West has got some things right and some wrong. Ukraine absolutely needs to win, we should support them because it's the right thing to do and the consequences of Russia winning could put other countries further in risk such as Taiwan, Georgia, Moldova, etc. Where I take my main issue is that I think we've been too slow on a number of things (months worth of stupid debates about red lines) and we've lacked in quantity (fear of diminishing our own stocks). But I do believe we are (for the most part) doing good in quality with a few exceptions. If someone went back in time 2-3 years and told me that Ukraine would receive Abrams, Challengers, Leopards, Storm Shadows, F-16s, ATACMS, HIMARS, Patriots, etc. I'd laugh in their face. But unfortunately the months worth of deliberations have cost Ukrainians lives and extended the war.

The West is too reactive instead of proactive when it comes to Russia. We should have been firmer from the beginning and unafraid to do the right thing. We should set the rules. There are no red lines other than a direct attack from us on Russia. I firmly believe that in any other scenario, Russia would be too afraid to do anything to us. We've broken dozens of Russia's so called "red-lines" but we still show fear in sending certain things (such as Taurus) because it might be used to blow Crimean Bridge. We also put rules on Ukraine that they can't use Western equipment on Russian soil. And I'm not saying Ukraine should be allowed to bomb Russian civilians but there are plenty of military targets in Russia near to the border which Ukraine isn't allowed to hit. Do I think if a Storm Shadow hit a Russian military camp in Russia that Russia would start a war with UK? Absolutely not and if they do then that's their decision, not ours, we would have never directly attacked them.

I do think that we're unified for the most part with some exceptions such as Hungary/Slovakia but our unified response is too timid, whether it's about fear of Russia's reaction or fear of depleting our stocks. If we take Greece as an example, they don't not send Ukraine a lot of stuff because they're not united with us, it's because that dickhead Erdogan keeps threatening Greece. But Turkey is providing extremely valuable support to Ukraine as well, Turkey closing the strait is extremely, tactically valuable to Ukraine. it's just that we wait too long. Most countries in the West are supporting Ukraine and are united in agreement in supporting Ukraine but the varying levels of support can wildly vary.

I believe the West should be more willing to take a hit to their military capability in order to end the war faster, there are countries which sit right next to Russia who have done more for Ukraine than some Western Europe countries in terms of what they've sent compared to what they have, they're showing more confidence than countries safe in the further West because they know Russia must be stopped at all costs.

If we're being honest, and this isn't like "yeah the West is amazing, woohoo!" but truth, the only country which threatens Europe is Russia. There is no force on Earth more powerful than the combined military might of NATO and even depleting our stocks, that would remain the case. We have a chance to remove Russia as a threat but we're scared of depleting our stocks in case...Russia attacks us...What? I mean sure, China still exists and are poking Taiwan but when was the last time that China's military was battle tested? China's soldiers have virtually zero combat experience, numbers aren't everything as Russia has shown us but even Russia has more battle experience than China. Invading Taiwan across the sea would be 20x harder than Russia's invasion of Ukraine as well and the West is more than capable of ramping up their military industries to replenish stocks.

We should and can massively ramp up on mass producing artillery and drones for Ukraine, we should send more of our internal stocks and take a hit to our military capability. We should end this war sooner rather than later. I do think Biden has done a good job for the most part as well, sent a massive amount of military equipment but I was annoyed by the whole ATACMS reluctance and then when they finally did send them, it was too late as the counteroffensive was already over, it's really America's first major fuck-up in their support to Ukraine Imho. They should send still send more of everything though.

I don't think anyone has a green light yet, that depends on if Russia actually wins and at what cost, Russia has lost of a ridiculous amount of manpower and equipment already and the war may yet last for a number of years. Even if they win, they'll never hold Ukraine in peace, they'll be constant attacks on Russians in Ukraine. I'm not sure the shitshow Russia is making of this is that appealing to anyone right now aside from people equally as insane as Putin but if the West does drop support then it will give others a playbook on how to outlast the West. My main concern is what a long war costs to Ukrainians, I believe Ukraine can still win a war of attrition but it doesn't mean I want them to have to, I want as few dead Ukrainians are possible and that's is possible if the West pulls their finger out and significantly ramps up support even if it hurts our own military.

@Ryuu96 By "so much worse" I meant the humanitarian situation and collective punishment. What the Russian 'army' (if you can still call it that) does in Ukraine is unbelievable, basically the way Hamas operates with their attacks, unforgiveable. The worse part I was referring to is turning off the electricity, fuel, water, food, medical deliveries. Basically turning the open air prison that Gaza already was into an open air death camp. People in Gaza can't even leave the area, limited aid trickling in seems to be more for photo ops than actual help.

Now it seems the IDF is waiting for the power to run out that keep communications going. They've already managed to isolate Gaza a couple times but under pressure of the US restored communications. Same with the siege on hospitals, starve them out to force people to leave or die, so they can raise Gaza city to the ground without witnesses. 41 journalists have been killed already as well. https://rsf.org/en/israelpalestine-war-41-journalists-more-one-day-killed-first-month-israel-palestine-war IDF of course denies targeting journalists, yet the only thing holding them back from storming the hospitals is that there are still people there in contact with UNWRA, WHO, Unicef and people getting images out. The US has made clear they don't want firefights inside the hospitals, yet everything right around them has already been bombed with collateral damage happening daily.

https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/israel-target-civilians-gaza-fetterman-rcna123890

Since Hamas’ massacre of Israelis on Oct. 7, Israel has dropped nearly as many bombs in Gaza — a small strip of land with about 20,000 people per square mile — as the U.S.-led coalition dropped over all of Afghanistan in its heaviest year of bombardment during the war there. The Israel Defense Forces have leveled extraordinary amounts of civilian infrastructure, hitting an untold number of buildings that include apartment buildings, hospitals, mosques, schools and U.N. shelters. Entire blocks have been turned to rubble, entire families have been wiped out. Israel’s military has killed more Gazan children in weeks than were killed in all conflict zones annually since 2019. It has killed more U.N. aid workers than in any other comparable period of its history. It has killed, according to the Committee to Protect Journalists, more journalists in the opening weeks of the bombing than over a similar period of time in any conflict since the committee began tracking them in 1992. Israel has claimed that it’s attempting to save civilian lives by telling Gazans to move south to avoid being hit — and then it has struck designated safe zones in the south, too. Many Gazans also can’t go south because of health or mobility constraints, or fear that they could be in even more danger if they do because they don’t know where they’ll stay or how they’ll survive.


And yes I also fear for the Ukraine, things getting worse there again now the world has its attention diverted to the Israel-Hamas war. I also agree that UN peace keeping forces are mostly useless, yet it's better than the IDF re-occupying Gaza.


@LurkerJ Indeed, we're just a bunch of apes with increasingly bigger sticks. The actual age of reason is still far off, we might never reach it. Bunch of tribal monkeys is all humanity is. https://news.mongabay.com/2014/12/tribal-violence-comes-naturally-to-chimpanzees/

Yeah it's all good, I was just seeking some clarification on some statements made. I do agree with you on a lot of what you have said, especially about IDF/Netanyahu and double standards. I also think a thread on the Israel/Gaza war is a fine idea but I won't be able to moderate it as I won't be able to keep up with the topic as much as needed, it probably would need a Mod to keep a close eye on it.

You're doing an excellent job with the Ukraine thread already, which is much harder to find news about nowadays. It's pretty much my only source now for what's going on there.

I'm just glad there is mostly civil conversation on this site. What kills me inside is accidentally glancing at the comments on Twitter and You Tube, people cheering on the destruction and blaming the victims for living there. But yes a thread would still need moderation. Other gaming sites won't touch the subject, when Eurogamer says anything that could be linked to the conflict the comments section is disabled by default. The games for Gaza bundle still raised $336K, it's something. (In comparison the games for Ukraine bundle raised $6.3 million. Also had 4 times as many games and much more known ones)

The cost to rebuild Gaza already runs in the tens of Billions. The 2014 war cost 4-6 Billion

The UN estimated that more than 7,000 homes for 10,000 families were razed, together with an additional 89,000 homes damaged, of which roughly 10,000 were severely affected by the bombing. Rebuilding costs were calculated to run from US$4–6 billion over the course of 20 years.

This time Israel has already destroyed 41,000 homes, estimated 45% of all homes are damaged.

https://www.unrwa.org/resources/reports/unrwa-situation-report-28-situation-gaza-strip-and-west-bank-including-east-Jerusalem

Almost 1.6 million people have been displaced across the Gaza Strip since 7 October. Three additional shelters were opened in Rafah. Nearly 778,000 internally displaced persons (IDPs) are now sheltering in 154 UNRWA installations across all five governorates of the Gaza Strip, including in the north.

The numbers are simply too large to comprehend. And still pale in comparison to the rapidly increasing death toll

Gaza

• According to the Ministry of Health (MoH) in Gaza, over 11,078 people have been killed in the Gaza Strip since 7 October; two third of them are believed to be children and women.
• Over 27,490 people have been injured. Around 2,700 others, including 1,500 children, have been reported missing and may be dead or trapped under the rubble, awaiting rescue or recovery.
• Overall, around 1,200 Israelis and foreign nationals have been killed in Israel, according to Israeli Authorities, the vast majority on 7 October (OCHA).

The West Bank

• According to OCHA, since 7 October, 169 Palestinians, including 46 children, have been killed by Israeli Security Forces (ISF) and eight, including one child, by Israeli settlers. 

I fear this is going to be another long war, and the longer it goes on, the higher the chance the conflict will spill over further. Plus I see little hope for the safe return of the hostages. They're just being used as an excuse not to have a ceasefire, which makes no sense.

Here's some context that might visualize the numbers a bit, 2.3 million people in Gaza (Gaza is upside down here)

(NY City's population is 8.5 million)

As expected, the media blitz and pro Israel demonstration in the US and suddenly claiming to have seen 'evidence' of Hamas using Al Shifa, after Biden saying no firefights in hospitals, the IDF is now storming Al Shifa hospital. The US couldn't be more complicit in war crimes.

IDF says it's carrying out a “precise and targeted operation" in Al Shifa Hospital in Gaza

From CNN's Andrew Carey

Israel Defense Forces said it is carrying out a "precise and targeted operation" in Al Shifa Hospital in Gaza.

Some background: On Tuesday, the White House and the Pentagon said that Hamas is storing weapons and operating a command center from Al-Shifa Hospital.

The remarks echoed claims made by Israel, which Palestinian hospital officials and Hamas have rejected.

The Pentagon said the US has newly declassified intelligence that claims to show that Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad were using hospitals — including Al-Shifa — as a “way to conceal and support their military operations and hold hostages."

Smells like WMD in Iraq all over again.

Plus nice distraction to the catastrophe unfolding in the South (UNWRA now completely out of fuel, rain season is starting with raw sewage, garbage, dead bodies decomposing in the streets and rubble) nvm the people still trapped in the North. US politics has no humanity.

But keep telling the world it will be over soon

The current phase of Israel’s war against Hamas could end in a “matter of weeks,” Gilad Erdan, the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations, told CNN’s Jake Tapper on Tuesday.

US President Joe Biden said he believes a deal can be reached to release hostages taken during the October 7 Hamas attacks on Israel.

"I’ve been talking with the people involved every single day. I believe it’s going to happen. But I don’t want to get into detail," Biden told reporters at the White House.

Biden needs to be arrested together with Netanyahu and stand trial next to Hamas and Putin. What a great world we live in.

So is this significant or what.  I cannot believe Trump is sleeping well with this video leak of one of his attorneys pretty much making the case that he did not care about truth and was totally looking to stay in power.  Man that Georgia case is really turning up some real heat.

UN Security Council passes ‘humanitarian pause’ resolution