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Forums - Politics Discussion - Russia and Ukraine flashpoint

CaptainExplosion said:

Well sanctions clearly aren't doing jack shit. That's like if all they gave Ed Gien for his crimes was a finger wag of shame. -_-

Sanctions does works more slowly that's true but they aren't ineffective. They put Russia in an untenable position and render them unable to achieve higher goal. It is only a matter of time before Russia is brought to his knee.

Now I agree that more sanctions is needed and should probably have been made to increase exponentially every day Russia pursue their aggression. But I can only be mad a my government for not doing this.



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Dulfite said:
SvennoJ said:

I wish people would stop reducing everything to black and white, good vs evil. This stuff is also disgusting and will create more animosity for years if not generations. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/07/antirussian-hate-putin-europe/

As for the choice let the invaders in, settle in, then peacefully try to remove or convert them vs all out resistance, that choice has already been made. There's not really a way back now. If you had done nothing from the start, the soldiers would have been very reluctant to kill anyone or destroy anything.

But true, then all people in power would have been removed and replaced with new puppets, people moved around, many displaced likely. And it would have taken many years of inside and outside pressure to begin trying to get self governance back. Meanwhile anyone with a protest voice would have ended up in a Syberian gulag.

Yet now there are tons of dead people, millions displaced, billions of damage to the infrastructure. The country is effectively set back decades and will take several generations to repair once the war is over.

There is no good outcome. One reduces the loss of life, the other reduces to loss of freedom. Some people value life more, others value freedom more. Option one only works if everyone values life more than who is in / takes charge. It's not a realistic option. Everything in our history, media and what not screams freedom > life. So the only way 'out' is to repel the invaders. The question is how to do it while minimizing losses.

Nothing is EVER white, most countries are grey, but occassionally a country is black. So it isn't black and white, but rather black and gray.

Hitler's Germany was black, Japan's treatement of the Chinese in WW2 was black, Stalin's USSR was black, France's Reign of Terror was black, ISIS is black, North Korea is black, Early USA slaugtering Native Americans was black as well as having slaves, China is black, and yes, Putin's Russia is black.

What are some examples that make a country black?

- Attaching dissidents to canons to let their bodies explode like the North Koreans do.

- Genocide against any people group like the Chinese, Hitler's Germany, and USSR did.

- Putin's Russia using weapons that suck out oxygen from the lungs and many times cause lungs to explode, carpet bombing indiscriminately, jailing and murdering dissidents and political opponents within the nation who aren't doing anything illegal. The comprehensive list of all the universal evils Russia has committed in the last two weeks alone is insane. Hitler didn't even move at this fast of a pace to turn his nation into an anyone-against-me-is-evil-and-must-die state. Some things are black, and Putin's Russia is absolutely, without a doubt, universally, objectively, flat out, any-other-redundant-word-to-let-this-point-hit-home, black.

I don't disagree with you at all about that. My point of reducing everything to black and white was in relation to the article I linked. When 911 happened, muslims became victims of harassment and hate crimes, and now it's Russians. It's that kind of tribalism that keeps this shit going.



EpicRandy said:
KratosLives said:

Oh he cares about nato. Nato in ukraine would mean usa at his door. Imagine a future war between usa/russia, that would automatically make ukraine involved and fight against russia.  What would the usa do if canada and russia had strong relations and russia made a presence in that territory? What makes you think putin cares about the lifestyles and cultures of ukraine?  The people of russia have access to all sorts of social media, they know what goes on around the world. Has there been some kind of revolt? 

What would the usa do if canada and russia had strong relations and russia made a presence in that territory? Canada with strong relation to Russia would mean Russia would be very different than that it is today. Canada have very strong relation with many country and you don't see USA going nuts at any of them. Soviet Union had a foot in Cuba and all U.S. did was a failed operation using native Cuban, they never invaded with their troops, never shelled Cuban cities, never shelled civil house, never shelled hospital and maternity ward. 

What makes you think putin cares about the lifestyles and cultures of Ukraine?  Because this very culture is one that overthrown high level of governement corruption in 2014. Russia is literally the most corrupt country in the world with the highest inequality https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAMz5kgb7V4 if ever this very culture takes root in Russia he is literally done for.

The people of russia have access to all sorts of social media, they know what goes on around the world. They clearly don't. To the point where Russian relatives to Ukrainians don't even believe them when they tell literally what's happening right now. Why do you think Russia shutdown there last independent media?

Has there been some kind of revolt? Recent action taken by Putin clearly point that he is afraid of one. Thousands of illegal arrest of peaceful protester. New law that forbid anyone referring to the current situation in Ukraine as a war, punishable with up 15 years in jail. 

Part of why they are tightning a grip on social media or news networks , is because of the propaganda and false media that have come from the other side. Debunked old footage, statements that were found out and proven to be not true have come from ukrain and western media, to paint a picture for the world to see, and it's all on youtube. So they ain't innocent themselves. If you are going to portray something doing it right.



CaptainExplosion said:

Well it's hard to feel bad for Russians these days when it's been Russians who are causing all that shit in the Ukraine. Yes I'm aware there are good people who are from Russia, one of whom was Steven Spielberg's late grandfather Fievel (that's who the protagonist of An American Tail was named after).

I feel terrible for my former co-workers who came from Russia to work in The Netherlands. No doubt they still have family in Russia which they are now effectively cut off from while being shunned by people around them. Then you have all the parents who have their kids send abroad to commit war crimes, mostly against their will or under false pretense / propaganda. Ugly times all around.

I mean there were times when American friends of mine rather traveled with a Canadian flag on their travel cases when the USA was having its illegal war in Iraq. That was still semi justifiable to get rid of Saddam. A Russian accent is a lot harder to hide and there is nothing justifiable about this situation.

Now who is going to get rid of Putin. I hope their will be an uprising, yet the propaganda seems too strong. It feels too much like the old "Ich habe ess nicht gewusst" the attitude of a lot of Germans after the Second World War. Control the media, control the people. Still as true as ever.

The world wide web is not up to state control / manipulation. Too much disinformation and too many echo chambers. I always had the naive hope that wide access to information would prevent situations like these. Yet that hope was already dashed with the pandemic, if not global warming before that. I'm currently at a loss on how this repeating cycle can ever be broken.




SvennoJ said:
Dulfite said:

Nothing is EVER white, most countries are grey, but occassionally a country is black. So it isn't black and white, but rather black and gray.

Hitler's Germany was black, Japan's treatement of the Chinese in WW2 was black, Stalin's USSR was black, France's Reign of Terror was black, ISIS is black, North Korea is black, Early USA slaugtering Native Americans was black as well as having slaves, China is black, and yes, Putin's Russia is black.

What are some examples that make a country black?

- Attaching dissidents to canons to let their bodies explode like the North Koreans do.

- Genocide against any people group like the Chinese, Hitler's Germany, and USSR did.

- Putin's Russia using weapons that suck out oxygen from the lungs and many times cause lungs to explode, carpet bombing indiscriminately, jailing and murdering dissidents and political opponents within the nation who aren't doing anything illegal. The comprehensive list of all the universal evils Russia has committed in the last two weeks alone is insane. Hitler didn't even move at this fast of a pace to turn his nation into an anyone-against-me-is-evil-and-must-die state. Some things are black, and Putin's Russia is absolutely, without a doubt, universally, objectively, flat out, any-other-redundant-word-to-let-this-point-hit-home, black.

I don't disagree with you at all about that. My point of reducing everything to black and white was in relation to the article I linked. When 911 happened, muslims became victims of harassment and hate crimes, and now it's Russians. It's that kind of tribalism that keeps this shit going.

Well if that's what you are worried about, I haven't seen any of that, anecdotally granted, in my experience. Russians or Russian Americans living in the USA have not, as far as I have seen, and certainly not on the same scale as Muslims, been subjected to public ridicule like middle Easterners were after 9/11 or Japanese were after Pearl Harbor. Perhaps in some parts of USA it is bad, or maybe in Europe it is much worse. I get the impression most Americans view Russians as being here because it wasn't great at home and therefore they probably don't like Putin if they are here. Kind of like if I see Chinese people or Cuban people you can pretty safely assume they hate communism if they are here.

The whole Muslim thing got so bad after 9/11 because that is a religious influence, which is far deeper than national ones, and people freaked out thinking anyone that is Muslim or looks like a Muslim would read their text the same way and start raping and murdering or suicide bombing. The patriot act didn't help calm our nerves down either. Not do two prolonged wars.



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KratosLives said:

Part of why they are tightning a grip on social media or news networks , is because of the propaganda and false media that have come from the other side. Debunked old footage, statements that were found out and proven to be not true have come from ukrain and western media, to paint a picture for the world to see, and it's all on youtube. So they ain't innocent themselves. If you are going to portray something doing it right.

And yet another load of crap that does not pass basics scrutiny. You can argue there is some degree of bias in every media and even some do portray propaganda, yet Russian's ones are not even on the same scale, lies is there mantra through and through. Even fox news in the US spills out bullshits and Russian propagandas daily and yet you don't see the US government cracking down on them. They are even still invited at every press conference.

Also if Russia is so concerned about propaganda why doesn't it cracked on their own controlled media such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_One_Russia#Broadcasting spilling outrageous and plain as day fake news like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucified_boy

If you are going to portray something doing it right. Do you even realize that you are trying to justify Russia/Putin's action without even substantiating your claim. 



KratosLives said:

Regarding nato and what putin was asking for you, it's not a simple matter of saying it's not their right to onterfere or care what ukraine does. You need to understand the history of russia/ukraine/soviet, nate , history of past political events , actions of their past events, the right to concerns etc

Irrelevant.
Ukraine is -entitled- to self determination, like any other independent nation.
So whatever Russia demands is redundant to that end.

CaptainExplosion said:

Well sanctions clearly aren't doing jack shit. That's like if all they gave Ed Gien for his crimes was a finger wag of shame. -_-

War machines are very expensive to build, maintain and support.
Sanctions are definitely having an effect as Russia cannot afford the logistics to support it's crusade over the long term... Which is why it was super important for them to conquer Ukraine quickly and concisely... However, that didn't pan out.

That isn't to say Russia won't succeed... But it's going to take longer and be far more expensive than they originally anticipated.

Ironically, if Russia fails in it's conquering of Ukraine, it will be seen as having an ineffectual military, which is also incompetently managed... They likely can't afford to be perceived that way as it will have a massive detrimental effect to it's influence on the world stage.

KratosLives said:

Part of why they are tightning a grip on social media or news networks , is because of the propaganda and false media that have come from the other side. Debunked old footage, statements that were found out and proven to be not true have come from ukrain and western media, to paint a picture for the world to see, and it's all on youtube. So they ain't innocent themselves. If you are going to portray something doing it right.

This is a fallacious line of thinking.
What makes free media ironically free... Is all perspectives are allowed to be showcased in all their glory regardless if you agree with it or not.
Media is essentially allowed to compete with each other.

What Russia is doing -is- propaganda, stifling of free speech and trying to steer the narrative.

In short, they built false mass media in order to support a dictatorship by peddling false information and fears.

What is happening is that regardless if you are conservative or progressive... Majority of the worlds media is against the invasion of Ukraine.. And have been condemning it consistently. -  Which means it's bipartisan, not just politically, but in the media as well. Unless you live in Russia.

Only fringe individuals are trying to undermine all that by trying to make excuses to justify Russia's actions. (There is no excuse.)

Ryuu96 said:

Also on Sunday, prime minister Scott Morrison announced Australia would donate coal and further military equipment to Ukraine to “support the brave and courageous resistance”.

We can do more. SCOMO is just marketing himself to try and look good once again... But really he is just spineless.

I would put my hand up to deploy there in an instant if I could...



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The Nazi and NATO angles are just excuses for Putin to get a larger foothold on Crimea and the Black Sea.

Crimea is connected by land to Ukraine and not Russia, it is Ukrainian land that was given back to them by the USSR as it just makes sense, although there have been cultural problems in the region since the great famine in 1930 where the population lost was replenished with Russian people.
Due to it's position, Crimea depends on Ukraine for energy and water. Basically this war is for Russia to obtain the land connection with Crimea to secure the water source as it has been a problem when a damn was built upstream. They even built since 2014 a bridge to connect Crimea with Russia, but I guess inciting a war between the east and west Ukrainians is an easier way to solve their problems as they don't care about the collateral damages.

Note that I have politics filtered at VGC as I basically come here just for gaming news and miss most of the conversations going on here.



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Pemalite said:
KratosLives said:

Regarding nato and what putin was asking for you, it's not a simple matter of saying it's not their right to onterfere or care what ukraine does. You need to understand the history of russia/ukraine/soviet, nate , history of past political events , actions of their past events, the right to concerns etc

Irrelevant.
Ukraine is -entitled- to self determination, like any other independent nation.
So whatever Russia demands is redundant to that end.

CaptainExplosion said:

Well sanctions clearly aren't doing jack shit. That's like if all they gave Ed Gien for his crimes was a finger wag of shame. -_-

War machines are very expensive to build, maintain and support.
Sanctions are definitely having an effect as Russia cannot afford the logistics to support it's crusade over the long term... Which is why it was super important for them to conquer Ukraine quickly and concisely... However, that didn't pan out.

That isn't to say Russia won't succeed... But it's going to take longer and be far more expensive than they originally anticipated.

Ironically, if Russia fails in it's conquering of Ukraine, it will be seen as having an ineffectual military, which is also incompetently managed... They likely can't afford to be perceived that way as it will have a massive detrimental effect to it's influence on the world stage.

KratosLives said:

Part of why they are tightning a grip on social media or news networks , is because of the propaganda and false media that have come from the other side. Debunked old footage, statements that were found out and proven to be not true have come from ukrain and western media, to paint a picture for the world to see, and it's all on youtube. So they ain't innocent themselves. If you are going to portray something doing it right.

This is a fallacious line of thinking.
What makes free media ironically free... Is all perspectives are allowed to be showcased in all their glory regardless if you agree with it or not.
Media is essentially allowed to compete with each other.

What Russia is doing -is- propaganda, stifling of free speech and trying to steer the narrative.

In short, they built false mass media in order to support a dictatorship by peddling false information and fears.

What is happening is that regardless if you are conservative or progressive... Majority of the worlds media is against the invasion of Ukraine.. And have been condemning it consistently. -  Which means it's bipartisan, not just politically, but in the media as well. Unless you live in Russia.

Only fringe individuals are trying to undermine all that by trying to make excuses to justify Russia's actions. (There is no excuse.)

Ryuu96 said:

Also on Sunday, prime minister Scott Morrison announced Australia would donate coal and further military equipment to Ukraine to “support the brave and courageous resistance”.

We can do more. SCOMO is just marketing himself to try and look good once again... But really he is just spineless.

I would put my hand up to deploy there in an instant if I could...

Scomo is pathetic,  he showed bad leadership during the whole covid fiasco



KratosLives said:

Oh he cares about nato. Nato in ukraine would mean usa at his door.

Have you heard about the Baltic states?



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