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Forums - Politics Discussion - Russia and Ukraine flashpoint

Ukraine turning into another Afghanistan while Russia becomes an isolated yet still dangerous giant is the worst possible outcome imo. But it seems inevitable. Just incredible to see how one man can screw so many people and entire nations over.

I hope it ends soon but it looks unlikely. The propaganda still works in Russia and even Crimea. Maybe afterwards we'll get a detailed breakdown how it all lead to this war. It has been brewing and in the planning stages for the past 8 years. Why did so many people go along with it.



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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/06/us-officials-venezuela-talks-apparent-bid-further-isolate-russia

Interesting potential development, especially given the implications it would have for the oil supply.



President Zelensky wanted a no fly zone over Ukraine.
Why not grant his request?
Russian Aerial bombers have decimated Ukraine cities.



Phoenix20 said:

President Zelensky wanted a no fly zone over Ukraine.
Why not grant his request?
Russian Aerial bombers have decimated Ukraine cities.

Because Russia already made clear that would mean WW3.



Official member of VGC's Nintendo family, approved by the one and only RolStoppable. I feel honored.

Phoenix20 said:

President Zelensky wanted a no fly zone over Ukraine.
Why not grant his request?
Russian Aerial bombers have decimated Ukraine cities.

No point having a no fly zone if it isn't enforced, and if it is enforced that means we start shooting down Russian jets/bombers and Russia declares war on us.

I don't actually think this would lead to WW3, as I think China wouldn't do anything while waiting to see how Russia handles duking it out with NATO after having struggled so much with one minor nation, but it would be a much bigger war than is currently being waged and lead to a lot more deaths.

But, it could be argued, fighting Russia now over Ukraine could lead to less casualties and devastation than waiting to fight them after appeasing their conquest of former Soviet nations, when they feel powerful enough to try to expand beyond the old boundaries into new territories.



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Dulfite said:
Phoenix20 said:

President Zelensky wanted a no fly zone over Ukraine.
Why not grant his request?
Russian Aerial bombers have decimated Ukraine cities.

No point having a no fly zone if it isn't enforced, and if it is enforced that means we start shooting down Russian jets/bombers and Russia declares war on us.

I don't actually think this would lead to WW3, as I think China wouldn't do anything while waiting to see how Russia handles duking it out with NATO after having struggled so much with one minor nation, but it would be a much bigger war than is currently being waged and lead to a lot more deaths.

But, it could be argued, fighting Russia now over Ukraine could lead to less casualties and devastation than waiting to fight them after appeasing their conquest of former Soviet nations, when they feel powerful enough to try to expand beyond the old boundaries into new territories.

People clamoring for NFZs seem to be under the impression that Putin is just going to say, "Oh, the United States told us we couldn't fly over Ukraine, so we'd better turn around and go home, boys." Or that some magical barrier is going to appear over Ukrainian airspace. 



SanAndreasX said:
Dulfite said:

No point having a no fly zone if it isn't enforced, and if it is enforced that means we start shooting down Russian jets/bombers and Russia declares war on us.

I don't actually think this would lead to WW3, as I think China wouldn't do anything while waiting to see how Russia handles duking it out with NATO after having struggled so much with one minor nation, but it would be a much bigger war than is currently being waged and lead to a lot more deaths.

But, it could be argued, fighting Russia now over Ukraine could lead to less casualties and devastation than waiting to fight them after appeasing their conquest of former Soviet nations, when they feel powerful enough to try to expand beyond the old boundaries into new territories.

People clamoring for NFZs seem to be under the impression that Putin is just going to say, "Oh, the United States told us we couldn't fly over Ukraine, so we'd better turn around and go home, boys." Or that some magical barrier is going to appear over Ukrainian airspace. 

Yeah, which is illogical. But I also think assuming Putin, or at least some on-field commanders, won't back down at all is illogical. The reality is, the mentality of the Russian soldiers is, based on captured troops, intercepted information, spies within the Kremlin, etc, one of worry and concern, and that's just dealing with Ukraine. If Russians find out they have been given the clear to engage Americans and NATO allies, then I'd imagine we can expect a lot more "throwing the guns down and running away" like the Iraqi army. Especially since they are the ones invading and not defending. The number of Russian AWOLS would skyrocket if Russia goes at it with NATO.



President zelensky is a hero. I have a feeling he is the Winston Churchill of our times. He will turn the tide and save the world from destruction. Keep fighting and hold off the russian invasion.



drkohler said:
Machiavellian said:

Hmm, its pretty hard to by that Putin actually want this war to continue and did not instead believe that it would be done and over within within days.  Could you elaborate on this point. 

I'd guess (and that is the only thing one can do, noone can look into the brain of Putin) that Putin was sure he'd win the war withîn days, even using "unprofessional" troups and equipment. Just sheer numbers. Now his generals had the same problem as the German generals had in ww2. They had a militarily incompentent leader, and contradicting him would mean instant firing squad. So the Russian generals followed orders and failed miserably (probably they knew that right from the start). No Russian generals or battlefield commanders have been made to disappear, so the blame game hasn't even started in Moscow, which tells us Putin still has full control.

Now Putin (he's not dumbat all) uses the second method, terror against the population. There is no question time will wear down the Ukranian army and population, and more and more people will flee. If anyone thinks those Ukranians left behind are all heroes and will go into a taliban-style warfare, no, that is not going to happen. And suppressing whole nations is pretty much a hobby of the Russian rulers. Simply and steadily destroying the Ukranian infrastructure reduces own losses and basically empties the attacked country over time.

Unless a coup happens in Moscow (and it isn't clear what would happen after that), Putin can destroy the Ukrania with whatever methods he wishes. Sad but factual.

The only counter argument to impress Putin is brutal force. There are ways to do that. None are nice.

Economical warfare? Putin doesn't bother for a few Russian bank being shut down. He has connections to over 40 African banks that do his trades. And there are too many countries that are deppendent on Russian wheat and gas/oil..

Time is really not on Putin side.  Shelling cities only make the people hate Russia more not less just like US found out just shelling and bombing in Iraq fueled ISIS and other such groups because once you generate that type of hate it becomes a generation type of thing.  Reducing Ukraine to rubble also does not serve long term success because the more civilians you kill, the less likely you keep those other nations willing to stay by your side.

The longer the war goes, the bigger the cost on Russia.  They still have that huge convoy that cannot be moved sitting there like like a duck out of water.  They still have not managed to take the skies and food and fuel is huge issue.  On top of that you have constricts making up a large part of your army which means they are not even close to giving a crap about Putin ambition. The whole thing is a mess and I highly doubt Putin thought he would get the type of international push back that Russia has received.  If he was going by the sanctions that the US did during Obama term, then I am sure he got a real shock at the severity that is coming now.  The world is getting tired of his BS and they are ramping up the cost.  Yes, these sanctions will not stop him any time soon but they put an a lot of pressure on everyone else whether they want to continue down this road.  Either way none of this is going to be solved anytime soon, this will be years in development and measures to stop Russia aggression.  I know people want hasty solutions but there really is none.



Having finished the original COD Modern Warfare Trilogy for the first time 6 months ago, seeing the events today is something very odd.
Russia will now disconnect itself from the internet. The world has changed, again. Good luck for us.