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Forums - Politics Discussion - Russia and Ukraine flashpoint

There is a lot of good replies to FarleyMcFirefly, in particular about China and Taiwan, so I won't repeat what has already been said.

The one thing that needs to be brought up is that no one wants to see Russia resurrect the USSR or basically have free reign in East Europe like it did. If Ukraine falls, who is next? People would soon rather fight and die then go back to that shitty corrupt communist life. I was only 7 and I still remember the bullshit that went on in my little neck of the woods lol. Now if a 7 year old me doesn't want to see it history repeat itself, I can only imagine what older people must be thinking as they lived that harsh life for a far longer period of their life.



 

 

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KiigelHeart said:

Just saw this, maybe this explains why that Hungarian fellow though only US wants to support Ukraine. I can only speak for Finland here, but this is a flat out lie. Every survey says over 90% of people here want more sanctions to Russia even if it means higher energy etc prices and more support to Ukraine. 

Well yeah, most people want the war to end.

I think/hope that for most people that means it's on Russia. 

Bofferbrauer2 said:

I saw the actual survey: The question was extremely biased and basically amounted to "do you want peace or them to be at war forever and spilling over into EU?". Of course, if the question is loaded like that, most say peace. I'm actually surprised many more saw through this and didn't choose peace, I was expecting a 90%+ result due to how the question was asked.

I wonder how much propaganda comes down to lying outright, and how much of it comes from asking loaded questions/giving partial truths.  

FarleyMcFirefly said:

I pretty much never post in political threads, but here is just one.

For all of the people who unconditionally support Ukraine and are cheering on the latest tanks being sent over, I hope you are prepared to be sent to fight, or to send off loved ones to fight. This disgusting escalation needs to cease. Peace must be negotiated, and yes, that means concessions on both sides.
Do I know what those concessions should be? Not in the slightest. I am not overly knowledgeable in world politics. However, I am very much anti-war and am appalled by our world leaders who only seem to be provoking the other side.

"If you think Putin is equivalent to Hitler, remember, he is Hitler with nukes" - Viva Frei

Our leaders need to be doing everything possible to avoid this, which does not seem to be the case at all.

This is my only post on the matter, so I will not reply to any possible vitriolic responses.
I pray this ends ASAP.

There's a whole bunch of things to consider.

Rol already said this in many more words. But where would it end? If we show Russia and China and anyone else that we're not going to put up a fight if someone threatens nuclear weapons, where will that end? It wouldn't with Ukraine. It wouldn't end with Taiwan. If you show a narcissist that they can just take without a fight, they will continue just taking.

I think there's a big difference in how advantageous it is threating to use them vs actually using them. Threatening to use them certainly seems advantageous because people are terrified. Actually using them though, doesn't seem very advantageous. That would likely mean losing everything you were fighting for.



Yeah, russia should be forced to end the war. Definitely agree with that!



the-pi-guy said:
KiigelHeart said:

Just saw this, maybe this explains why that Hungarian fellow though only US wants to support Ukraine. I can only speak for Finland here, but this is a flat out lie. Every survey says over 90% of people here want more sanctions to Russia even if it means higher energy etc prices and more support to Ukraine. 

  

FarleyMcFirefly said:

I pretty much never post in political threads, but here is just one.

For all of the people who unconditionally support Ukraine and are cheering on the latest tanks being sent over, I hope you are prepared to be sent to fight, or to send off loved ones to fight. This disgusting escalation needs to cease. Peace must be negotiated, and yes, that means concessions on both sides.
Do I know what those concessions should be? Not in the slightest. I am not overly knowledgeable in world politics. However, I am very much anti-war and am appalled by our world leaders who only seem to be provoking the other side.

"If you think Putin is equivalent to Hitler, remember, he is Hitler with nukes" - Viva Frei

Our leaders need to be doing everything possible to avoid this, which does not seem to be the case at all.

This is my only post on the matter, so I will not reply to any possible vitriolic responses.
I pray this ends ASAP.

There's a whole bunch of things to consider.

Rol already said this in many more words. But where would it end? If we show Russia and China and anyone else that we're not going to put up a fight if someone threatens nuclear weapons, where will that end? It wouldn't with Ukraine. It wouldn't end with Taiwan. If you show a narcissist that they can just take without a fight, they will continue just taking.

I think there's a big difference in how advantageous it is threating to use them vs actually using them. Threatening to use them certainly seems advantageous because people are terrified. Actually using them though, doesn't seem very advantageous. That would likely mean losing everything you were fighting for.

That probably sums up my feelings. Where does appeasement end? Should we all submit to the will of Moscow and Beijing just to keep the peace in the world? What, exactly, would "concessions" from Ukraine look like? Giving up the territory that was illegally seized from them by Putin? Withdrawing any attempts to join NATO, I suppose. I suspect that Russia would settle for nothing less than Kyiv's absolute obedience to Moscow's whims.

Hungary is under the rule of Viktor Orban, who is content to be a Putin puppet. There's also a huge authoritarian streak running through the Hungarian people. Freedom is too messy for them, therefore they seem to prefer dictatorship so long as it's aimed at the people they consider "undesirables." Unfortunately, a lot of Republicans in the United States see Orban as a model for Republican governance, as he was a keynote speaker at CPAC in Texas last year.



So, according to Viktor Orban, Ukraine is a no-mans land? Damn, crazy how an EU country sharing a border with Austria can have such a prime minister in 2023..



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As a spanish, I'm ashamed of my country regarding that poll. During Civil War of 1936-39 democracies like France, GB or the US denied the Spanish Republic any kind of support to defend from the revolted semi-fascist side. They initiated a policy of "non intervention" and turned their backs to a democratic elected, legitimate goverment and sat down and watched while Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy sent the nationalist, authoritarian Franco side all kinds of weapons, vehicles and economic support.

The lack of international help led to Franco crushing the Republic and setting up a cruel dictatorship that would go on for almost 40 years.

We spaniards know better than anyone what it is to be ignored while crying for help. As such, we should be the first ones jumping to aid a fellow european country whenever they ask for help against an authoritarian force. Of course it's an economic effort for everyone. Of course is risky. But if they need us and we CAN help, we should do everything in our hands to do so.



crissindahouse said:

Damn, crazy how an EU country sharing a border with Austria can have such a prime minister in 2023..

That isn't really a surprise. Hungary (and to a lesser extent, Slovakia and Poland) hasn't really had roots in democracy. Like Russia, they swiftly went from autocracy to kleptocracy like Russia did after the Berlin wall teardown. My guess is that had East Germany not have a common language with West Germany (and so too much democratic influx), they would have followed the same path.

Last edited by drkohler - on 28 January 2023

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 28 January 2023

FarleyMcFirefly said:

For all of the people who unconditionally support Ukraine and are cheering on the latest tanks being sent over, I hope you are prepared to be sent to fight, or to send off loved ones to fight. This disgusting escalation needs to cease. Peace must be negotiated, and yes, that means concessions on both sides.

Ukraine is entitled to live in peace and prosperity and is not obligated to bend the knee due to an aggressor who is stealing their land, murdering innocent civilians, destroying infrastructure, businesses, schools and lives.

Does peace need to be negotiated? Sure. I am more than happy to back that... Provided Russia hands over every single inch of land they have stolen and backs out of the country... Permanently. - Because that part should be non-negotiable.
Ukraine doesn't get to suffer for years, having it's civilians raped and murdered, homes destroyed only for a "sorry".

As for being "prepared to fight". - I already provided an expression of interest just after the war started to head over to Ukraine as a USAR specialist technician to rescue and recover civilians, currently not needed... But at least I can put my money where my mouth is.

Can you?

FarleyMcFirefly said:

Do I know what those concessions should be? Not in the slightest. I am not overly knowledgeable in world politics. However, I am very much anti-war and am appalled by our world leaders who only seem to be provoking the other side.

Why should Ukraine concede anything at this point?
Just remember, they already conceded territories multiple times before this invasion begun.

It's great you are anti-war, but Ukraine and the West already conceded multiple times to prevent war... And it happened anyway.

Now the goal is to stack the cards in Ukraines favor via overwhelming support, where Russia concedes and reconsiders/backs out of the war, because that is the only way for long term peace to occur in the region.

FarleyMcFirefly said:


"If you think Putin is equivalent to Hitler, remember, he is Hitler with nukes" - Viva Frei

Our leaders need to be doing everything possible to avoid this, which does not seem to be the case at all.

This is my only post on the matter, so I will not reply to any possible vitriolic responses.
I pray this ends ASAP.

"But nukes" isn't an appropriate response to allow another nation to murder, rape and destroy another country.

You need to do the right thing, not the easy thing.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

FarleyMcFirefly said:

This disgusting escalation needs to cease. Peace must be negotiated, and yes, that means concessions on both sides.

This 'escalation' is driving the invaders out from where they have no right to be.

If someone comes into your home, rapes and murders parts of your family, and then demand you give them parts of your home, you'd be willing to offer them a room?

If Ukraine rolls over, then Russia are rewarded for invading, which will motivate them to do it again. Because this isn't even the first time they've done this to Ukraine in the past 9 years.