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Forums - General Discussion - Help me understand bitcoin

jlauro said:

Actually that is not exactly right, but is close...  and what makes these digital currencies different then minting your own physical currency.  Anyone can make more of the same digital currency, it just takes some amount of effort (ie: compute, or storage, etc).  So, if you can do the tasks you can basically make your own bitcoin or whatever money.  The interesting part is that each new coin takes more effort to produce than the previous coin.  So those first growing their own money can mine / make a lot of coins relatively cheaply, and the longer more and more people have been making "free" coins, the more work it costs to make more coins.

As to why anyone would buy these worthless coins is beyond me...  it's just like any other market, except no real good other than these virtual coins that took some effort to produce.  In some ways it can drive technology which can be good for research into technology advances as if there were not already sufficient reasons to improve technology efficiencies.

While in theory the number of coins must be infinite there is still a limit of how many coins you can feasible have and storage is not really the issue, rather how hard is to "mine" the hashes necessary to add the new coin in the cryptocurrency ledge. If you are interested in a more technical language, the ledge works inside a Blockchain network and the hashes are used in POW (Proof of work) and it works like... I don't know if I have proper English to explain, in portuguese we call this "lastro financeiro/monetário", it's to assert or coin as a trustful part of the ledge/chain

Like Svenno already explained, think this as a pyramid. The demand for coins create more coins, but there is a limit of how many coins anyone can mine hence people are hushing to create more coins and trying to get some money from people who are waiting too long to get their own coins. It's a market bubble, eventually we will face a bitcoin crisis. Good news for people who likes pyramids is: You can just start a new one blockchain network with a new cryptocurrency and starting mining from scratch. Nice, right?  

Last edited by IcaroRibeiro - on 13 November 2021

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trunkswd said:

So we can make a VGChartz coin? I'd buy some. 

We do. We can actually do more, we could make a digital marketplace with blockchain network 

Last week I got a proposal letter for working in the first Brazilian block-chain network supplier. If you are interested in buying some of their tokens, be welcome

Just remember this is like a stock market, you can lose money tomorrow

I rejected because I want and I'm currently studying to be a Data Scientist



Could someone in layman’s terms explain “mining” to me? I’ve tried to understand it but I just can’t. How does it get “mined”? What’s the process? Why does it consume energy? What’s using energy to mine it?

Thank you so much.



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Paatar said:

Could someone in layman’s terms explain “mining” to me? I’ve tried to understand it but I just can’t. How does it get “mined”? What’s the process? Why does it consume energy? What’s using energy to mine it?

Thank you so much.

Think about it as finding the next prime number. You pick a number, then you test if it's divisible by any previous number. It takes more and more effort to find the next one.

Bitcoin uses a vastly more complex mathematic formula which requires a lot of computations to find the next block.

"Mining" is performed using sophisticated hardware that solves an extremely complex computational math problem. The first computer to find the solution to the problem is awarded the next block of bitcoins and the process begins again.

https://www.investopedia.com/tech/how-does-bitcoin-mining-work/



Paatar said:

Could someone in layman’s terms explain “mining” to me? I’ve tried to understand it but I just can’t. How does it get “mined”? What’s the process? Why does it consume energy? What’s using energy to mine it?

Thank you so much.

A combination of my recollection and some speculation (so take this with a grain of salt) tells me that mining is essentially verifying Bitcoin transactions, for which you earn some yourself. Verifying the transactions is dependent on previous transactions, so the more transactions there are, the more effort it takes to verify a transaction. Essentially this means that as time goes on, it takes more and more to verify transactions, i.e. mine Bitcoin (and it's called mining probably because you get some as well when doing so). As to why it consumes energy, it's because it's done using some heavy computations that only get heavier, and the computations are done by physical hardware (i.e. computers) that consume energy.

And yes, I'd like to be informed if I'm accidentally spreading misinformation - and no, I'm not particularly interested in hearing a more detailed version of this.



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Well, there are different levels of understanding here, basically technical and social. As a technician I am more qualified to talk about the technical aspect, but I think that is less relevant for you. I'll do both anyways.

On a technical level Bitcoin is about a technical method to enable trust between a bunch of actors not trusting each other. This seems to have to do not much with a currency but stay with me a moment. As a starting point you have a number of actors (persons, organizations), that want to exchange information, but don't trust each other not manipulating said information. The classic solution is to create a central authority (or multiple) to decide about the "correct" information.

An example is the DNS. If you type in 'www.google.de' into your browser, that browser needs to determine the server in the internet associated with that name. On a technical level there is a protocol, but that doesn't solve an underlying issue: what if both a server from the company Google and a server from the company Scam-a-dam claim to be responsible for 'www.google.com'? Which one to choose? The solution that was done was to create a central authority (or use an existing one) to be govern this. The authority is IANA, but it does not do that alone but builds a hierarchy. IANA basically says which other authority has control over a top-level domain like the NIC in charge of country-specific domains like .uk or .de, or in this case the one for .com (which is Verisign). These NICs in turn have a system of rules to establish who 'owns' the name. So Verisign decided to give the corporation Google the naming right to google.com, so they can decide which server is in charge of 'www.google.com'. But in theory your browser or your operating system could distrust this whole system and just uses an alternative authority. That would change nothing on a basic technical level, but every URL would lead to something completely different.

Now Satoshi Nakamoto (which is a Pseudonym) decided he wanted to do that without a central authority. He found a solution based on a system of blocks, each block verifying the one before (and therefore forming a chain). Now to decide which current block is correct, he used a verification mechanism based on computing power. Who fastest finds a certain number which is in part defined by the previous block can define which information goes into the current one. A correct block involves some more information, for instance consistent information. If for instance you have a blockchain for internet names, a block would be invalid if it defines a server for 'www.google.com', if already some other server owns that name. I read the white paper on the technical information some years ago, and needed some time to understand it. The main thing is: as long as a single attacker doesn't own the majority of the computing power in the whole network, they cannot change past blocks. This is a method that helps to create trust between a bunch of actors not trusting each other. As a proof of concept Nakamoto implemented his idea as a currency, because what needs trust more than money! Each block holds informations about transfers, so that at each point it is possible to declare who owns the limited overall number of bitcoins. Nobody can invalidate a transaction afterwards and transfer the bitcoins to a different owner.

Now, that was the technical level, but there is a social one. Each currency has a social level. Currencies over time had different ways to be defined, these days most currencies are Fiat money, which means an authority (we are back at this system) declares the money exists and who owns it. Mostly these days money is created if a company takes a credit at certified bank. The bank will create said money in their books (meaning these days computers) and write it into the account of the one tasking the credit, but demands payback with interest. If the credit is payed back, the money will be removed from the books, so the overall amount of money reduces again. Which banks are allowed to create money from thin air is regulated by laws, banks have to follow guidelines and are controlled by a central bank. For the US$ that central bank for instance is the Federal Reserve. Here again you see the system of authorities creating the trust in the system, trust that each transaction is valid, no double booking or other stuff.

Bitcoin as said before creates that trust out of a technical solution. But still the question arises: how is it associated with a value. Now, that works similar to classical currencies in theory ads market creates the price, in practice there are differences. For a US$ the value is derived from what prices are asked for stuff you buy. If people feel the dollar is devalued because of whatever, they will ask higher prices. If they feel it gains value, they will ask for lower prices to gain that coveted currency. Obviously each product you sell or buy may also differ in perceived value. Bitcoin on the other hand is barely used in day to day trade. Therefore it's value is mostly derived from speculation. In that regard Bitcoin works similar to a picture by a well-known artist or a rare stamp. The number of Bitcoins is limited and the number is known, the ownership is trusted. Therefore it works as speculation object. So in theory in both cases the market dictates the value, but as I see it day-to-day trade and speculation are very different markets.

I hpe that helps.



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Paatar said:

Could someone in layman’s terms explain “mining” to me? I’ve tried to understand it but I just can’t. How does it get “mined”? What’s the process? Why does it consume energy? What’s using energy to mine it?

Thank you so much.

As explained in my previous post, each block is validated by using computing power. The detail here is, that a hash is calculated that verifies both the current block and the previous one. But that hash has to fulfill some restrictions. To fulfill these restrictions a block contains a field that can be filled with any number. You have to pick a number for that field, so that the calculated hash for the block falls into these restrictions. As hash algorithms are highly unpredictable (by design), you basically have to try numbers (in difference to what SvennoJ said it doesn't have to be a prime number) until you find one that fits the conditions. That is what you need the computing power for and the computing power needs energy. The process of finding the next valid block is called mining.

The initial number of Bitcoins was given for the one mining the block, meaning, if you found the next block you could as part of the block transfer some amount of 'new' coins to your account. That number reduces over time towards zero, so that in the end the number of bitcoins is fixed. Miners also profit from mining by asking for a fee for each transaction (if you don't pay a high enough fee, your transaction might not be included in the next block and therefore not recorded in the Bitcoin network). So if you want your transaction to be recorded in the blockchain you pay a transaction fee (some percent of the transaction amount) and miners want to find the next block to get the transaction fee and the newly minted bitcoins as long as there are any.



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Lots of ignorance and misinformation here. It's expected, because you'll find lots of that everywhere. I can't blame you guys, as the tech and what it represents is still new and it's only natural and healthy to be skeptical of it, I was (and in some ways still am) as well.

I'm not going to explain what crypto is here, there is lots of info out there if you're interested. I just want to address some things that are being touched on in this thread.

- You don't need to be in any group, or be affiliated with anything or anyone to buy or sell cryptocoins. You can buy Bitcoin with almost any currency and once bought it is yours forever (until you sell of course). Owning Bitcoin (or other coins, but let's focus on Bitcoin for now) is like being your own bank. As long as you have the coins in your wallet, you own the coins, no one else. Contrary to popular belief, Bitcoin cannot be hacked. Of course, your Bitcoin can be stolen, like anything else. But what makes owning Bitcoin so attractive to many people is that it's immutable, borderless, trustless and unconfiscatable as long as you keep your private key to yourself. In this regard it's superior to traditional currencies. If you have money on a bank account, that money, in a literal sense, is not owned by you, but by your bank. Owning Bitcoin does not require trust as it is not owned by anyone but you. On the other hand, money in your bank account can be confiscated by any authority. Even in an extreme case like a solar flare frying half of the earth's electrics, it is likely your bank account will be wiped completely to be never recovered again because your money is stored on centralized servers. You will still be able to access your Bitcoin as long as there are a few miners still securing Bitcoin's network.

- I hear people say Bitcoin is a pyramid scam and totally worthless because it only exists digitally and is basically 'nothing'. It astounds me people think this way. First of all Bitcoin is scarce by design, it cannot be printed like traditional currencies can. And gamers especially should be able to realize being virtual says nothing about providing value. It's like saying a game world does not exist and is just pixels on a screen, therefore useless. Traditional currencies are just tokens created as a means of trade and entirely based on trust. Look at how fast a currency can collapse when an economy hits the shitter. It's a false sense of security to think traditional currencies are "real" as opposed to cryptocurrencies being "fake" or a scam.

- Arguments against Bitcoin have been used for as long as it exists: over 12 years now. In the meantime, Bitcoin is only being valued higher and higher each year. Think to yourself why. Is it truly a pyramid scheme and totally worthless just because it's virtual? Or does it perhaps provide a valuable alternative to our ever in value decreasing traditional currencies which have many faulty properties and are in control of a select few people who decide what happens with it?



Qwark said:

It's mostly speculation of the worth of a data based coin. Which takes stupid amounts of energy to mine. And when I say stupid amounts I am talking the electricity demand of the average US State or European country. Big enough for China to ban it. Also the hardware the miners use is obsolete in 6-12 months. So just another way to destruct the environment.

To be fair, it doesn't take too much for China to ban something.



Chrizum said:

Contrary to popular belief, Bitcoin cannot be hacked.

I am always cautious with claims like this. The basic theory of how Bitcoin works allows for 51% attack, which means anyone who owns more than half of the computing power of the Bitcoin network can manipulate the chain. For a new coin with few users that may be a real threat, but Bitcoin is pretty popular, so it seems unlikely one user or alliance of users can get enough computing power to outperform the majority of the network.

The security of Bitcoin also relies on the basic tech involved here, that is assymetric cryptography and hash algorithms. Nakamoto choose good reliable algorithms though (Elliptic Curve DSA and SHA-256 respectively), that are in wide usage outside of Bitcoin and so far no viable attacks are known.

Chrizum said:

Of course, your Bitcoin can be stolen, like anything else. But what makes owning Bitcoin so attractive to many people is that it's immutable, borderless, trustless and unconfiscatable as long as you keep your private key to yourself.

Yes, stealing your Bitcoins means stealing your key which gives ownership of all associated coins. Similarly losing that key means basically these coins are lost forever.

Chrizum said:

On the other hand, money in your bank account can be confiscated by any authority.

Well, same applies here as to thievery: authorities can confiscate your computer including your private key. If your private key is password-protected losing the file to authorities still means that your account is inaccessible by you.

Chrizum said:

- I hear people say Bitcoin is a pyramid scam and totally worthless because it only exists digitally and is basically 'nothing'

That are two different statements.

Obviously Bitcoin is *not* a pyramid scam. In that case everyone would try to sell you their bitcoin for really valuable currency, but mostly the opposite happens.

Bitcoin is indeed virtual, but that is not different to classic currencies, as these days most of them are Fiat money anyways, so only exists in books/computer files. The money printed on paper or pressed in coins is for most current currencies only a stand-in for money existing in books.

That all doesn't mean that there isn't a lot of scams and fraud surrounding Bitcoin. Bitcoin has become an object of speculation like art or gold. As such the usual crop of scammers and cheats are arising to try and swindle you out of your money - be it classic currency or Bitcoin. Bitcoin traders are not regulated, and a lot of them are not very trustworthy.



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