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Forums - General Discussion - Help me understand bitcoin

Chrizum said:
Jaicee said:

Thank you for your help, everyone! I feel like I kinda have a slightly better understanding of what bitcoin is now...sort of. I'm still confused about some particulars though.

Based on what's been shared about bitcoin being designed to increase in value over time through built-in shortages, it doesn't exactly sound like some populist rebellion against The Establishment like the bitcoin proponents here seem to be contending. If a currency is gaining value over time, that means a steadily decreasing share of the population has access to it over time, which means that it's designed to exclude most people and become affordable increasingly only to wealthier and wealthier people over time. The actual populists of old demanded just the opposite. They demanded the creation of "fiat currency", i.e. the replacement of the gold standard with the silver standard, and eventually paper money, so that they could afford to pay back their debts more easily by getting easier access to money. Bitcoin, by contrast, sounds to me more like rich people missing the exclusivity of the gold standard and rebelling against "fiat currency" to reassert something vaguely analogous thereto. By creating an increasingly scarce (scarce relative to population growth, that is) new currency that's designed to replace established national currencies that are subject to taxation and regulation by often democratically-elected governments, the hope seems to be to circumvent all remaining venues of democratic control over finance so that the capitalist class might avoid all remaining burden of social accountability altogether: all taxes and all responsibilities to the public. It sounds to me, in other words, like a thoroughly backward, reactionary, and deeply, deeply elitist concept.

What I'm still not understanding though are the core mechanics of it. I'm not a tech wizard. I'm just a 39-year-old grocery store clerk who dropped out of college. How exactly does one go about acquiring bitcoin, for example? Like in English? And exactly how is bitcoin "mined"? Like is there a computer somewhere that's calculating that whatever-it-is magic math equation that creates bitcoins automatically and that computational process is just popularly known as mining or something? Also...how again does this cause ecological damage? As best I can tell, bitcoin is just an idea, and one that doesn't have a physical form like paper money at that, and as such it's not actually being physically mined from the earth and extracted from trees. Just like...bitcoin is such a bad idea that it pains the Earth and metaphysically causes ecological damage? (I could almost believe that actually. It sounds a sufficiently terrible concept to me!)

Bitcoin is divisable, up to 0.00000001, which is called a Satoshi. So you don't need to buy an entire Bitcoin. It's not expensive to get into Bitcoin at all.

Bitcoin can be bought from a Bitcoin exchange, like Coinbase, Kraken and others.

Some people call Bitcoin bad for the environment because it costs lots of energy to mine it. I think coal energy is bad for he environment, not Bitcoin. Bitcoin mined with renewable energy is not bad for the environment at all. Some people think that energy is wasted by mining Bitcoin, in which case I understand why they think Bitcoin is bad for the environment. However I'm of the opinion that Bitcoin needs to exist in this world, it will fulfill an important role in our monetary system.

That's exactly what he means. By divising it up in smaller and smaller increments, instead of the 'old way' increasing the money supply, you safeguard the wealth of rich people and increase their wealth over time. The opposite of inflation. For example a bread that first cost 1 bitcoin, now costs 0.1 bitcoin so people can still buy bread. Inflation is in a way an equalizing factor where the hoarded wealth of the rich becomes worth less over time. Fixed or dwindling supply, requiring going to smaller and smaller denominations promotes inequality.

Using green energy to mine bitcoin is still bad. Imagine putting a million environmentally friendly cars on the road, electric, charged by green energy. They don't do much, just drive around randomly. (carrying the ledger around) They still need a lot of resources to be build and recycled at end of life. Just like all the computers that go into bitcoin mining. It's not just about the energy they use in operation. They also generate extra traffic. Bitcoin is just a drop in the bucket compared to all the other internet traffic but it still needs a fast internet connection from remote energy friendly places.

What is the important role that Bitcoin will fulfill?


One thing I don't quite understand is how does Bitcoin or how do you see your account balance. Is there a database encrypted with the most current hash somewhere, or does the entire blockchain have to be parsed each time to calculate your account balance? The blockchain of bitCoin is now 360 GB and keeps growing with each transaction. It already takes quite a while to get a copy of the blockchain but at least you only add to it at the end. Yet parsing this ever growing file to get your account balance can't go on indefinitely either?



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The funny thing about Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies is this:
common people continue to have doubts and being skeptical while the very important people keep buying huge amount of crypto currencies (in billions).

Why Tim Cook (Apple), Jeff Bezos (Amazon), Jack Dorsey (Twitter), Elon Musk (Tesla, Space X), Dan Schulman (PayPal) and many many others invest in this new economy? Why on the other hand, mainstream media keep saying to common people that's scam!?

That's the real question.

Considering this, one thing is for sure, the crypto / token economics is here to stay, and the big boys know this for long time.



JimmyFantasy said:

The funny thing about Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies is this:
common people continue to have doubts and being skeptical while the very important people keep buying huge amount of crypto currencies (in billions).

Why Tim Cook (Apple), Jeff Bezos (Amazon), Jack Dorsey (Twitter), Elon Musk (Tesla, Space X), Dan Schulman (PayPal) and many many others invest in this new economy? Why on the other hand, mainstream media keep saying to common people that's scam!?

That's the real question.

Considering this, one thing is for sure, the crypto / token economics is here to stay, and the big boys know this for long time.

The answer to this is pretty simple and not a conspiracy: rich people have money to invest and are able to lose investment without being ruined and therefore are willing to make more high risk bets. They also can use their own brokers they trust instead of one of the more public facing brokers, of which some are scammers. So yes, it is understable why the rich people invest. If Bitcoin crashes they lose some investment, but still are rich. If it takes off they are multiplying their investment.

And the media are generally telling everything that sounds like a good story. People tend to buy into stories, that anything new and unknown is dangerous, so enough media is willing to fulfill this need.



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SvennoJ said:
Chrizum said:

Bitcoin is divisable, up to 0.00000001, which is called a Satoshi. So you don't need to buy an entire Bitcoin. It's not expensive to get into Bitcoin at all.

Bitcoin can be bought from a Bitcoin exchange, like Coinbase, Kraken and others.

Some people call Bitcoin bad for the environment because it costs lots of energy to mine it. I think coal energy is bad for he environment, not Bitcoin. Bitcoin mined with renewable energy is not bad for the environment at all. Some people think that energy is wasted by mining Bitcoin, in which case I understand why they think Bitcoin is bad for the environment. However I'm of the opinion that Bitcoin needs to exist in this world, it will fulfill an important role in our monetary system.

That's exactly what he means. By divising it up in smaller and smaller increments, instead of the 'old way' increasing the money supply, you safeguard the wealth of rich people and increase their wealth over time. The opposite of inflation. For example a bread that first cost 1 bitcoin, now costs 0.1 bitcoin so people can still buy bread. Inflation is in a way an equalizing factor where the hoarded wealth of the rich becomes worth less over time. Fixed or dwindling supply, requiring going to smaller and smaller denominations promotes inequality.

Using green energy to mine bitcoin is still bad. Imagine putting a million environmentally friendly cars on the road, electric, charged by green energy. They don't do much, just drive around randomly. (carrying the ledger around) They still need a lot of resources to be build and recycled at end of life. Just like all the computers that go into bitcoin mining. It's not just about the energy they use in operation. They also generate extra traffic. Bitcoin is just a drop in the bucket compared to all the other internet traffic but it still needs a fast internet connection from remote energy friendly places.

What is the important role that Bitcoin will fulfill?


One thing I don't quite understand is how does Bitcoin or how do you see your account balance. Is there a database encrypted with the most current hash somewhere, or does the entire blockchain have to be parsed each time to calculate your account balance? The blockchain of bitCoin is now 360 GB and keeps growing with each transaction. It already takes quite a while to get a copy of the blockchain but at least you only add to it at the end. Yet parsing this ever growing file to get your account balance can't go on indefinitely either?

I couldn't disagree more with your statement that inflation is a good thing. In my opinion, the fact that the value of your money and purchasing power only becomes less with time, and is controlled by a few higher ups of the central bank, is one of the worst properties of fiat money. Bitcoin turns this around: no one is able to print more, no one controls inflation or deflation, the rules are known from the get-go and are equal for everybody. There is no power play. There is no central authority. It's the people's money instead of the banker's.

Bitcoin doesn't divide in smaller and smaller increments, it is divisible up to 0.00000001 from the get-go and will never change. The protocol is programmed this way. The only way to change it is to fork to a new blockchain, and then it becomes an entirely new coin.

You compare the security of the Bitcoin network to cars doing nothing but driving around aimlessly. I don't think I need to explain why this comparison falls flat on its face.

Last edited by Chrizum - on 16 November 2021

Chrizum said:

I couldn't disagree more with your statement that inflation is a good thing. In my opinion, the fact that the value of your money and purchasing power only becomes less with time, and is controlled by a few higher ups of the central bank, is one of the worst properties of fiat money. Bitcoin turns this around: no one is able to print more, no one controls inflation or deflation, the rules are known from the get-go and are equal for everybody. There is no power play. There is no central authority. It's the people's money instead of the banker's.

Bitcoin doesn't divide in smaller and smaller increments, it is divisible up to 0.00000001 from the get-go and will never change. The protocol is programmed this way. The only way to change it is to fork to a new blockchain, and then it becomes an entirely new coin.

You compare the security of the Bitcoin network to cars doing nothing but driving around aimlessly. I don't think I need to explain why this comparison falls flat on its face.

The comparison was to highlight the material costs. Using green energy doesn't make the process green.

With a fixed money supply you can't have increasing population. (Moderate) Inflation is healthy for the economy to grow and thrive. Anyway inflation doesn't come from printing more money. Interest rates, supply and demand are responsible for that.

I still don't see how switching to a fixed money supply would have been able to get us through a pandemic. Without governments borrowing tons of money to finance the necessary research and emergency equipment where would we have been now?

Global debt grew by almost 20 trillion dollars (extra money inserted) to get through the past couple years, but we're still here, vaccinated and all.
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2021-coronavirus-global-debt/




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SvennoJ said:
Chrizum said:

I couldn't disagree more with your statement that inflation is a good thing. In my opinion, the fact that the value of your money and purchasing power only becomes less with time, and is controlled by a few higher ups of the central bank, is one of the worst properties of fiat money. Bitcoin turns this around: no one is able to print more, no one controls inflation or deflation, the rules are known from the get-go and are equal for everybody. There is no power play. There is no central authority. It's the people's money instead of the banker's.

Bitcoin doesn't divide in smaller and smaller increments, it is divisible up to 0.00000001 from the get-go and will never change. The protocol is programmed this way. The only way to change it is to fork to a new blockchain, and then it becomes an entirely new coin.

You compare the security of the Bitcoin network to cars doing nothing but driving around aimlessly. I don't think I need to explain why this comparison falls flat on its face.

The comparison was to highlight the material costs. Using green energy doesn't make the process green.

With a fixed money supply you can't have increasing population. (Moderate) Inflation is healthy for the economy to grow and thrive. Anyway inflation doesn't come from printing more money. Interest rates, supply and demand are responsible for that.

I still don't see how switching to a fixed money supply would have been able to get us through a pandemic. Without governments borrowing tons of money to finance the necessary research and emergency equipment where would we have been now?

Global debt grew by almost 20 trillion dollars (extra money inserted) to get through the past couple years, but we're still here, vaccinated and all.
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2021-coronavirus-global-debt/


To clarify, I'm not advocating for Bitcoin to completely replace traditional fiat money, I don't believe that is viable. But I do think Bitcoin is a very important counterweight to fiat money. Remember, the dollar used to be backed by gold. Nowadays, dollars aren't backed by anything, they just get printed out of thin air. Over 40% of Us dollars in existence now have been printed in the last 12 months. Yes, the pandemic played an important role in this, but the trend started way before the pandemic. And you are correct when you say interest rates are also responsible for inflation, but guess who controls interest rates as well? Yup, central bank again. It is extremely dangerous to put that kind of power into the hands of a select few who have no intention for proper wealth distribution.

Look at Bitcoin as an improved kind of gold: it is scarce, like gold, but much easier to transfer and safer to hold. Bitcoin is a store of value, although currently it is too volatile too properly function as a store of value in shorter terms. When the price stabilizes at a much higher price point, it'll be a superior means of store of value than gold.



Chrizum said:

To clarify, I'm not advocating for Bitcoin to completely replace traditional fiat money, I don't believe that is viable. But I do think Bitcoin is a very important counterweight to fiat money. Remember, the dollar used to be backed by gold. Nowadays, dollars aren't backed by anything, they just get printed out of thin air. Over 40% of Us dollars in existence now have been printed in the last 12 months. Yes, the pandemic played an important role in this, but the trend started way before the pandemic. And you are correct when you say interest rates are also responsible for inflation, but guess who controls interest rates as well? Yup, central bank again. It is extremely dangerous to put that kind of power into the hands of a select few who have no intention for proper wealth distribution.

Look at Bitcoin as an improved kind of gold: it is scarce, like gold, but much easier to transfer and safer to hold. Bitcoin is a store of value, although currently it is too volatile too properly function as a store of value in shorter terms. When the price stabilizes at a much higher price point, it'll be a superior means of store of value than gold.

It might be a select few, but ultimately, we select them. There is oversight and there are boundaries. But true, the bailout to the rich was pretty disgusting when the housing bubble burst. The big investors in Bitcoin better not come asking for a bailout if bitcoin ever crashes.

Property is still your safest bet to store wealth. Imo gold is also still a safer bet. Bitcoin is only worth something as long as people want it. Once it loses it high growth appeal, will it still be as attractive? How many people are going to switch to the next lucrative proposition. In the end, all you have is a key to a number stored in a secure file. Secure as long as people keep adding to blockChain.

Will the price stabilize at a much higher price point? Or will it stabilize at a much lower price point after the lucrative growth runs out. It is designed to become less and less rewarding to mine / maintain, requiring higher transaction fees to keep people motivated to maintain the network.
https://www.nme.com/news/gaming-news/700000-graphics-cards-were-bought-by-crypto-miners-in-early-2021-alone-2973241
Analysts at Jon Peddie Research claim that the crypto-mining industry was responsible for purchasing 25% of all GPUs in the first months of 2021. They estimate that this translates to “700,000 high-end and mid range” graphics cards which are worth around $500million in market value.
With the dwindling supply of new bit coins, will the transaction fees people are willing to pay be enough to keep this kind of growing investment going?

Anyway it's fascinating to watch, just saw a 7 million dollar transaction scroll by. 8.9 million 147 bit coins, 10, 11.7, 13 million. Stuff is moving.
https://www.blockchain.com/explorer?view=btc



Can't do this with bitcoin.  Like some above have said, I like property, gold, silver, fine art and company investments.  But my favorite is physical precious metals, it's fun to hold and play with.  I have too much silver to put on the table, the weight would collapse it. Maybe one of these days I'll photograph it while displayed, I need to update it anyways for insurance purposes.  With the silver I have invested in sizes all the way down to 1/10ths of an ounce fractionals to be able to trade and barter if there was an economic breakdown.

This isn't a way to get rich or make money, it's a good hedge against inflation.  If you have money in a savings or checking account, it's being devalued by the cost of everything going up.  Don't let it sit there, do something with it.  



...to avoid getting banned for inactivity, I may have to resort to comments that are of a lower overall quality and or beneath my moral standards.