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Forums - General Discussion - Help me understand bitcoin

Qwark on 14 November 2021
jason1637 said:
SvennoJ said:

This is a fallacy in thinking imo. That clean energy could be better used for more essential things. Hoarding clean energy to 'justify' doing useless complex math problems isn't helping the environment. Nor will it solve the scalability problem.
https://hackernoon.com/the-blockchain-scalability-problem-the-race-for-visa-like-transaction-speed-5cce48f9d44

I mean clean energy will need to become universal to stop the climate crisis. At a certain point were gonna be using clean energy for gaming. As for the scalability issue I'm not really aware of that so I can't really speak on it.

I wouldn't be that sure about it. Bitcoin mining will go to wherever energy is cheaper and when there is a much bigger supply than demand for coal, cryptomining might very well go to the place where coal is burned. Also only a fracture if the energy on this earth is generated sustainably, so before clean energy is globally available and there is a surpluss enough of it to power half of Europe (cryptomining will only get more energy intensive and the demand for electricity for bitcoin is already bigger then the electricity demand of NL). I seriously doubt we live to see that day.



Please excuse my (probally) poor grammar

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SvennoJ on 14 November 2021
bowserthedog said:

I don't agree with the assertion that Bitcoin was created so that the rich could get richer and so it could be manipulated. It was designed as an alternative to fiat currency which is heavily manipulated by corrupt governments. Bitcoin has a fixed supply schedule. Every 4 years the number of new bitcoin that can be minted is cut in half. Secondly the average joe has had years to front run bitcoin. Unlike stocks where the rich only can get involved with presales and then dump it on the backs of retail investors with bitcoin the institutions only really started to get into it in the last year or two and they've been pumping the bags of retail investors. 

Maybe not the old rich, but it's definitely designed to make the creators trillionaires. Every 4 years the number of new bitcoin that can be minted is cut in half. If that doesn't scream designed to make the early investors super wealthy, then what does. It's upside down. What does the average Joe, walking around in the 3rd world (the majority of the population of this planet) benefit? We (on here) all are the rich, part of the 1%!



bowserthedog on 14 November 2021
SvennoJ said:
bowserthedog said:

I don't agree with the assertion that Bitcoin was created so that the rich could get richer and so it could be manipulated. It was designed as an alternative to fiat currency which is heavily manipulated by corrupt governments. Bitcoin has a fixed supply schedule. Every 4 years the number of new bitcoin that can be minted is cut in half. Secondly the average joe has had years to front run bitcoin. Unlike stocks where the rich only can get involved with presales and then dump it on the backs of retail investors with bitcoin the institutions only really started to get into it in the last year or two and they've been pumping the bags of retail investors. 

Maybe not the old rich, but it's definitely designed to make the creators trillionaires. Every 4 years the number of new bitcoin that can be minted is cut in half. If that doesn't scream designed to make the early investors super wealthy, then what does. It's upside down. What does the average Joe, walking around in the 3rd world (the majority of the population of this planet) benefit? We (on here) all are the rich, part of the 1%!

It's designed to appreciate over the course of time.  Sure with anything that gets big the early you go in the better it is for you. I think it's a bit presumptuous to suggest that when someone creates something new they should build features into it that is sure to benefit a poor person in a 3rd world country. That's a straw man argument if I've ever seen it. Many things could be dismissed automatically if that standard was applied equally to all creations. And oddly enough Bitcoin is indeed benefitting those in 3rd world countries. El Salvador is getting big into it and are finding a way to monetize natural volcanic energy to mine for bitcoin. It's creating an industry in a 3rd world country where opportunities for new industries and jobs are limited. The early adopters are of course doing well if they held their bitcoin but they also took tremendous risks. There was no certainty that it would take off the way that it did. Had there been certainty many more people would have invested at that time.



https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0JquK6FGR6O-0O-6L-VAuw

bowserthedog on 14 November 2021

Cryptocurrency has led to the opportunity for more people in 3rd world countries to access stable currencies. Some in 3rd world countries are simply converting their unstable local fiat into US dollar pegged stablecoins. Access to American dollars was difficult for many before cryptocurrency.



https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0JquK6FGR6O-0O-6L-VAuw

jlauro on 14 November 2021
SvennoJ said:

Maybe not the old rich, but it's definitely designed to make the creators trillionaires. Every 4 years the number of new bitcoin that can be minted is cut in half. If that doesn't scream designed to make the early investors super wealthy, then what does. It's upside down. What does the average Joe, walking around in the 3rd world (the majority of the population of this planet) benefit? We (on here) all are the rich, part of the 1%!

The standard of living has gone up around the world.  Instead of the top 1%, being on here I would guess is closer to a sign of somewhere between top 10% to top 40%, maybe even top 60% depending on whose numbers you go by. Still fun facts like top 1% have 47% of the wealth, but being around the 50% mark is a lot better now than 50 years ago...



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SvennoJ on 14 November 2021
bowserthedog said:

It's designed to appreciate over the course of time.  Sure with anything that gets big the early you go in the better it is for you. I think it's a bit presumptuous to suggest that when someone creates something new they should build features into it that is sure to benefit a poor person in a 3rd world country. That's a straw man argument if I've ever seen it. Many things could be dismissed automatically if that standard was applied equally to all creations. And oddly enough Bitcoin is indeed benefitting those in 3rd world countries. El Salvador is getting big into it and are finding a way to monetize natural volcanic energy to mine for bitcoin. It's creating an industry in a 3rd world country where opportunities for new industries and jobs are limited. The early adopters are of course doing well if they held their bitcoin but they also took tremendous risks. There was no certainty that it would take off the way that it did. Had there been certainty many more people would have invested at that time.

What a waste of energy, it could be used for a lot more useful things. But at least they'll have that capacity left after bitcoin crashes.

You can defend this huge energy waste all you want, but you're not going to convince me bitcoin is there for altruistic reasons. It's not a stable currency either, but it is one that has been increasing in value so far and will as long as people keep buying into it. Tremendous risks is also a bit far fetched. Maybe the actual creators took a risk, a lot of the early buy ins just got a couple bit coins for the novelty factor or got into mining to have their idle gpu do something.

It created an industry build on wasting energy. The very principle it's rooted in is in that it has to cost enough energy so no single group can tamper with it. You don't fix something (corrupt governments manipulating money) by replacing it with something much worse.



SvennoJ on 14 November 2021
jlauro said:
SvennoJ said:

Maybe not the old rich, but it's definitely designed to make the creators trillionaires. Every 4 years the number of new bitcoin that can be minted is cut in half. If that doesn't scream designed to make the early investors super wealthy, then what does. It's upside down. What does the average Joe, walking around in the 3rd world (the majority of the population of this planet) benefit? We (on here) all are the rich, part of the 1%!

The standard of living has gone up around the world.  Instead of the top 1%, being on here I would guess is closer to a sign of somewhere between top 10% to top 40%, maybe even top 60% depending on whose numbers you go by. Still fun facts like top 1% have 47% of the wealth, but being around the 50% mark is a lot better now than 50 years ago...

Income inequality is still on the rise, and yeah fun fact. Old graph I guess, 47% now?

60% on here, I don't think so.



KungKras on 14 November 2021

Stay away from crypto and just invest in regular index funds instead. That's about all you need to know about it.



I LOVE ICELAND!

bowserthedog on 14 November 2021
SvennoJ said:
bowserthedog said:

It's designed to appreciate over the course of time.  Sure with anything that gets big the early you go in the better it is for you. I think it's a bit presumptuous to suggest that when someone creates something new they should build features into it that is sure to benefit a poor person in a 3rd world country. That's a straw man argument if I've ever seen it. Many things could be dismissed automatically if that standard was applied equally to all creations. And oddly enough Bitcoin is indeed benefitting those in 3rd world countries. El Salvador is getting big into it and are finding a way to monetize natural volcanic energy to mine for bitcoin. It's creating an industry in a 3rd world country where opportunities for new industries and jobs are limited. The early adopters are of course doing well if they held their bitcoin but they also took tremendous risks. There was no certainty that it would take off the way that it did. Had there been certainty many more people would have invested at that time.

What a waste of energy, it could be used for a lot more useful things. But at least they'll have that capacity left after bitcoin crashes.

You can defend this huge energy waste all you want, but you're not going to convince me bitcoin is there for altruistic reasons. It's not a stable currency either, but it is one that has been increasing in value so far and will as long as people keep buying into it. Tremendous risks is also a bit far fetched. Maybe the actual creators took a risk, a lot of the early buy ins just got a couple bit coins for the novelty factor or got into mining to have their idle gpu do something.

It created an industry build on wasting energy. The very principle it's rooted in is in that it has to cost enough energy so no single group can tamper with it. You don't fix something (corrupt governments manipulating money) by replacing it with something much worse.

I never suggested that Bitcoin was a stable currency. I was clearly talking about US dollar backed stablecoins. 

There is more energy used in the traditional monetary system as well as trees being cut down etc to create paper money. The large picture value to crypto existing is that when the traditional system fails we will have a backup system in place. Which is actually pretty important. You do the math and tell me how the US dollar with all the debt and money printing has a safe long term outlook. 



https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0JquK6FGR6O-0O-6L-VAuw

Chrizum on 14 November 2021
SvennoJ said:
bowserthedog said:

It's designed to appreciate over the course of time.  Sure with anything that gets big the early you go in the better it is for you. I think it's a bit presumptuous to suggest that when someone creates something new they should build features into it that is sure to benefit a poor person in a 3rd world country. That's a straw man argument if I've ever seen it. Many things could be dismissed automatically if that standard was applied equally to all creations. And oddly enough Bitcoin is indeed benefitting those in 3rd world countries. El Salvador is getting big into it and are finding a way to monetize natural volcanic energy to mine for bitcoin. It's creating an industry in a 3rd world country where opportunities for new industries and jobs are limited. The early adopters are of course doing well if they held their bitcoin but they also took tremendous risks. There was no certainty that it would take off the way that it did. Had there been certainty many more people would have invested at that time.

What a waste of energy, it could be used for a lot more useful things. But at least they'll have that capacity left after bitcoin crashes.

You can defend this huge energy waste all you want, but you're not going to convince me bitcoin is there for altruistic reasons. It's not a stable currency either, but it is one that has been increasing in value so far and will as long as people keep buying into it. Tremendous risks is also a bit far fetched. Maybe the actual creators took a risk, a lot of the early buy ins just got a couple bit coins for the novelty factor or got into mining to have their idle gpu do something.

It created an industry build on wasting energy. The very principle it's rooted in is in that it has to cost enough energy so no single group can tamper with it. You don't fix something (corrupt governments manipulating money) by replacing it with something much worse.

Your criticism on Bitcoin is not completely unfounded, but I wish you'd be even half as critical on traditional money so to speak. Because our traditional monetary system with its debt promoting and totalitarian properties is one of the reasons the gap between poor and rich is so big. I for one celebrate that there is an alternative being provided, even if it's still in its infancy and thus flawed still.