By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Sales Discussion - Famitsu sales: Week 38, 2021 - (13th Sept - 19th Sept)

Otter said:

Not being dictated by fidelity and holding up sound on devices that you can also take on the go, is inherently favouring portability. This is also why Switch is doing so well with indies in the west. 

No it just means you need more than pretty graphics to be sold on something it's not inherently favouring anything if you're unable to come up with anything more compelling as a selling poing than fidelity it's not the market favouring a type of specs it's your lack of substance that is the problem in that situation. Indies are doing well in the west on Switch because Nintendo pushes them on the platform so? No different than what MS did during the 360 era, even MS' own Ori games and Cuphead did just as well as any indie game because they were pushed and those aren't the same as the usual high fidelity games.



Around the Network
Wyrdness said:
Otter said:

Not being dictated by fidelity and holding up sound on devices that you can also take on the go, is inherently favouring portability. This is also why Switch is doing so well with indies in the west. 

No it just means you need more than pretty graphics to be sold on something it's not inherently favouring anything if you're unable to come up with anything more compelling as a selling poing than fidelity it's not the market favouring a type of specs it's your lack of substance that is the problem in that situation. Indies are doing well in the west on Switch because Nintendo pushes them on the platform so? No different than what MS did during the 360 era, even MS' own Ori games and Cuphead did just as well as any indie game because they were pushed and those aren't the same as the usual high fidelity games.

Why would someone buy a 2D pixel art game on PS4 instead of the Switch? Any game that doesn't benefit from higher power spec, I buy on a portable platforms and this evident in sales across the board. Rayman Legends was a great example performing disproportionately well on PSVita compared to home consoles. As a result if you develop 2D platforms you keep those platforms in mind. 

Its clear that you are steafast in your belief that portability has no central role in how the markets have evolved. I'll leave you with that belief.



Otter said:
Wyrdness said:

You compared Vita to two struggling home platforms though I don't think you can act like your argument was a fair comparison either, PS2 outsold GBA and also the PSP even in Japan in its era when the GC was around while PS1 was only outsold by the GB due to the GBC it still however hit 21m and blew away all other portables in the era of the N64 which makes your Vita argument something of a cherry pick to go for GC and N64 when they weren't even the leading platforms back then. Vita didn't have the games you say but it did get a number of games the region liked such as P4 Golden, Atelier games, Disgaea series, Dragon Quest games in builders and heroes, Vanillaware titles like Dragon's Crown, numerous Warriors titles etc... Now compare that to what the N64 and GC got in the region and you'll see that the Vita did as well as it did because it still had the software the region likes which brings up the next point.

The success of portables isn't a regional preference thing on hardware as consoles and portables where at one point blow for blow in the region and portables are still doing the same numbers they did before the true reason for the change in home platform performance is that the leading home platform moved away from the games the region like, the PS3 began shifted to a more western style approach Rol pointed it out just fine that the games the region liked weren't being focused on as much or pushed and this has only increased in the following gens. You can call people defensive and say you won't have ears all you want but these are legitimate factors in the market as when you don't cater to a market's preference you begin to fall out of favour no matter what hardware you release this even applies to software itself as seen in games like Final Fantasy which followed suit in being more suited to western tastes and has dropped significantly in presence in the region portables however kept pushing the same type of games the region liked so the result is people migrated more towards them it's not a preference for portable play its the software.

The result is the market defaulted to buying portable platforms as that was where most of the games they preferred were on.

Its not cherry picking or unfair. The Vita's best selling game barely passed 300k in Japan, its also a re-release. We can't compare the likes of Disgaea, Dragon Crown, Persona 4 Golden and Hiku to the far bigger titles we saw home platforms like Smash Bros, Mario Kart, 3D Mario etc. The gamecube also had plenty of niche titles. I'd also argue that many of the niche games like Hiku that flourished on the Vita would struggle far more on a home console. There's inherently different appeal to certain games and play styles, animal crossing for example excels in portable format. 

If a home console was limited to PSVita's library, it would of sold abysmally in Japan. That was the telling thing from the hardware comparison
 
As far as comparing the likes of PS2 to GBA there's obviously a limit to the kind of games a GBA/16bit device can offer, once the handhelds moved to realising 3D worlds it was a wrap. PSP was literally neck and neck with the PS2 sales wise but we can see that the inidvidual selling power of PSP games were far behind their PS2 counterparts. Japanese developers preferring to develop on portable/low spec machines doesn't negate the fact that portables have an advantage in the market, in fact it only reinforces it. The only reason why this is misunderstood is because its being perceived in a Sony vs Nintendo lens.


Minecraft sold over 1.2mil on the Vita in Japan. And according to famitsu three other games sold over 300k physical alone including P4 Golden.



Kakadu18 said:
Otter said:

Its not cherry picking or unfair. The Vita's best selling game barely passed 300k in Japan, its also a re-release. We can't compare the likes of Disgaea, Dragon Crown, Persona 4 Golden and Hiku to the far bigger titles we saw home platforms like Smash Bros, Mario Kart, 3D Mario etc. The gamecube also had plenty of niche titles. I'd also argue that many of the niche games like Hiku that flourished on the Vita would struggle far more on a home console. There's inherently different appeal to certain games and play styles, animal crossing for example excels in portable format. 

If a home console was limited to PSVita's library, it would of sold abysmally in Japan. That was the telling thing from the hardware comparison
 
As far as comparing the likes of PS2 to GBA there's obviously a limit to the kind of games a GBA/16bit device can offer, once the handhelds moved to realising 3D worlds it was a wrap. PSP was literally neck and neck with the PS2 sales wise but we can see that the inidvidual selling power of PSP games were far behind their PS2 counterparts. Japanese developers preferring to develop on portable/low spec machines doesn't negate the fact that portables have an advantage in the market, in fact it only reinforces it. The only reason why this is misunderstood is because its being perceived in a Sony vs Nintendo lens.


Minecraft sold over 1.2mil on the Vita in Japan. And according to famitsu three other games sold over 300k physical alone including P4 Golden.

Yeah, I should have stated physical sales since we don't have the digital sales for most games.

Last edited by Otter - on 29 September 2021

padib said:

The guy already wants to leave the thread, take it slow.

At the end of the day it's not a binary question, 10s of significant factors are at play in the success of a console in any region. To say it is just that games cater to the region is much too simplistic. The virtual boy might have had all the games to appeal to japan it still would've failed.

My point is that while the game library is very important, it is not true what Rol said that it is the only thing that matters. Esp. For portables, we have brand name and battery life to factor in, price, lifecycle (ex GBA was cut short by the DS), competition, etc.

If he wants to leave he's free to do so I don't get this part of your reply comes across as antagonistic tbh.

I'm going to call out this logic because look at all the platforms that did have the range of games they did well and the differences between the platforms you may not agree with Rol but he's historically backed up by the performance of platforms that did have what he pointed out and those that didn't have it.



Around the Network
Otter said:
Wyrdness said:

No it just means you need more than pretty graphics to be sold on something it's not inherently favouring anything if you're unable to come up with anything more compelling as a selling poing than fidelity it's not the market favouring a type of specs it's your lack of substance that is the problem in that situation. Indies are doing well in the west on Switch because Nintendo pushes them on the platform so? No different than what MS did during the 360 era, even MS' own Ori games and Cuphead did just as well as any indie game because they were pushed and those aren't the same as the usual high fidelity games.

Why would someone buy a 2D pixel art game on PS4 instead of the Switch? Any game that doesn't benefit from higher power spec, I buy on a portable platforms and this evident in sales across the board. Rayman Legends was a great example performing disproportionately well on PSVita compared to home consoles. As a result if you develop 2D platforms you keep those platforms in mind. 

Its clear that you are steafast in your belief that portability has no central role in how the markets have evolved. I'll leave you with that belief.

The same reason people have bought 2d games on PC where indies are flying as well, markets evolve yeah but some factors remain.



padib said:

Nothing antagonistic about my post, everything is cool.

The reason why he is backed up is due to causation. Nobody will back up a dysfunctional console. It doesn't mean that his argument is bible.

The importance of a games library that is on point is absolutely undeniable. But to say it is the only thing that matters is incorrect.

For instance, the GBA had a very japan-oriented library and it sold less than its brethren. To understand why, you need to look at other factors such as competition (in this case internal competition, Nintendo itself). The GBA was cut short due to the early arrival of the DS, it dropped fast. Also, Nintendo consoles tend to follow the drum beat of Nintendo while other consoles would not have needed that in order to continue to succeed. But then there is also the question, if the GBA was the 2nd pillar, why did it not continue to thrive? The answer is related to platform competition, you couldn't at that time have software so easily released everywhere esp. due to lack of HW parity, so the library would've been split. Devs just preferred to migrate to DS.

Fair point but then let's look at the two platforms that did get some support despite their failure in the Vita and the Saturn. Both despite their disastrous runs got decent enough support and as a result got sales just shy of 6m more than half of what PS3 and PS4 have managed.

Saturn even had the notorious rep of being hard to develop for and some function issues yet it is Sega's best performing hardware in the region. Other Sega platforms never got the same level of support it did as developers opted for Nintendo often, the support is what gave the platform momentum to reach its LT performance. 

So even a flawed platform with support can still do something of note which is why ultimately it is not whether something is portable or not it is whether the library is there to add appeal and consoles for 15 years weren't doing that. 



padib said:
Wyrdness said:

Fair point but then let's look at the two platforms that did get some support despite their failure in the Vita and the Saturn. Both despite their disastrous runs got decent enough support and as a result got sales just shy of 6m more than half of what PS3 and PS4 have managed.

Saturn even had the notorious rep of being hard to develop for and some function issues yet it is Sega's best performing hardware in the region. Other Sega platforms never got the same level of support it did as developers opted for Nintendo often, the support is what gave the platform momentum to reach its LT performance. 

So even a flawed platform with support can still do something of note which is why ultimately it is not whether something is portable or not it is whether the library is there to add appeal and consoles for 15 years weren't doing that. 

Great questions.

Saturn

I can explain the Saturn, but in my earlier post I had sources in the footer that might interest you, of note:

The Sega Saturn in Japan: https://youtu.be/NkuD8rOndSo

The whole video is super interesting for people like you and I who are interested in japan sales, but you can start at 10:55 if you want the moment where things shifted.

What happened is that Sony had stolen Final Fantasy from Nintendo, and it made a massive impact on the perception of value in consoles in Japan. Suddenly the Playstation was the Jewel of the industry thanks almost entirely to FFVII. Here is another factor that comes into play: killer apps. They make a huge difference.

The video explains that, up until 1997, the Saturn was enjoying near-parity w PS in Japan due to a high-volume of 2D japan-centric games and almost everything else common between the two consoles except for difficulty to develop for the Saturn. As of FFVII, everything changed.

Vita

I have two more posts to make before I feel comfortable giving a definitive reply, but what we know about the Vita is that it had almost unanimous 3rd party support in Japan, except for Sony 1st-party games. This propped it up as it ended up selling a 5.86M Japanese of 16M worldwide (36%) (source).

However, in this case, competition is very important to consider. Even though the Vita had a plethora of games coming out for it, being the favorite platform for Devs who were used to finding green pasture outside of Nintendo consoles, it still failed to push out stronger sales. This is because the 3DS absolutely dominated Japan with 24.66M of 75.94M (32%). So while the two are good portable consoles with a vast library of games appealing to Japan, the 3DS was cheaper, had Nintendo's 1st party support which attracted the Japanese, and Sony was not supporting its own console. The Vita also had memory card pricing issues, other things the 3DS did not have to deal with. Also, Nintendo secured a killer app with Monster Hunter. That was a disastrous move for the Vita. Monster Hunter had been the killer app of the PSP, and now it was on the 3DS.

This again proves that you can have lots of games that cater to the japanese, it doesn't guarantee success there. How did the 3DS beat the Vita when it had so much 3rd party support? The answer is that, by that time, Nintendo's 1st party lineup had become popular after the Wii/DS generation, the 3DS' launch schedule was decent and had decent 3rd party support, and it had killer apps and was better priced.

Had the 3DS not existed, the Vita would've performed nicely.

And 3ds is a weaker Nintendo handheld. The initial price, the focus on 3d and the lack of games at launch meant that the handheld started below the company's forecast, enough for it to make a price cut right away.



HoangNhatAnh said:
src said:

The collapse of the home console was apparent 10 years ago. Japanese third parties know it, which is why they have moved onto the far bigger overseas market and are making more money than ever by doing it, Sony knows it, which is why it understands the decline in Playstation, and Nintendo knows it, which is why they no longer make home console's only.

N64 - 4.5M
GCN - 4M
Wii - 12.7M
WiiU - 3.3M

PS1 - 18.8M
PS2 - 21.2M
PS3 - 10.2M
PS4 - 9.4M (no major price cuts below $299)

Yeah, Switch Lite (smaller and cheaper portable) sold more than Switch and Ring Fit Adventure (requires TV screen) sold terrible, said no one ever.

A hilariously bad rebuttal.

Wii had games that sold 3 million+

MHW on PS4 is at 3 million+

There existing a multi-million selling game does not negate Japan moving away from home consoles for the past 15 years.

Its great entertainment to see you try and deny the most obvious market reality by its own data.



padib said:
Wyrdness said:

Fair point but then let's look at the two platforms that did get some support despite their failure in the Vita and the Saturn. Both despite their disastrous runs got decent enough support and as a result got sales just shy of 6m more than half of what PS3 and PS4 have managed.

Saturn even had the notorious rep of being hard to develop for and some function issues yet it is Sega's best performing hardware in the region. Other Sega platforms never got the same level of support it did as developers opted for Nintendo often, the support is what gave the platform momentum to reach its LT performance. 

So even a flawed platform with support can still do something of note which is why ultimately it is not whether something is portable or not it is whether the library is there to add appeal and consoles for 15 years weren't doing that. 

Great questions.

Saturn

I can explain the Saturn, but in my earlier post I had sources in the footer that might interest you, of note:

The Sega Saturn in Japan: https://youtu.be/NkuD8rOndSo

The whole video is super interesting for people like you and I who are interested in japan sales, but you can start at 10:55 if you want the moment where things shifted.

What happened is that Sony had stolen Final Fantasy from Nintendo, and it made a massive impact on the perception of value in consoles in Japan. Suddenly the Playstation was the Jewel of the industry thanks almost entirely to FFVII. Here is another factor that comes into play: killer apps. They make a huge difference.

The video explains that, up until 1997, the Saturn was enjoying near-parity w PS in Japan due to a high-volume of 2D japan-centric games and almost everything else common between the two consoles except for difficulty to develop for the Saturn. As of FFVII, everything changed.

Vita

I have two more posts to make before I feel comfortable giving a definitive reply, but what we know about the Vita is that it had almost unanimous 3rd party support in Japan, except for Sony 1st-party games. This propped it up as it ended up selling a 5.86M Japanese of 16M worldwide (36%) (source).

However, in this case, competition is very important to consider. Even though the Vita had a plethora of games coming out for it, being the favorite platform for Devs who were used to finding green pasture outside of Nintendo consoles, it still failed to push out stronger sales. This is because the 3DS absolutely dominated Japan with 24.66M of 75.94M (32%). So while the two are good portable consoles with a vast library of games appealing to Japan, the 3DS was cheaper, had Nintendo's 1st party support which attracted the Japanese, and Sony was not supporting its own console. The Vita also had memory card pricing issues, other things the 3DS did not have to deal with. Also, Nintendo secured a killer app with Monster Hunter. That was a disastrous move for the Vita. Monster Hunter had been the killer app of the PSP, and now it was on the 3DS.

This again proves that you can have lots of games that cater to the japanese, it doesn't guarantee success there. How did the 3DS beat the Vita when it had so much 3rd party support? The answer is that, by that time, Nintendo's 1st party lineup had become popular after the Wii/DS generation, the 3DS' launch schedule was decent and had decent 3rd party support, and it had killer apps and was better priced.

Had the 3DS not existed, the Vita would've performed nicely.

Will watch the videos a bit later after my shift an interesting thing to note Saturn actually outsold the N64 in Japan, on the 3DS it had a bigger library and support to cater to the region that's why it won out. The Vita had decent support but the 3DS had great support it was a PS1/Saturn like situation only the killer app arrived much earlier for the 3DS and not just one either several came in succession, if Vita didn't have the support it did it would have struggled to even hit 2m against the 3DS, Nintendo's first party offering was always popular even long before the Wii/DS the difference is that on those platforms they had the support to compliment them.

The performances of not only the Saturn but also the Vita to me highlight that even a sinking ship can salvage a respectable performance in Japan if you do have the games as one outsold a competitor and went blow for blow with the market leader until a notable killer app arrived while another clawed out a decent chunk for itself against the odds against a very notable platform.