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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - What I Want to See With Metroid & What Could Push a Metroid Game to 20 Million Units?

The thread as a whole is pretty bad, but tying it up all together by ending it with a Xenoblade 2 video makes it perfectly bad.

1. The Metroid template design is basically having a labyrinth type design to it while progressively getting access to new areas with the new items you get, there can be open design, good examples of that are Super and Zero Mission, where if the player is skilled enough, they can sequence break items and areas, keeping the design tight while still letting the player have freedom of play, doing stuff out of order and the like. 

2. "Metroid is off-putting, don't make it Metroid"

3. I'll put in the sequence break aspects of Super and Zero Mission in the emergent gameplay thing, there can be really good moments for the player, like making a tight wall jump in Super to access Kraid early, or getting creative with your path around Zero Mission to get the 15% ending, Metroid has these things.

4. No

5. HAVE YOU PLAYED METROID?



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Leynos said:

Desolation is literally the point of the series. Removing that is a big reason why Other M sucks. Hunters Sucks. Fed force sucks. MP2 multiplayer sucks.

For me the point is exploration. I don’t find original games don’t have that same desolation feeling of the Prime games. This is despite being 2D and having limited colour palette while Metroid Prime had full access to some of the most advanced 3D art of its time. Speaking from my experience, I find the 2D games much more lively, more interesting, more inviting to explore. Now, that’s just me, and it’s obvious that there is a very die hard group of fans that like how Prime did it. I’ve never played Metroid Prime 2 or Other M, so I can’t comment, other than that I’ve read the big problem with Other M was Samus’s characterization.

But removing some of the elements that some of the 3D fans love is exactly what was done with Zelda. The main focus of the pre-BotW 3D Zeldas was on getting keys/items and clearing a series of long labyrinthine dungeons. Breath of the Wild, instead, brought the focus to the overworld. That resulted in a much more interesting experience to a greater number of people. As a result, it’s so far sold 15 million+ more units than any previous Zelda. It will probably sell an additional 5-10 million this year, and maybe even next.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

ARamdomGamer said:

The thread as a whole is pretty bad, but tying it up all together by ending it with a Xenoblade 2 video makes it perfectly bad.

1. The Metroid template design is basically having a labyrinth type design to it while progressively getting access to new areas with the new items you get, there can be open design, good examples of that are Super and Zero Mission, where if the player is skilled enough, they can sequence break items and areas, keeping the design tight while still letting the player have freedom of play, doing stuff out of order and the like. 

2. "Metroid is off-putting, don't make it Metroid"

3. I'll put in the sequence break aspects of Super and Zero Mission in the emergent gameplay thing, there can be really good moments for the player, like making a tight wall jump in Super to access Kraid early, or getting creative with your path around Zero Mission to get the 15% ending, Metroid has these things.

4. No

5. HAVE YOU PLAYED METROID?

1. But the point of the thread is NOT how to retread the same formula, but how to use the IP to make something much more widely appealing.

2. Strawman

3. While I haven’t played it, Zero Mission is based on Metroid 1, that’s actually the spirit I’d like to see the franchise return to.

4. Yes.

5. Yes. Metroid 1, 2, some Super Metroid, and a few hours of Prime.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

Give it a stellar online multiplayer mode.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1gWECYYOSo

Please Watch/Share this video so it gets shown in Hollywood.

Mar1217 said:

First, unless Nintendo advertise the game to hell and back like Microsoft would do with Halo, change most of the corners points of what a Metroidvania type game is to fit modern sensibilities and trends (NOT EVERY GAME NEEDS TO BE OPEN WORLD JESUS !) rendering the experience worse in some obvious aspects than it's predecessor .... a big maybe.

5M would be a better bet as of now while maintaining most of it's current gameplay aspects.

I agree that not every game needs to be open world. But I think it makes a lot of sense for the Metroid franchise. More sense than linear. And going back to the roots, the game isn’t a stranger to open world design. Just my opinion.

I dream bigger than 5 million. =)

I want to see ways it can get to 20 million.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

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Jumpin said:
AngryLittleAlchemist said:

Considering OP has consistently used his dislike of Prime in the past to suggest all sorts of things, nah, this is real. 

And its just as terrible as it sounds. 

Also, to suggest Animal Crossing has improvisational gameplay is a big stretch. 

This thread isn’t for people who get annoyed about any change from the Prime formula. It’s a discussion about how a Metroid game could reach a much wider appeal than what’s been done so far. A Prime style game doesn’t have wide appeal. A game of that style isn’t going to achieve 20m+ any more than an Ocarina of Time style Zelda was going to achieve Breath of the Wild’s inevitable 30-50 million range.

Honestly that response makes me more lean towards the "this is satire camp".



mZuzek said:
ARamdomGamer said:

4. No

I don't agree with 4 either, but it did make me think that it would be nice if, whenever you returned to your ship, you could go inside and maybe do a couple things in there. Doesn't need to be in-engine, just menus would be fine, but making the ship feel more like a safe haven could be really cool if the game's world was oppressive like it should be in a Metroid game.

Maybe even make it like in the old 2D games where standard save points don't refill your energy, so going back to the ship feels that much more impactful. Though if it was like this, it'd probably be a good idea to have several points where you can call your ship like in Prime 3.

Jumpin said:

I’ve never played Metroid Prime 2 or Other M, so I can’t comment, other than that I’ve read the big problem with Other M was Samus’s characterization.

The big problem with Other M was everything.

I admit point 4 was a bit of a “Hmm, and how about” type thing. I just thought it would be a nice touch. Also, something players could share with each other over social media for the viral marketing element. A great number of players like to personalize stuff, and have their own corner of the world. And speaking personally, it’s something I’d like to do in a Metroid game.

Also, I like your idea of having some kind of home/haven to contrast against the ominous/oppressive environment outside - which is a lot how the first Metroid felt. It was an early example of a game that was capable of inspiring tension. Even with the cheap save-state stuff I was doing (which I did to avoid the 20+ minute punishment of health-box gather purgatory).



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

The_Liquid_Laser said:

Jumpin makes some good points.  What made Breath of the Wild so successful is that it actually got back to the roots of the first game in philosophy.  The first Zelda was an open world game about exploration.  BotW took this philosophy but applied it to a modern looking 3D game.  One thing that really showed this was the right move was the fact that Zelda 1 was actually the most successful Zelda game before BotW (in relative terms).  If you look at only Japan + NA sales numbers and adjust for population Zelda 1 outsold every game before BotW.

It turns out that Metroid 1 was also the most successful Metroid game going by that same standard.  The real thing to ask is what was the underlying philosophy of Metroid 1?  Then apply it to a modern 3D Metroid.

1) Make the game open world - It was possible to explore most of Metroid very early on.  Later Metroid games threw up obvious hard gateways too frequently.  Metroid 1 let the player explore a large area and the "gateways" that later opened up were not always so obvious.

2) Make the game claustrophobic - Instead of a huge sprawling world like BotW, make Metroid a more modestly sized space to explore, but then you have to keep retreading the same areas to find secrets.  If you've played Dark Souls 1, I am thinking of a level design more like the main castle area.  So many parts of the game come back to and connect to this area.  However in this Metroid game I wouldn't make these hard barriers so much as secret barriers that can be bypassed through a combination of exploration and sometimes a key power up.  

3) Make the game a horror game in space - This is the most important thing to get right.  The first Metroid game was based on the first Alien movie.  A lot of elements that were put into the original game were meant to be unnerving to the player to give a kind of horror movie feeling.  Over time these elements have been diluted or lost.  Here is what I'd suggest to put this back:
A) Make the game T rated or M rated.  If Nintendo can scare people with a T rating that's ideal, but if not then bring on the M rating.  If nothing else, the game would get a lot of buzz simply because Nintendo made one of their classic franchises M rated.
B) Make the game hard. Original Metroid was the hardest first party game on the NES.  A challenging and deadly game would add to the horror feeling.  The metroid in the game should be at least as challenging as the guardians in BotW and ideally more challenging.  Essentially, they should be making something like a Dark Souls game in space.  The constant threat of death adds to the horror feeling.
C) Make the setting a high tech ghost town.  The player should be exploring some type of settlement where every person was killed by Metroid.  The more advanced the human civilization is the better.  The metroid need to have killed a group of people that are seemingly unkillable.
D) Mess with the player's head. I've heard people say that Metroid is supposed to give the player a feeling of isolation.  This is true, but it's just one aspect.  Metroid is supposed to be unnerving, and the isolation is part of that.  Have aliens sneak up on the player.  Have the lights go out suddenly.  Have the floor drop unexpectedly.  Lead the player to an impregnable safe spot and then show a bunch of dead bodies.  Have Mother Brain lead the player into a trap.  Have the player keep discovering things that are the opposite of what they expect.  Put the player in a zone where they get lost.  Keep the player feeling like they are on edge.
E) Make resources limited. I think they should take a cue from Resident Evil 1 here.  Limited resources make the game more intense.  The original game made you manually recharge your energy tanks and missiles by grinding through enemies.  I wouldn't go that far anymore, but it did add to the feeling of scarcity which made the game scarier and more challenging.  Instead I would have one key recharge spot and that's it.  The further you get from this key spot the more likely you are to run out of resources.

I have one more thing which is more a matter of personal preference:
4) Make the game a third person shooter - I personally hate FPS games.  The biggest reason is that I feel the controls in all FPS games are clunky (even Mirror's Edge).  A lot of the power ups in Metroid improve your movement capabilities, and I think this would work better in third person.

That’s a very good point about relative franchise success. It’s also worth noting that Metroid and Zelda were relative unknowns at the time of their release, and there weren’t really many other games like them. Mario and Donkey Kong were the mammoth IPs in the early NES.

Anyway, most of the point below I’m relating to my personal experiences - so apologies in advance for all the anecdotes.

1. Agreed.

2. I like this point too, and really like the point about the locks on the critical path. Speaking from my personal experience: part of the “find the key to move forward” stuff - whether it be a key, switch, or special item, is one of the things I found off putting about the more modern pre-BotW Zelda and Metroid. Not that I’m against finding keys, switches, or items; only if they place a roadblock on the game’s critical path. So, while the original Metroid, Zelda 1, and BotW do have plenty of gates and such, it doesn’t prevent the player from going where they want and doing most of the enjoyable stuff in the game. While I did go to guides for secrets in the past, from Ocarina of Time onward I found myself going to a guide so I could continue playing the game. I did like Ocarina of Time in the past, but I wasn’t fond of this aspect.

3. I very much agree with the horror theme, and I think the idea of an M-rating might help more than hurt given that Nintendo’s Switch fans include a large majority of grown up people from the past generations.

I also like the idea of a hard game, but maybe not so punishing :D - the challenge of Metroid 1 was one of its big appeals to me, what I didn’t like was that there was a small number of energy-refill moments (was it two?) in the game, otherwise it was a mandatory 20 minutes of repetitious energy tank hunting purgatory (And I’m being generous here, I timed it once in my late playthrough, and it went over half an hour). Maybe a return to the main ship for supply replenishment. This scarcity of supplies element was also present in Breath of the Wild in the earlier parts of the game.

4. And very much agree with this. Third person has a wider appeal. I can’t speak much about FPS games as I’ve barely touched the genre since the N64. I have played and enjoyed a lot of third person shooting games, though. And the clunky controls of the first Metroid Prime game, even with the Wii remote improvements, didn’t match how much fun the controls of games like Scarface and Resident Evil 4 were on Wii (imo). In my opinion, the third person experience simply lends itself more to a more tense gameplay experience. It’s easier to care about the character and what’s going on. But, again, limited experience with FPSs on my part. Metroid Prime 1 is probably the one I played most post-N64.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

I like your points and I agree they would bolster sales. I don’t have faith that Nintendo will do anything for the franchise. It’s the creation of Gunpei yokoi. Myamoto pushed him out and wants glory for only his own games.



heavenmercenary01 said:

Man, the franchise is unable to cross the 3Million mark and you're aiming at 20M all for a sudden?

The latest Animal Crossing has sold the equivalent sales of all prior Animal Crossing games combined.

Stranger things have happened.

Jumpin said:
Mar1217 said:

First, unless Nintendo advertise the game to hell and back like Microsoft would do with Halo, change most of the corners points of what a Metroidvania type game is to fit modern sensibilities and trends (NOT EVERY GAME NEEDS TO BE OPEN WORLD JESUS !) rendering the experience worse in some obvious aspects than it's predecessor .... a big maybe.

5M would be a better bet as of now while maintaining most of it's current gameplay aspects.

I agree that not every game needs to be open world. But I think it makes a lot of sense for the Metroid franchise. More sense than linear. And going back to the roots, the game isn’t a stranger to open world design. Just my opinion.

I dream bigger than 5 million. =)

I want to see ways it can get to 20 million.

Super Metroid is one of my favorite games of all time, I actually complete it once a year within a span of a couple hours... The atmosphere of being stuck underground in a network of tunnels having to problem solve is actually one of it's key atmospheric strengths in my opinion.
I think the craze to make everything "open world" is wearing a bit thin, it shouldn't be the default approach to game design.

It's why Ori and the Will of the wisps is a really great game, because it takes that same concept.

In saying that... I would be extremely happy for just another 2D metroid to be honest.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--