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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Sega nomad was Nintendo Switch in the 90's

hinch said:
Doctor_MG said:

Do your phone and tablet increase clock speeds when docked in order to provide increased resolutions? Anyway, the phone and tablet argument are ridiculous because they aren't even dedicated gaming consoles. 

The Switch's entire design was based upon it being both. The hardware is mobile hardware because that is the only way to make it both (The PS4 and Xbox One APU's draw too much power to become as portable as the Switch). You're suggesting mobile hardware = a portable game console, but this couldn't be further from the truth (especially when the PS4 and Xbox One consoles are based on laptop chipsets, yet they clearly are not portable consoles). 

The variant point is ridiculous. Is the Vita a home console because of the PS Vita TV? Does the GBA player make the GBA a home console? Heck, if they made a dock only Switch unit would your point become moot? I mean, your last sentence makes it pretty clear that the dockable incentive is driving purchases, meaning people are using the console for more than just portable gaming (there was some statistic out there that showed docked and portable play was almost equal amongst players). 

This isn't even taking into account that Nintendo themselves stated that they consider the Switch to be a home console first and foremost (which you can see from their software lineup). All in all, I just disagree with you. 

He's not wrong though. Switch is primerally a portable device that has ability to be docked. And repeating what Pemalite said.. all the technology in the console derives from mobile; from the SOC to the other components. The system is designed to be portable but has the advantage of displaying on an external display as it comes complete package; dock, cables and other accessories (Joycons).

I mean what do you call a laptop, a hybrid desktop? Nope its a portable PC.

GamingRabbit said:

No, you're getting something wrong.

The question whether switch is a hybrid or not is a hardware question and the clock speeds are entirely software based.

Nintendo could very well remove all limitations tomorrow and the system would still work as intended.

You could argue about the clocks if the switch would actually overclock to a point the internal fan is not enough anymore

and additional cooling - provided by the dock - would be necessary to prevent it from breaking down, but thats not the case.

There is a clear cut difference between portables, hybrids and home consoles and switch is not, and will never be a hybrid if Nintendo continues

the existing design.

The change in cspeed is no different than configuring your laptop to have max brightness when connected to a power source and

lower brightness when running on battery.

Just like how a laptop/smartphone/etc. dont become a tower pc just because you pluged a power adapter, ethernet or hdmi cable in,

the switch doesnt become a home console.

Also portables are allowed to use external displaying units without changing their definition, just like how stationary systems wont change theirs if they use

integrated screens. (Arcademachines, non-gaming machines like switches, old PCs, etc.)

I think both of you are looking for something that simply cannot exist in an effort to dissuade others from accepting the hybrid monicker. Unless there is a huge revolutionary breakthrough in technology, there will not ever be a gaming console that has either separate hardware when docked or a separate cooling system. It simply isn't feasible. Doing so would effectively mean the dock is its own system (and may as well be played separately) as putting hardware in the dock just to connect to the portable unit would cause severe latency issues (due to it being away from the motherboard). Don't even get me started on the functionality of hooking up a new cooling system just for docked play...

Does the technology derive from mobile hardware? Absolutely, but that's a means to an end, not the whole story. Again, you would not be able to include stationary hardware in a portable unit with both a massive product and a massive battery (or short battery life). 

Also, I would absolutely suggest that a laptop has a more hybrid like design, and if tablets/smartphones had been created before laptops we would likely be suggesting they are hybrid units. The reason we dont is because it didn't happen chronologically, not because it wouldn't fit the definition. 

This doesn't even include other hybrid features such as the joycons disconnecting and reattaching as part of the design, games being made for solely portable or docked play, and it's relatively large design (in comparison to almost every other portable made in the last 30 years).



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Doctor_MG said:

I think both of you are looking for something that simply cannot exist in an effort to dissuade others from accepting the hybrid monicker. Unless there is a huge revolutionary breakthrough in technology, there will not ever be a gaming console that has either separate hardware when docked or a separate cooling system. It simply isn't feasible. Doing so would effectively mean the dock is its own system (and may as well be played separately) as putting hardware in the dock just to connect to the portable unit would cause severe latency issues (due to it being away from the motherboard). Don't even get me started on the functionality of hooking up a new cooling system just for docked play...

Does the technology derive from mobile hardware? Absolutely, but that's a means to an end, not the whole story. Again, you would not be able to include stationary hardware in a portable unit with both a massive product and a massive battery (or short battery life). 

You start to get it.

portables and stationary systems are almostmutually exclusive to each other.

stationary = not portable

portable = not stationary

You can construct a hybrid system but you would have to do it on purpose.

You can use a main unit, which functions as the portable unit and can be used on its own.

And then you have a dock with additional hardware (cpu, gpu, ram, etc.) which the portable unit connects to.

To make that setup a hybrid system, you would have to let the main unit handle the OS stuff, game data and such but the hardware inside the dock does

the calculating. Best case would be if the hardware from the main unit could do stuff aswell like decompressing assets etc.

That would however require a very fast connection between dock and portable unit.

Doctor_MG said:

This doesn't even include other hybrid features such as the joycons disconnecting and reattaching as part of the design, games being made for solely portable or docked play, and it's relatively large design (in comparison to almost every other portable made in the last 30 years).

The joycons are just a design decision, they dont have any impact on the definition.

If having detachable controllers means something becomes stationary, then not detachable controllers would mean something

does not become stationairy. Does that mean that arcade machines are handheld hybrids?

Doctor_MG said:

Also, I would absolutely suggest that a laptop has a more hybrid like design, and if tablets/smartphones had been created before laptops we would likely be suggesting they are hybrid units. The reason we dont is because it didn't happen chronologically, not because it wouldn't fit the definition. 

The key point is, that portable devices were never meant to prevent the stationary use.

The point was to be independent from that context.

Every portable device is allowed to have features which make it possible to be used like a stationary, but they dont have to offer them.

Last edited by GamingRabbit - on 19 March 2021

Nintendo Switch:

... announced as a Home Console

... advertised as a Hybrid

... delivered as a Portable

I have my Switch connected to my home theater just like my ps4. They both function identically. It is a home console for me. For others, it is portable... e.g. it is a hybrid.  

It really is that simple.



Chrkeller said:

I have my Switch connected to my home theater just like my ps4. They both function identically. It is a home console for me. For others, it is portable... e.g. it is a hybrid.  

It really is that simple.

Cannot change a stubborn mind, but by that logic... earth is flat, because it looks like that to me and the sun circles around us not the other way around,

because in the morning it goes up, and down in the evening and I am standing here, not moving.



Nintendo Switch:

... announced as a Home Console

... advertised as a Hybrid

... delivered as a Portable

GamingRabbit said:

Cannot change a stubborn mind, but by that logic... earth is flat, because it looks like that to me and the sun circles around us not the other way around,

because in the morning it goes up, and down in the evening and I am standing here, not moving.

The glass is half full.

No the glass is half empty.

You're stubborn if you think it's half full, your eyes are seeing it wrong, the science says it's half empty and you can't argue with the science.



...to avoid getting banned for inactivity, I may have to resort to comments that are of a lower overall quality and or beneath my moral standards.

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GamingRabbit said:
Chrkeller said:

I have my Switch connected to my home theater just like my ps4. They both function identically. It is a home console for me. For others, it is portable... e.g. it is a hybrid.  

It really is that simple.

Cannot change a stubborn mind, but by that logic... earth is flat, because it looks like that to me and the sun circles around us not the other way around,

because in the morning it goes up, and down in the evening and I am standing here, not moving.

Agreed, stubborn minds can't be changed.

Also, false equivalency.  We know factually the earth isn't flat.  In comparison the Switch operates and functions identically to a home console for millions of people.  

I could super glue my Switch to the dock and you know what it changes for me?  Nothing.  Absolutely nothing.  

And to get that home console experience, what extras did I have to buy?  What modification did I have to do?  None and none.  It came out of the box functioning as a home console for those who wanted that experience.  For those who want a portable experience, functions that way out of the box.  Gee, sounds like a hybrid doesn't it?



It kind of looks like calling the Nomad a Switch is the same as calling the NES Zapper or Power Glove a Wii. While there are some similarities, there are also a lot of differences and technological hold-ups. I don't think anyone was buying the Nomad as a hybrid, but rather a handheld form factor of the Mega Drive - it's kind of like the PSP in that way. The Switch, on the otherhand, is a true hybrid console.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

Bofferbrauer2 said:
Pemalite said:

It's not both.

The Switch is a mobile device first and foremost with the functionality to output it's display.

It is built 100% around mobile hardware, battery, screen, processor, ram, storage... Everything is mobile.
It just has a dock that can pass video onto a seperate display...

* My tablet has a dock that allows me to output to a TV via HDMI to a display. STILL a mobile device and not a hybrid.
* My phone has a dock that allows me to output to a TV via HDMI to a display. STILL a mobile device and not a hybrid.

I even have an Android powered gaming tablet with built in physical controls that also outputs to a display via HDMI... Still a mobile device 100%.

Just because it has a dock does not mean it's not primarily a mobile device.

The fact there are variants which use the *exact* same hardware, the absolute exact, right down to the CPU and GPU type, that are mobile-only, just further reinforces the fact that the Switch is a mobile device, not a fixed home console.

The Switch is an absolutely fantastic mobile device, it's actually a really really terrible fixed home-console from a hardware point... But being able to dock is a value added incentive that sadly not everyone gets thanks to the Switch Lite... Well. Existing.

I would put that under false equivalency.

After all, even though you can connect them to the TV, they don't change their behavior (as in, clocking higher or lower depending on if they are docked or not) and more importantly, you don't change the input device. The Switch changes how you play and use it depending on being docked or not, but that's not true for your Tablet or phone.

My Phone and Tablets operate under dynamic frequency, so whenever connected to mains power (I.E. Docked) the SoC's will operate at a higher frequency if thermal headroom allows for it.

The Switch doesn't "Change" how you play.
The games are for all intents and purposes are the same, they might have slightly better visuals or operate at a slightly higher resolution, but they are the same games with the same defining visual defining feature sets... And will use the same controls. (Joycons which detach.)

Doctor_MG said:

Do your phone and tablet increase clock speeds when docked in order to provide increased resolutions?

Yes.

Doctor_MG said:

Anyway, the phone and tablet argument are ridiculous because they aren't even dedicated gaming consoles. 

False.
This is the tablet.


And unlike the Switch actually has a 1080P display.

Doctor_MG said:

The Switch's entire design was based upon it being both. The hardware is mobile hardware because that is the only way to make it both (The PS4 and Xbox One APU's draw too much power to become as portable as the Switch).

False. The Switch is designed as a mobile device first and foremost, otherwise you would start making compromises to battery life, weight, size and portability if you started on the opposite side.

Doctor_MG said:

You're suggesting mobile hardware = a portable game console, but this couldn't be further from the truth (especially when the PS4 and Xbox One consoles are based on laptop chipsets, yet they clearly are not portable consoles). 

Correct. Mobile hardware... Aka. Mobile power optimized SoC, mobile DRAM, mobile power optimized EMMC storage, mobile form factor and building it around features to use it in mobile aka.... Battery and screen. -Is what makes it primarily a mobile device.
In short, Nintendo didn't compromise mobility for it's mobile capabilities, but it did compromise it's fixed-home console capabilities because of it... And not the other way around.


The Playstation 4 and Xbox One weren't designed around mobile hardware and are for all intents and purposes fixed home consoles...
The Chipsets are NOT laptop chipsets, the CPU block in the Playstation 4 and Xbox One is Jaguar which is an evolutionary step from Brazos which is certainly designed for mobile applications (Netbooks) but also fixed devices like Nettops and industrial machines and so forth.

But you are forgetting that these are not off-the-shelf chips like the Switch's mobile Tegra chip... They are semi-custom.

Sony and Microsoft paired them up with desktop-DRAM Aka. DDR3/GDDR5 which isn't mobile/power optimized... And then they spent a few billion transistors on the graphics cores, which are definitely not mobile/power optimized like the Switch... Meaning they had power consumption north of 100W.

The Xbox One and Playstation 4 also didn't feature built in batteries, displays and were large and chunky so couldn't be used in the hand because of thermal and size of components constraints. (Desktop stuff tends to be bulky.)

Doctor_MG said:

The variant point is ridiculous. Is the Vita a home console because of the PS Vita TV?

The Vita TV is a fixed home console as it doesn't include a display and battery for you to take it portably and has a form factor to match. (Boxy and not ergonomic.)
The fact it's limited to the Vita's average game library is more or less a con, rather than a pro.

The regular Vita is a mobile gaming device as it's built around mobile centric features.

Doctor_MG said:

Does the GBA player make the GBA a home console?

No. It makes the GBA player a home fixed console.
The GBA is still a mobile console.

It's all in the form factor and hardware.

Doctor_MG said:

Heck, if they made a dock only Switch unit would your point become moot?

If they made a dock-only switch it would still be a mobile device as that is what it's primarily designed around.

But if they made a Switch-TV which ditched the mobile features like battery and display, mobile ergonomics, then it would be a fixed-home console.

Doctor_MG said:

I mean, your last sentence makes it pretty clear that the dockable incentive is driving purchases, meaning people are using the console for more than just portable gaming (there was some statistic out there that showed docked and portable play was almost equal amongst players). 

Just because you can run it off a TV doesn't mean you can't use it like a fixed device, shit. I do... I never use my Switch in portable mode.

But that doesn't stop it from being a mobile device first and foremost.


Doctor_MG said:

This isn't even taking into account that Nintendo themselves stated that they consider the Switch to be a home console first and foremost (which you can see from their software lineup). All in all, I just disagree with you. 

Companies say all sorts of silly things, when they don't mean it. I remember when Microsoft said they weren't going to remaster Halo 2... And look what happened.
I bet there are other examples where Nintendo has made statements then done the complete opposite, not all cogs in the wheels go in the same direction.

And I would actually put forth this question to you... What would happen to the Switch if you took a hammer to the dock? Absolutely nothing. It will still function as *intended* with the loss of a feature. (Outputting to a display.)

I also disagree with you and have outlined my arguments on why.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

@Pemalite so what is the WiiU tablet? Is that a short range mobile device? Seems kind of like there is no such thing as a hybrid in your mind and that using hybrid is just marketing speak.

A hybrid is a mixture of two different things, resulting in something that has a little bit of both — like the rare zedonk, a hybrid of a donkey and a zebra.



Chrkeller said:

I have my Switch connected to my home theater just like my ps4. They both function identically. It is a home console for me. For others, it is portable... e.g. it is a hybrid.  

It really is that simple.

So PSP Go is a hybrid when someone connects it to his home theater and plays games with a DualShock 3?

A tablet or smartphone is a hybrid if someone connects it to his home theater and plays with wireless gamepads?