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Forums - Politics - Gina Carano - Disney fired her, what does that solve?

Hiku said:

I can't speak for everyone else, but when I think fascist, nazis are neither the first nor last that come to mind. Let alone the holocaust specifically.
Not that they aren't the most notable example. I think they certainly are. But because I recognize that there are more present and relevant examples of this ideology. And only focusing on Nazi Germany suggests that this lived and died with Nazi Germany, which isn't the case.

However, the difference here is that she specifically referenced jews getting chased down in the streets.

I don't have a problem with the idea that not all viewpoints are equal, or worth expressing.
They can do so, but I shouldn't have to be forced to associate with it.

Regarding Israel, you can be for the well being of Jewish people, while disagreeing with how their government acts. Just like you can disagree with Trump while being concerned for your fellow Americans.
Here's a comment on this from a friend of mine who is jewish, and why it's not a contradiction:



Personally, I don't know enough about the Israel situation to have an informed opinion.

The "I'm not a Zionist" part shows your friend to be in the fringe minority of Jewish opinion, as while most Jewish Americans, for example, are critical of Israeli state policy (and overwhelmingly voted for Joe Biden last November, incidentally), 80% nonetheless describe themselves as fundamentally "pro-Israel". Zionism of one form or another, be it conservative or liberal-minded, is all but ubiquitous to Jewish people both here and around the world. Nearly all believe that Jewish people need a nation of their own precisely because of the long, sad history of persecution that Jewish people have faced.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 13 February 2021

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Hiku said:
Majora said:

I haven’t called everything far-left. I’ve pointed out that from reading this thread, it has become clear to me that VGC is overwhelmingly far-left. Before you even begin, I point out when I see far-right as well. The most amusing thing about both extremes is that neither can see when they are on those extremes. I certainly don’t think all left or right views are “far”, but many I’ve seen here, are. They are extreme views. 

I did chime in as you put it, but I didn’t chime in about the OP - just made a comment about what I was observing reading the thread. And as I stated originally, I found this interesting.

I'm saying that I see comments like this a lot, and you're not the first one even in this thread to refer to this as far-left or extreme-left.
So if that's what this is, then what is let's say Marxism? Or someone physically attacking fascists? Super Ultra Hyper Omega Left?

What would make these opinions you see here just 'Left' instead of 'extreme/far-left'?

Because when you chime in, it shouldn't just be to do drive-by insults. Critique includes offering suggestions and solutions.
So that's why I asked you what you think a solution to the issue would be.

I didn’t insult anyone or use an insult. Also, I’m not becoming emotional, just stating my opinion, and in no way being rude or insulting. I haven’t given a critique, and also - people are allowed to express an opinion without offering suggestions and solutions. I’m sorry if that concept is uncomfortable to you, but it’s absolutely reasonable and acceptable to state an opinion without offering suggestions and solutions. But, again, I didn’t offer a critique - I made an observation. 

Generally speaking, I don’t believe anyone who is simply left or right would encourage anyone being cancelled, and I think that they would be able to have civil discussions and utilise nuance, context and critical thinking to formulate ideas and put them across. Anytime I see a statement such as “well, so-and-so is a transphobe therefore cancel” the person has decided so-and-so is a transphobe, reasonably or not, and will not entertain any notion of debate or discussion. It is simply “I feel/ think, therefore”. It’s the wrong way of doing things. It creates division and further dissects society into ever smaller crumbs. We’re getting to the point where I think society is starting to argue over crumbs, and I’m not sure what will be argued about next. People who in the past would have absolutely been considered left wing are now labelled far-right because they don’t hold so-called “progressive” views (in my own personal view, these should be called regressive but hey ho). Many comments in this thread use hyperbolic and emotive language to explain why it’s right this person should be cancelled, and thus cannot be simply left wing. Good arguments can stand up on their own and don’t need to be cancelled/silenced, and when I see people becoming very irate and typically always using the same sort of language and pejoratives to smear people with any slight deviance of opinion, I know I am dealing with people who are very far of left. If you disagree, that is of course your right, but this is my opinion and I stand by this. 



Allegedly making a Holocaust comparison by calling someone a fascist is just wrong.

Fascism was introduced by Mussolini. Hitler just copied many parts of it.
Mussolini never planned to kill jews. In fact, he had a jewish mistress and repeatedly spoke out against the holocaust.

"In 1932, Mussolini during a conversation with Emil Ludwig described antisemitism as a "German vice" and stated that "There was 'no Jewish Question' in Italy and could not be one in a country with a healthy system of government." On several occasions, Mussolini spoke positively about Jews and the Zionist movement, although Fascism remained suspicious of Zionism after the Fascist Party gained power. In 1934, Mussolini supported the establishment of the Betar Naval Academy in Civitavecchia to train Zionist cadets under the direction of Ze'ev Jabotinsky, arguing that a Jewish state would be in Italy's interest.[214] Until 1938 Mussolini had denied any antisemitism within the Fascist Party."

"Mussolini and the Italian Army in occupied regions openly opposed German efforts to deport Italian Jews to Nazi concentration camps"

"Antisemitism was unpopular within the Fascist party; once when a Fascist scholar protested to Mussolini about the treatment of his Jewish friends, Mussolini is reported to have said "I agree with you entirely. I don't believe a bit in the stupid anti-Semitic theory. I am carrying out my policy entirely for political reasons." Hitler felt disappointed with Mussolini's lack of antisemitism."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini#Mussolini's_views_on_antisemitism_and_race



Barozi said:

Allegedly making a Holocaust comparison by calling someone a fascist is just wrong.

Fascism was introduced by Mussolini. Hitler just copied many parts of it.
Mussolini never planned to kill jews. In fact, he had a jewish mistress and repeatedly spoke out against the holocaust.

"In 1932, Mussolini during a conversation with Emil Ludwig described antisemitism as a "German vice" and stated that "There was 'no Jewish Question' in Italy and could not be one in a country with a healthy system of government." On several occasions, Mussolini spoke positively about Jews and the Zionist movement, although Fascism remained suspicious of Zionism after the Fascist Party gained power. In 1934, Mussolini supported the establishment of the Betar Naval Academy in Civitavecchia to train Zionist cadets under the direction of Ze'ev Jabotinsky, arguing that a Jewish state would be in Italy's interest.[214] Until 1938 Mussolini had denied any antisemitism within the Fascist Party."

"Mussolini and the Italian Army in occupied regions openly opposed German efforts to deport Italian Jews to Nazi concentration camps"

"Antisemitism was unpopular within the Fascist party; once when a Fascist scholar protested to Mussolini about the treatment of his Jewish friends, Mussolini is reported to have said "I agree with you entirely. I don't believe a bit in the stupid anti-Semitic theory. I am carrying out my policy entirely for political reasons." Hitler felt disappointed with Mussolini's lack of antisemitism."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini#Mussolini's_views_on_antisemitism_and_race

Was fascism really introduced in Italy? I believe the term was, but totalitarianism seems to predate 1934 by far. Is there some distinction between fascism and totalitarianism I'm missing?

Last edited by JWeinCom - on 14 February 2021

shikamaru317 said:

Gina Carano was one of the most common ones I've seen over the course of 2020 and 2021 so far, but some others I've noticed the left trying to cancel just in the last year or so are Chris Pratt, JK Rowling, Tim Allen, Kirstie Alley, Scott Adams, Jon Voight, and Bruce Willis, and that is only a partial list.

I always find it funny when people complain that the left tried to "cancel" JK Rowling when the Religious Right has been trying to "cancel" her and her books for decades.



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sundin13 said:

shikamaru317 said:

Gina Carano was one of the most common ones I've seen over the course of 2020 and 2021 so far, but some others I've noticed the left trying to cancel just in the last year or so are Chris Pratt, JK Rowling, Tim Allen, Kirstie Alley, Scott Adams, Jon Voight, and Bruce Willis, and that is only a partial list.

I always find it funny when people complain that the left tried to "cancel" JK Rowling when the Religious Right has been trying to "cancel" her and her books for decades.

But, when the right did it, they didn't use hashtags. Things that the older generation did all the time, are not ok when younger people do it with new technology. That's the way its always been.



sundin13 said:

shikamaru317 said:

Gina Carano was one of the most common ones I've seen over the course of 2020 and 2021 so far, but some others I've noticed the left trying to cancel just in the last year or so are Chris Pratt, JK Rowling, Tim Allen, Kirstie Alley, Scott Adams, Jon Voight, and Bruce Willis, and that is only a partial list.

I always find it funny when people complain that the left tried to "cancel" JK Rowling when the Religious Right has been trying to "cancel" her and her books for decades.

What do you find “funny” about it? Genuine question, because either you’re being disingenuous or you honestly don’t see why this would inspire a lot of attention. No, no, actually I’m just going to explain it. 

This particular “cancellation” has garnered so much attention precisely because JK Rowling was very much on the far left, SJW, truth-defying gender-bending side of politics UNTIL she had a view that went against the doctrinal left - after which she was ostracised and tossed aside by the very side she had championed and fought for for many years. People aren’t complaining that she’s been cancelled - it’s just a complete car crash to see the left begin to eat itself, as many political and social commentators bet that it would. There aren’t complaints, just absolute morbid fascination to watch it happen. JK herself was happy to silence and call to boycott those who’s views she opposed, yet the same thing happened to her regardless. You see, it is inevitable the extreme left will eat itself sooner rather than later because as the realms of offence grow exponentially wider and the list of acceptable opinions and thoughts grows ever smaller, there is less and less room to manoeuvre. Things that today are inoffensive, even banal, can become capital offence tomorrow and mean that you are to be unpersoned. 

TL:dr - both the left and right calling for cancellations is ridiculous, but the reason JK is so infamous in this regard now is she has been cancelled by her own. 



Hiku said:
Majora said:

I didn’t insult anyone or use an insult. Also, I’m not becoming emotional, just stating my opinion, and in no way being rude or insulting. I haven’t given a critique, and also - people are allowed to express an opinion without offering suggestions and solutions. I’m sorry if that concept is uncomfortable to you, but it’s absolutely reasonable and acceptable to state an opinion without offering suggestions and solutions. But, again, I didn’t offer a critique - I made an observation. 

I'm sure just pointing out that you think people here fall under a label that's also applied to actual communists or violent mobs, without explaining why, wasn't meant to ruffle any feathers.

I know you didn't give critique. I was helping you along there, because while you may think that's reasonable to do, we have rules that ask people to explain their positions, and not just state them.

  1. Do not say that item A sucks, or that item B is better than item C. Give reasons why, and provide evidence (articles, screenshots, technical information, even opinion etc.).
  2. Explain and justify your opinions. If you have nothing reasonable and/or relevant to add to a topic, then don't post at all.


I’m sorry if that concept is uncomfortable to you.

Majora said:

Generally speaking, I don’t believe anyone who is simply left or right would encourage anyone being cancelled, and I think that they would be able to have civil discussions and utilise nuance, context and critical thinking to formulate ideas and put them across. Anytime I see a statement such as “well, so-and-so is a transphobe therefore cancel” the person has decided so-and-so is a transphobe, reasonably or not, and will not entertain any notion of debate or discussion. It is simply “I feel/ think, therefore”. It’s the wrong way of doing things. It creates division and further dissects society into ever smaller crumbs. We’re getting to the point where I think society is starting to argue over crumbs, and I’m not sure what will be argued about next. People who in the past would have absolutely been considered left wing are now labelled far-right because they don’t hold so-called “progressive” views (in my own personal view, these should be called regressive but hey ho). Many comments in this thread use hyperbolic and emotive language to explain why it’s right this person should be cancelled, and thus cannot be simply left wing. Good arguments can stand up on their own and don’t need to be cancelled/silenced, and when I see people becoming very irate and typically always using the same sort of language and pejoratives to smear people with any slight deviance of opinion, I know I am dealing with people who are very far of left. If you disagree, that is of course your right, but this is my opinion and I stand by this. 

I only recall people saying that Disney, any private company, have a right to fire employees that they do not want to be associated with, and some also agreed that it was a stupid analogy of her to make, etc.

And you're saying this is extreme, but what is the alternative?
That they are forced to keep an employee they don't want to associate with? And who would enforce this?

That would be extreme, imo.
Firing people you don't want representing your company is standard imo, happens all the time, and often not for reasons related to



I think it’s clear that you become quite personal and rude when you’re dealing with someone you disagree with, so I’ll politely avoid conversation with you moving forward. It’s not that I have nothing to say, but I don’t wish to communicate with a person who isn’t able to discuss without becoming emotional. I also don’t wish to attempt a discussion with a person who ignores what I actually say and only picks up on words or phrases they wish to use to construct a “so what you’re saying” argument. I’ve stated all my points bluntly and simply. You become sarcastic and patronising. If you want examples of that per your rules which I regrettably broke without intention, I can post them, but if I may, I think I would prefer not to continue any further discourse with you. 



shikamaru317 said:
sundin13 said:

I always find it funny when people complain that the left tried to "cancel" JK Rowling when the Religious Right has been trying to "cancel" her and her books for decades.

It's true that she was once a target of the right, when her Harry Potter books first started releasing in the US there were many on the right who wanted them banned for promoting witchcraft and demon worship. I know it all too well, my parents got a bit too swept up in that hysteria themselves and I wasn't allowed to read the first few books or watch the first few movies, it wasn't until later that they opened up and let me watch and read the books, and later they watched the movies themselves and enjoyed them. 

But while JK was once the target of the right, that really hasn't been the case in quite awhile. Probably 95% of her criticism the last few years has been from fellow left wingers, mad at her because she is a TERF, a feminist who believes that trans rights shouldn't get in the way of the rights of those who were born female, that those who were born male shouldn't be allowed to compete on women's sports teams as they have an unfair advantage, for instance. The left has absolutely raked Jo over the coals for her stance on feminism here recently, I've seen different attempts to cancel her trending at least 5 times in the last year on Twitter. 

In 2019 (the most recent data available), the Harry Potter series was the ninth most challenged book/series in the USA, with the reason being primarily the use of witchcraft, spells and curses. The most high profile example was a Catholic school in Tennessee banning Harry potter for featuring "actual curses". 

“These books present magic as both good and evil, which is not true, but in fact a clever deception,” he wrote. “The curses and spells used in the books are actual curses and spells; which when read by a human being risk conjuring evil spirits into the presence of the person reading the text.”

Reehil went on to write in the email that he consulted several exorcists in the U.S. and Rome who recommended the books’ removal, the Tennessean reported.

Yes, people criticized her on Twitter, but as much as people like to talk about "cancellation", JK Rowling is still releasing books and making millions of dollars. I don't know, do we really want to make a martyr out of everyone who said something stupid and was criticized or faced other consequences for it?

Personally, I find it somewhat interesting that individuals on the right (not you specifically. I just got here and I have not read the whole thread so I don't know your position in detail) really like talking about criticism of celebrities on Twitter as big bad cancel culture, while largely ignoring broader, more institutional and often more effective means of cancellation like the banning of books. If you look at the ALA's list of the top challenged books of 2019 (the same list cited above), 8/10 of them received these formal cancellation requests (which are at times granted), largely over LGBTQ content. While the means of "cancellation" is different among the right it would be ignorant to deny it's existence based on the fact that it isn't as visible on Twitter. 



sundin13 said:

shikamaru317 said:

Gina Carano was one of the most common ones I've seen over the course of 2020 and 2021 so far, but some others I've noticed the left trying to cancel just in the last year or so are Chris Pratt, JK Rowling, Tim Allen, Kirstie Alley, Scott Adams, Jon Voight, and Bruce Willis, and that is only a partial list.

I always find it funny when people complain that the left tried to "cancel" JK Rowling when the Religious Right has been trying to "cancel" her and her books for decades.

Seriously doubt the religious right had the same zeal and was as loud/persistent as the left Twitter mobs crying out against her in recent times. 



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