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Can't really help you, before I got here on VGC, I was on ZeldaUniverse. Now obviously, that's a forum that only deals with the Zelda series, so you'd really need to be into that to be there. I guess it's fine there, and the people were nice enough, but the big problem is that such a specialised forum gets boring. One can only talk about the timeline so many times. Then I came here, and haven't been anywhere else. As far as gaming goes anyway, I was also a member on a Dutch hiking forum, because I like to do that, but those people just weren't very friendly to those not in their special inner circle.



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Verter said:

I think I'll make my little contribution to this topic.

One problem about women representation in games is that this medium was born at the hands of men who didn't have any kind of feminine vision. So, as you said, all that there was for a long time were games made by men for men. But the thing is, that hasn't changed much in the past several decades, and I mean not even now, in spite of all these non-sexualized, female main characters that we're starting to see around more frequently. It's true that we've moved forward, but all this is still nothing more than a work in progress.

For instance (this is just anecdotal experience, but it's what I've got at hand), when I studied to be a game developer 3-4 years ago, there were only around 15-20% girls among all classes. If that proportion was carried over to employment, that means 80-85% of new crunched slaveshappy talents in this industry were boys, so in the end, even if there are more women making games nowadays, it's still far from being something common. Thus, the gaming industry still has a noticeable lack of feminine vision.

And that leads me to my next point: all this female (or black or homosexual, for that matter) representation in any cultural or artistic product, specifically video games in this case, has a double face, because the only or main reason why we see so much exposure in this industry (not only as characters in games, but also as spokespeople of companies, hosts or invitees to events, etc.) is that it means good PR.

So, on one hand, this gives room to a situation that is easily described using a comparison with a guy I met not too long ago: this guy mocked or criticized feminism in private conversations with other men; however, he used inclusive language on all his social media in order to look like a feminist/ally, just because doing that made it easier for him to have talks with girls and eventually get laid. Well, that's exactly what all these companies and organizations do: they make this effort to build a pro-women image only because they want more people to go to bed with them by buying their games, watching their events, etc.

On the other hand, however, this kind of exposure is good even if the reasons behind are not. It's like when the stigma of games being for children or immature men was still strong: at some point, all the big companies started to focus their marketing efforts on reaching a more mature audience first and a more widespread one later. But the only reason why companies did that was because they considered it good for their business, allowing them to cater to a lot more people and subsequently sell a lot more games.

The result of that, however, is that this stigma has almost entirely disappeared by now (there may be still a little in relation to Nintendo, but not to the industry in general), and that's also what could happen in the current situation of women exposure and feminism-friendly games: purely selfish actions that ultimately lead to positive changes (Machiavelli would be happy with this).

And that's also why I wouldn't care much if a black Joel was casted for the upcoming The Last of Us series, or if Zelda was the main character of The Legend of ¿Link?: Breath of the Wild 2, or if Master Chief was confirmed as gay in Halo Infinite. All these decisions would be pure self-interested PR material (and probably bad commercial ones in these particular cases), but all that exposure that they'd give might have a beneficial impact in like ten-twenty years. Until then, however, all this alleged equality in video games is highly artificial.

In any case, what actually matters isn't achieving a certain percentage of representation (50% women playing or making games is not necessarily better than 40 or 60, for instance); having a wide variety of visions and talent when creating games is what really matters. And more female players and therefore female developers coming naturally to this industry can effectively help a lot in that regard.

As an example of that, is there any game which directly addresses the question of feminism and has it as its main topic and focus? Because that would be an interesting game to play if done right, and I don't think there's nothing like that - basically because there's still no one to do it.

Anyway, this is just my take on this. As usual, all this can be wrong and argued. What cannot be argued by any means whatsoever is that I'm way too sleepy, so I'll stop writing here and go to bed.

First of all, sorry it's taken me so long to respond to this! You know how the Texas power grid was knocked out at the start of the week and millions (at one point almost half the state's population) went without electricity -- as in heating and so forth -- in temperatures far below freezing over the course of the week? Well I was affected by that. My house lost power early Monday morning and I only got it back this afternoon (it's Friday), so yeah it's been interesting. I've basically spent as much time at work as possible because it was warmer at the store than at my house, but even the store relied on emergency back-up generators for two days, so there wasn't any heating there either for a good while. Now though the store is being mobbed by people stockpiling stuff again like it's last March; especially water this time though because the water-purifying facilities lost power too, causing the water for half the state to become contaminated. 12 million people even tonight are under local orders to boil water instead of using any running water they may have at home, so people are buying up all the bottled water possible to bathe in and drink of course. It's a disaster. But hey, I hear the same country, same state (NASA is based in Houston, Texas) landed a rover on Mars this week while back here on Earth we froze in the dark because they can't even keep the lights on. Which goes to show you the difference between the efficacy of a federal program and that of relying on private enterprise to solve all our problems like we do in my state because...because...I don't know. I really don't know. As you might have guessed, they've been especially slow to restore power out here in the boonies, as usual. I've been through stuff like this many times before, but this time it's not because I couldn't pay my electric bill.

ANYWAY, as you might well imagine, between no electricity, no mobile phone in that situation, and being mobbed all day at the store for the entire week by panic shoppers, I've been pretty exhausted just trying to survive both physically and psychologically. Video games and online message boards dedicated to them have not only been totally inaccessible to me, but have also been the farthest things from my mind. I literally haven't done anything since I got home from work today but cry and rejoice that I now have heating again and can shower. I've needed time for healing and I'm nowhere near there even now. (Meanwhile my senator vacations out of the country; hard at work raising the issue on the national stage, as might be expected. Why senators even need vacations when they get like a third of the year off anyway while I work 60+ hours a week doing far more productive labor bagging people's groceries and cleaning public toilets and go without basic necessities, I'll never know. Anyhow, way to go re-electing him, Texas! )

...That rant went on longer than expected. Sorry, I needed to vent. You complain at work and they threaten you with termination, so that's not a very practical option. All hail the free enterprise system. We cannot do better. ...SO anyhow, what I've been trying to get at all this time was that that was the reason for the delay. Okay, I think I'm ready to actually respond to what you wrote now. I think.

Well mainly I just wanted to thank you for your comments. I think you're right about your main point: women's perspectives have been largely ignored in games development. I feel that this is owed to a lot of circular logic of men knowing what men like better and therefore making games for men to play and then when women complain of feeling ignored people responding with "Well most gamers are men after all; they make games to satisfy their customers of course!", and so the self-reinforcing cycle of selfishness continues indefinitely. The first step to breaking this vicious cycle methinks is getting more girls and women interested in video games. That's how you increase the number who want to go into everything from professional gaming to games development. The next question is how.

Getting more girls and women interested in gaming is a project to be pursued not for political correctness, but for the benefit of gaming as an art medium, as you say, in that the medium benefits from the presentation of a wide range of stories and perspectives more than from approximate repetition of the same stories and perspectives endlessly, and it's a project that requires overwhelmingly male developers to move out of their comfort zones. And for publishers to let them. And as you also say, that's a work in progress. I guess I'm just optimistic about seeing progress. As we go from a situation where shortly ago the people at Dontnod could only find one publisher that would let them use female protagonists in their game Life is Strange because it was viewed as too much of a commercial risk for neither of them to be male to one of now witnessing The Last of Us Part II winning Game of the Year virtually everywhere, we see volume of women interested in games development slowly creeping up. That in turn will ultimately yield more female game developers and, along with that, more fully honest representations of women in video games themselves. Which in turn are likely to interest even more girls and women in video games, and so on and so on. That's my perspective of it anyway.

In the bolded paragraph, you ask whether "there are any games which directly addresses the question of feminism and has it as its main topic and focus". That's an interesting question! Lots of games I've played include tacit, anecdotal allusions to living in a male-centric culture here and there, but it's quite rare for games to present explicitly feminist themes as the core of their identity. There are definitely some examples though. Lost Wage Rampage comes to mind as a particularly obvious example. (It's a heist game that uses the wage gap as it's narrative justification for that game play.) My favorite game falling into the heavy-on-feminist-perspective category though is definitely the freebie interactive visual novel Butterfly Soup created by Brianna Lei, which is about some Asian-American lesbian high schoolers (and a bi girl) who endeavor to play baseball in 2008, whereupon hijinx ensue. It's the flat-out funniest game I've ever played before. Being a visual novel, it's not heavy on game play, but it is highly enjoyable and one of the best-written games out there. It helps a great deal that the developer is lesbian herself, frankly, to understand the sort of nuances of what that experience can be like. But anyway, sex-specific topics come up in conversation between the girls a lot in a way that feels more organic and natural than it tends to when men create "feminist messages" in games. Where a guy-developed game might include say a "no girls" sign somewhere that female protagonists are like "Well that's bullshit!" about, Butterfly Soup takes the time to do things like flesh out exactly what the prospect of being the only girl on a baseball team feels like to each of them at length, showing why a misogynistically abusive cultural upbringing experienced by one makes it natural for her as part of a general lifestyle of defiance but horribly off-putting to girls more who are more shy or forced into an unhealthy focus on academics for example. The all-female nature of the team eventually formed is important in this connection. The game also explores these experiences through the lens of race in ways that strike one as both accurate and insightful. (For example, if you know anything about the South Korean women's movement, you know that Min is NOT an exaggerated character, and that neither are her experiences!) Romantic love between girls is also a topic explored by the game at good length (it being a romantic comedy, after all). Unlike so many other "yuri" games though, the relationships between the game's characters aren't there to service the male gaze, but rather to flesh out how different sorts of girls respond to discovering they're attracted to other girls; some are ashamed and repressed and struggling to accept themselves because of her background, while another is bold and shameless and still another thinks nothing of it and it all works very well in the service of sheer hilarity. But like I said, it is a freebie visual novel made by one woman. That seems to be the only form in which such themes can be explored with this sort of dedication as yet and it does make one wonder what Brianna Lei might have been able to accomplish with say a real budget and other people to work with. (It's still one of my absolute favorite games.)

Last edited by Jaicee - on 20 February 2021

This thread has long-ass posts with actual content and arguments. I believe I like that. Unfortunately, there are very few gaming forums with as much headroom as in here, this thread and some of the posts contained within will probably be difficult, or even impossible, to start and maintain on most forums. I stopped posting in other forums long ago; shit is just too toxic and monocultural most of the time, in whichever direction.



StuOhQ said:

Sega-16 and Atari Age are pretty awesome if you're into the retro scene. Nintendo Age used to be amazing, but... not so much, anymore.

I've not yet been to any places specifically dedicated to older games. That sounds awesome! I'm not per se a collector, but I have tons of games from the 20th century and still buy more from time to time when I dig up something I missed back in the day that looks interesting. Will have to scope those out!



Jaicee said:

[...]

I started to answer your post, but I'm having some difficulty concentrating (not so) lately. In fact, this is not the first post that I've been unable to finish and had to copy and paste in a document in order not to lose it...

I'll see if I can answer this tomorrow (I'm trying to make some changes in my life, which I hope will start to take effect), but as of now, sorry about this.



I'm mostly a lurker now.

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Mummelmann said:

This thread has long-ass posts with actual content and arguments. I believe I like that. Unfortunately, there are very few gaming forums with as much headroom as in here, this thread and some of the posts contained within will probably be difficult, or even impossible, to start and maintain on most forums. I stopped posting in other forums long ago; shit is just too toxic and monocultural most of the time, in whichever direction.

That's one of the reasons why I made an account here. I'm not really a person who visits forums, but this one has something.



I'm mostly a lurker now.

Verter said:
Jaicee said:

[...]

I started to answer your post, but I'm having some difficulty concentrating (not so) lately. In fact, this is not the first post that I've been unable to finish and had to copy and paste in a document in order not to lose it...

I'll see if I can answer this tomorrow (I'm trying to make some changes in my life, which I hope will start to take effect), but as of now, sorry about this.

No problem, take your time!



There's definitely something special about VGChartz. It's hard to put my finger on but I think it's a combination of good moderation and a relatively small but close-knit community that makes it an especially welcoming and pleasant place to frequent. Trolling isn't tolerated, and the more toxic and extreme people get removed, while our familiarity with each other over time creates almost a sense of an extended family.



Jaicee said:

First of all, sorry it's taken me so long to respond to this! You know how the Texas power grid was knocked out at the start of the week and millions (at one point almost half the state's population) went without electricity -- as in heating and so forth -- in temperatures far below freezing over the course of the week? Well I was affected by that. My house lost power early Monday morning and I only got it back this afternoon (it's Friday), so yeah it's been interesting. I've basically spent as much time at work as possible because it was warmer at the store than at my house, but even the store relied on emergency back-up generators for two days, so there wasn't any heating there either for a good while. Now though the store is being mobbed by people stockpiling stuff again like it's last March; especially water this time though because the water-purifying facilities lost power too, causing the water for half the state to become contaminated. 12 million people even tonight are under local orders to boil water instead of using any running water they may have at home, so people are buying up all the bottled water possible to bathe in and drink of course. It's a disaster. But hey, I hear the same country, same state (NASA is based in Houston, Texas) landed a rover on Mars this week while back here on Earth we froze in the dark because they can't even keep the lights on. Which goes to show you the difference between the efficacy of a federal program and that of relying on private enterprise to solve all our problems like we do in my state because...because...I don't know. I really don't know. As you might have guessed, they've been especially slow to restore power out here in the boonies, as usual. I've been through stuff like this many times before, but this time it's not because I couldn't pay my electric bill.

ANYWAY, as you might well imagine, between no electricity, no mobile phone in that situation, and being mobbed all day at the store for the entire week by panic shoppers, I've been pretty exhausted just trying to survive both physically and psychologically. Video games and online message boards dedicated to them have not only been totally inaccessible to me, but have also been the farthest things from my mind. I literally haven't done anything since I got home from work today but cry and rejoice that I now have heating again and can shower. I've needed time for healing and I'm nowhere near there even now. (Meanwhile my senator vacations out of the country; hard at work raising the issue on the national stage, as might be expected. Why senators even need vacations when they get like a third of the year off anyway while I work 60+ hours a week doing far more productive labor bagging people's groceries and cleaning public toilets and go without basic necessities, I'll never know. Anyhow, way to go re-electing him, Texas! )

...That rant went on longer than expected. Sorry, I needed to vent. You complain at work and they threaten you with termination, so that's not a very practical option. All hail the free enterprise system. We cannot do better. ...SO anyhow, what I've been trying to get at all this time was that that was the reason for the delay. Okay, I think I'm ready to actually respond to what you wrote now. I think.

Well mainly I just wanted to thank you for your comments. I think you're right about your main point: women's perspectives have been largely ignored in games development. I feel that this is owed to a lot of circular logic of men knowing what men like better and therefore making games for men to play and then when women complain of feeling ignored people responding with "Well most gamers are men after all; they make games to satisfy their customers of course!", and so the self-reinforcing cycle of selfishness continues indefinitely. The first step to breaking this vicious cycle methinks is getting more girls and women interested in video games. That's how you increase the number who want to go into everything from professional gaming to games development. The next question is how.

Getting more girls and women interested in gaming is a project to be pursued not for political correctness, but for the benefit of gaming as an art medium, as you say, in that the medium benefits from the presentation of a wide range of stories and perspectives more than from approximate repetition of the same stories and perspectives endlessly, and it's a project that requires overwhelmingly male developers to move out of their comfort zones. And for publishers to let them. And as you also say, that's a work in progress. I guess I'm just optimistic about seeing progress. As we go from a situation where shortly ago the people at Dontnod could only find one publisher that would let them use female protagonists in their game Life is Strange because it was viewed as too much of a commercial risk for neither of them to be male to one of now witnessing The Last of Us Part II winning Game of the Year virtually everywhere, we see volume of women interested in games development slowly creeping up. That in turn will ultimately yield more female game developers and, along with that, more fully honest representations of women in video games themselves. Which in turn are likely to interest even more girls and women in video games, and so on and so on. That's my perspective of it anyway.

In the bolded paragraph, you ask whether "there are any games which directly addresses the question of feminism and has it as its main topic and focus". That's an interesting question! Lots of games I've played include tacit, anecdotal allusions to living in a male-centric culture here and there, but it's quite rare for games to present explicitly feminist themes as the core of their identity. There are definitely some examples though. Lost Wage Rampage comes to mind as a particularly obvious example. (It's a heist game that uses the wage gap as it's narrative justification for that game play.) My favorite game falling into the heavy-on-feminist-perspective category though is definitely the freebie interactive visual novel Butterfly Soup created by Brianna Lei, which is about some Asian-American lesbian high schoolers (and a bi girl) who endeavor to play baseball in 2008, whereupon hijinx ensue. It's the flat-out funniest game I've ever played before. Being a visual novel, it's not heavy on game play, but it is highly enjoyable and one of the best-written games out there. It helps a great deal that the developer is lesbian herself, frankly, to understand the sort of nuances of what that experience can be like. But anyway, sex-specific topics come up in conversation between the girls a lot in a way that feels more organic and natural than it tends to when men create "feminist messages" in games. Where a guy-developed game might include say a "no girls" sign somewhere that female protagonists are like "Well that's bullshit!" about, Butterfly Soup takes the time to do things like flesh out exactly what the prospect of being the only girl on a baseball team feels like to each of them at length, showing why a misogynistically abusive cultural upbringing experienced by one makes it natural for her as part of a general lifestyle of defiance but horribly off-putting to girls more who are more shy or forced into an unhealthy focus on academics for example. The all-female nature of the team eventually formed is important in this connection. The game also explores these experiences through the lens of race in ways that strike one as both accurate and insightful. (For example, if you know anything about the South Korean women's movement, you know that Min is NOT an exaggerated character, and that neither are her experiences!) Romantic love between girls is also a topic explored by the game at good length (it being a romantic comedy, after all). Unlike so many other "yuri" games though, the relationships between the game's characters aren't there to service the male gaze, but rather to flesh out how different sorts of girls respond to discovering they're attracted to other girls; some are ashamed and repressed and struggling to accept themselves because of her background, while another is bold and shameless and still another thinks nothing of it and it all works very well in the service of sheer hilarity. But like I said, it is a freebie visual novel made by one woman. That seems to be the only form in which such themes can be explored with this sort of dedication as yet and it does make one wonder what Brianna Lei might have been able to accomplish with say a real budget and other people to work with. (It's still one of my absolute favorite games.)

I first started my post saying not to worry about the length of you rant, because sometimes things just come out that way and that's actually quite good, and in the end my post has ended up being longer. In fact, I've digressed A LOTa little bit, so I'll leave the part of this post that addresses more directly the initial question visible and put the rest in a couple of spoiler tags: one for a reflection that arose thanks to the article you linked about feminism in Korea (although my digression is not about feminism, but more general) and other for a few more personal comments that are more or less related to the previous digression, but which were actually inspired by this other post of yours.

This said, here's what I've managed to (finally) write.

WARNING: very long read.

I didn't know about the Texas power grid, but I made a quick search and, even if I don't have enough information to form a good opinion, it looks like one of those things that a developed country should've been better prepared for. It also vaguely reminds me of a situation I lived, where I didn't have hot water in November, among several other issues, so I can have a slight idea of how much that situation sucks. I hope it's all fixed for good now (and that Texas is more prepared for similar situations in the future).

Regarding the question of women and games, I think your optimism is well-founded; the only issue is that these kinds of things move veeeery slowly. It took us thousands of years to build a society where inequality is everywhere you look at, from countries to individuals. So for us now to change that, it's just not enough with a few years or decades. Some things will move faster than others, and equal rights for women and men is probably on the fast side of things, but that only means that it will probably take a lot of decades until its fully achieved, instead of centuries. It's a process that current generations might not see completed.

In relation to this, the gaming industry has a big con and a big pro, both based on the same fact: this is a relatively young industry. What that means, on one hand, is that all the changes that take place in this industry have a shallower background (or no background at all) when you compare it to other industries or society in general.

For example, some time ago I watched a documentary (Delphine and Carole) that adressed the feminist movement in France during the second half of the last century and how that movement made its impact in society, but also in the film industry. Well, that right there is some background that the film industry already has, but the game industry doesn't. And this one is actually the only case I know of, but I'm sure there must be some (or a lot) more precedents like this around the world, which is something that is always very useful when it comes to laying the foundations of future advances, but which the game industry still lacks.

On the other hand, however, the relative youth of the game industry (theoretically) means that it's not as established as other industries or elements of society and it's therefore less reluctant to changes. This would be like comparing hard and soft clay: while for the first you'd need to soften it (setting those precedents) before making any real changes, for the second you could just grab it and start modelling it. So, all in all, maybe the game industry is in a better position to make a real change.

It's also true, however, that the main demography of the game industry is still white, straight males, so, softer clay or not, that's already a lot that needs to be remodelled, because that's not a problem that is rooted only in the game industry itself, but in society as a whole: we all live conditioned by both our cultural and sociopolitical circumstances and our most immediate context, which means that the things we like, think, say or do, or even the way we are, are dependent on a lot of external factors. Thus, if the game industry tries to project an image of equility, but at the same time a lot of parents keep buying dolls to their daughters and consoles to their sons, or a Bratz game to their daughters and a GTA game to their sons, then the problem is still going to be there regardless.

Granted, when that girl who only received dolls or Bratz games as presents becomes a woman, she'll then probably have other completely different experiences and live in maybe completely different environments, and maybe one day she will decide to try a GTA game and will love it. But the fact that she was conditioned to like other stuff when she was a child makes that situation by default less likely to happen.

This also leads to a tricky (and more general) question, for which I don't know if there's an answer: if that endless flow of external influences is taken away, what remains of us as individuals? How'd we all actually be if we weren't conditioned to such degree by external factors?

In order to illustrate that better, I'll use Joker's words and twist them a little: we're only as free as the world allows us to be. Of course, in the way we're allowed to be "free", there will always going to be bias: people who (for whatever reason) have the upper hand will try to do all they can to keep it and retain their power. And, since they generally have more means to do it, their views will prevail, at least until those who are relegated to a secondary spot gain enough strength to challenge them.

That can be seen in the big picture: men > women, rich > poor, white > rest of races, straight > rest of sexualities; but also at a smaller and more personal scale: my political party does the best things, my faith (or lack of it) makes the most sense, my job is the most important, my hobbies are the most valuable, my children are the best students, my house is the cleanest one, my console of choice is the best to play games, and so on and on and on. We, (modern) humans, live in a constant need of self-reinforcing, as if acknowledging that other people's stuff, interests, thoughts, feelings, etc. can be as good or acceptable as ours would somehow take something away from ourselves or make us lose a part of our identity.

Going back to the video games scenario, as you very well said, men stating that games are made for men because they have to satisfy their costumers could be a good example of that self-reinforcing ("it's our hobbie, not yours"). And, apart of that, there are also some other established ideas or prejudices. For example: "Is she really gonna play with us? Bah, we're gonna spend more time teaching her how to play than actually playing... That's not funny", which is a double prejudice: one, she's never played games because she's a woman; and two, she's bad by default because of that same reason.

That simple situation alone creates from the very beginning a climate of unpleasantness (or even hostility) that doesn't make easy for anyone to join in and have a good time, because they're basically treated like if they were idiots before they even have the chance to learn (if they didn't know the game) or show their skill (if they have already played it).

That also generates a situation of superiority for the men and disadvantage for the woman, who sees herself forced to prove that she's good just to be put at more or less the same level that the rest. And if she's actually good and a man gets beaten by her in a certain video game, for instance, that victory will not be attributed to the skill of the woman, but to the man being bad.

All these situations are based on real ones that I've seen or heard of in the past, around more than a decade ago, so I don't know how much truth they hold today, but the point is that these kinds of situations are rooted in society itself and the game industry won't be able to change that, without the effect of external factors, like all these movements and fights that take place all over the world, but mainly (in my opinion, at least) education, which is currently (also in my opinion) bad or even awful. I mean, when a person finishes their studies knowing the name of the highest peak in the longest mountain chain of the country of Randomnameland, and yet is unable to understand something as simple as the idea that no one is superior or inferior to no one, then we can say that something is just fundamentally wrong with the way things work.

Throughout my life, I've heard people saying a lot of times that basic human values, like solidarity or respect for others, should be taught to children by their parents rather than by educational institutions. And, while that makes sense, my question is: if educational institutions don't teach those basic principles and values because it's not their job and parents can't do it because they didn't receive that education in the first place, who's gonna do it?

The only way people have to learn something so basic is by means of what they get to see, hear or live throughout their lifetimes, but by the time they are trully and fully exposed to all that, they will already be adults who will have assimilated a lot of negative stuff that they will have now to unlearn. Consequently, all those adults will be forced to adapt to a new way of thinking and acting that is opposed to the one they (directly or indirectly) learnt for years and years when they were children. And, while social fights and movements are necessary for this to happen, the biggest push should come from education: if children grow up showing the same consideration for a black, lesbian woman than what they show for a white, straight man - and that becomes for them as natural as the mere act of breathing, then no social fights or movements of any kind would be needed.

Basically, what should be the unquestionable reality is (at this point in time) nothing more than a utopia, which is one of the reasons why I think the official education needs to be fully reformed (at least in my country, but probably in many, many others too).

Spoiler!

Besides, social fights and movements have another problem, which is well explained in the article you linked: "While feminists in the West who have jobs, property, and supportive families, and who do not face direct discrimination for refusing feminine practices, will say that they cannot be openly radical feminist due to financial precariousness and fear of reprisal, women in Daegu — whose income is precarious, who live in a far more male-dominated culture, persist."

I can't speak for the feminist movement in particular, but, the way I see it, that statement is a general truth that could apply to all kinds of fights: the fear of losing more than what they're aiming to achieve drives people to a state of pasivity and acceptance of reality, even if it's not the best for them. And the more they grow up and the more they gain, the less they're prone to want an uprising or align themselves with a certain fight or movement that could benefit them; thus, the true, subversive acts of rebellion are a lot common among young people, but not pretty much among the adult population, who have works and homes that they could lose, and a lot of entertainment that makes them happy and helps them evade from all those aspects of reality that they don't like.

In fact, I think that's precisely one of the greatest "triumphs" of modern, developed societies: the welfare state. They offer us a lot more shiny services and products than what we can actually have, telling us that the more we enjoy or collect of them, the happier we'll be and the better we'll live, which to an extent is true. But the problem is that we don't have a choice: since we're born, we have to unconditionally accept our roles as meaningless pieces of a bigger puzzle and see ourselves forced to sell our life in order to buy the promise of a better one, which in many cases won't even become real; that's our true meaning and purpose in life: the constant search of our promised life under a lot of unfair and biased conditions.

And yet we still think of this as something positive, something which we embrace and defend, by repeating the same lesson what we've learnt during our whole life: that we live in the best of all possible worlds. And that, in my opinion, is just bullshit: we live in the world that is more convenient for those people who (successfully) try to indoctrinate us in believing that this is the best of all possible worlds. The same principle that I commented before applies here too: those who have the upper hand will always try to keep it.

Now, I understand that for a society to work properly we all need to make our contribution, and that's something that I'm not implying that needs to be changed. In fact, people who are happy with their current lives should still be able to maintain their lives unchanged and be as happy as they are now. The problem is that often this not the case, and that's because of multiple reasons: not everyone has the same opportunities, not all the opportunities have the same value... This current model of society is very, very unbalanced in a lot of ways and levels.

And it only gets worse when we think of the main tacit rule or condition that is supposed to regulate and secure the functioning of this society as a whole: basically, this current model forces us to have a job..., but is blatantly unable to provide one for everyone. How the fuck is this world supposed to be the best of all possible worlds if it already fails at such a basic level?

This whole situation I just described can be compared to playing a game where you need a key to get access to all the locations of the map, but in which the key is just not there. So you just stay in the same place for an indefinite amount of time, wandering aimlessly until the key finally decides to appear. And, when it does, it's not even a certainty that you'll be able to keep it, so you may end up in the same situation than before: stuck once again in the same place. If I had to rate a game like that, I would certainly not give it a pass.

But, even if you're able to secure your key and have it with you all the time, what you will find in a lot of those locations that you now have access to is everything but funny: many people, like those who are in the primary sector, work in terrible conditions even today, while others have better job conditions, but lack the time to fully enjoy that better life that they were promised they'd enjoy - and we don't have to go too far to find a perfect example for this: many of those who are in the game industry could have a word here.

Speaking of this industry, I don't know if it's the same in all schools, but the teachers in the one I attended just kept telling us that, when we'd finally get to work, sometimes we would have to work more hours than what were stipulated in our contracts and that those hours wouldn't necessarily be paid, because our contracts wouldn't be based on time worked, but on projects and dates, so we would need to have those projects finished at a certain time regardless of how many hours we would need to spend on them. And, if we didn't like that, the company would just fire us and choose another person who would willingly do that job we didn't want to do, because there would be a lot of young people who'd be more than happy to do it just for the sake of working in the game industry.

And all that was told to us so that we were prepared to embrace it as something normal and natural, as something that we shouldn't question, because that's just how things work and we cannot do anything to change them. We were basically indoctrinated, and people were happy about it, because, even if companies would exploit them, at least they'd be doing something they liked. That was their logic, at least.

And, if I go back to my Translation studies, things don't get much better: we were told a lot of times that many of the translation assignments that we'd receive would have ridiculous deadlines, to the extent that this became a more or less common joke there, like this: "Hey, something new today?" "Yeah, another translation." "Oh, okay. And when is the deadline?" "Yesterday." Well, that was it. And, even if people in Translation were a bit more critical with this situation than all the youngsters in the video game studies, they would still just accept it as something natural that didn't deserve a second thought, so in the end, there wasn't much difference.

And here I'm talking about only a couple of specific jobs that have more or less good condtions beyond hours worked, but there are lots of more and even worse situations in jobs with much tougher conditions. And all that is without even counting other factors, like the time spent in moving from home to work and vice versa, and in the case of people working both in mornings and evening, that dead time that is left in between. We're basically living in a society where we either have time or money, but never both, and which treats us as machines designed to work, while we accept that situation as "the best of all possible worlds".

And, well, maybe it's true that at some point this was the best possible world, but at the rate things move nowadays, I really think that this status quo is (becoming) really obsolete and we're reaching a point of dire stagnation, where we just occasionally tweak things a little, but without moving forward at all. Using a gaming analogy, we're playing the same game once and again with a few minor quality of life improvements and maybe some minor DLCs added from time to time, when we should already be playing instead a full and much needed sequel that would expand upon what is already built, but improving it in all the possible ways.

But (and with this I come back to the initial point that gave room to all this excessively long speech), if we want things to move forward and to move faster, we need to make clear that we're not happy with how all this currently works, and that's where the problem lies: our lives are not as good as they could be and we know it, but they're also not as bad as to make us want to put them at stake.

In this regard, positive psychology has become, intentionally or not, a good tool to control people, because it promotes the acceptance of everything as it is, while creating artificial diversions from reality that are sold as infallible (and almost divine, in some cases) solutions for our true problems in real life. And let me clarify: it's important for us and our mental health to accept ourselves and accept reality, and it's also important to have some distractions that help us clear our mind a little, but all that shouldn't be conceived as the solution to our problems, but as the foundation which would help us find the true solutions for those problems.

Expressing that in gaming terms (again), that situation that I'm talking about would be similar to that of a player who always dies in a certain boss stage. That player ends up feeling frustrated and asks for help, and then someone tells her/him: "You just need to use a shield to protect yourself against boss attacks. Do that, and you'd only have to worry about enjoying the graphics, animations and effects of the beautiful game you're playing".

And, of course, there's nothing wrong with admiring the art of the game and it's indeed necessary to use a shield for protection against these boss attacks, but, if you don't strike back, how can you possibly beat it? Yes, maybe the boss won't defeat you thanks to your shield, but you will not defeat the boss either. Instead, you'll just get stuck in that same stage forever. Well, that's more or less what all these methods of positive psychology promote.

Of course, I'm conscious that there are some problems or situations that cannot be sorted or fought, and in those cases there's not much else that we can do than just accepting them. That's indeed true. But it's important to be able to acknowledge which situations can be changed and which can't, and all this positive psychology doesn't make a distinction at all.

And the worst part is that all these methods have been spreading so much for years and they're now so widely accepted and followed that I now feel that sharing our problems, fears, weaknesses and frustrations is harder than ever. When I was younger, more than a decade ago, people didn't hide their bad feelings as much as they do now, because they didn't have this imperative need to project an artificial image of 100% positivity to the world: if they were fucked up, they were fucked up, period. In today's world, however, when someone has been through a very bad experience, they tend to embellish it and disguise it so that it looks more positive; people today are more reluctant to recognize that sometimes things can be wrong and shit just happens.

And if I were to find reasons for that, I'd say that there are two main motivations: the first is that happiness works as one of many means of achieving self-reinforcement, in the sense that, when other people brag about their life or their alledged happiness, you don't want to fall behind and instead you just feel the need to say: "Hey, I'm happy too! Look at what I have, what I've lived, what I've done!" In a way, maybe we (unconsciously) feel that we have to be at least as happy as the rest in order to find some value in ourselves and our lives.

And the second reason is that, since people have become so opposed to anything negative and only look now for good vibes and other people who share that same mentality, there may be a certain fear of rejection, of staying out of the flow, so to speak; and so we just hide all what worries us and disguise it with a big smile. In a way, it's almost like if expressing negative feelings is seen as some kind of crime or sin nowadays, and the person who dares to do it becomes toxic and isn't worth of other people's time and attention; like if we've partially lost the freedom to feel bad and the only feelings that we are allowed to have are positive ones.

Overall, this is a bit like when the URSS created all that propaganda that was used to project a wonderful image of themselves that didn't match at all with reality. Except that this time the image is not projected towards the outside, but towards all the individuals that are part of that society, and it's not the governments that try to spread it, but people themselves. And, since that image is more or less spreaded in this society, the result is that we all end up living in a humongous bubble of artificial happiness where the good always prevails and there's no need to make any change beyond some little tweaks here and there. Basically, we'are getting back again to the same initial idea that gave room to this (kind of random) speech: people don't think that their situation is bad enough to get themselves involved in a more efficient fight.

Spoiler!

Anyway, since I've already gotten quite far away from the original topic and half this post is not directly aimed to you, but it's instead a bunch or more general thoughts (although motivated for what you said or the article you linked), I'd like to use this speech about positive psychology in order to finish this with a more personal note that is actually addressed to you. What I'm going to say in this last part is based on this post that you wrote a couple of weeks ago and the reason to do so is that I myself know how it is to be in a dark spot (I don't know how dark, but definitely dark) and also I met someone who was in a similar situation that what you described there, so I thought that maybe you can get something useful out of these experiences. So, whether that's the case or not, here I go.

A little bit of context first: since my early teens, I've always wanted to become a writer; that has always been my goal in life and (almost) the only thing that I've really wanted to do, so all the big decisions that I've taken in my life I've taken them based on that. At some point, I had a literary crisis and started to feel that I was at a standstill, writing about the same stuff over and over again. Then, more or less at the same time, some other things happen that made me develop (pun intended) my interest in creating games: there's so much going on in a video game that I consider it the perfect medium to create allegories that are deep and complex, while at the same time being fun and entertaining.

So I decided to go for it and, instead of doing my internship after finishing my studies, what I did was trying to develop games on my own, with the idea of eventually starting my own indie company. Needless to say that this didn't go well... At all.

Basically, I made a lot of mistakes and took a lot of bad decisions: everything I could do wrong I did it wrong. Apart from that, people were telling me that I couldn't do it, that I shouldn't try, that it was impossible, that I had no talent creating games (regardless of my skill with the programs), etc. Obviously, all that didn't help much... And I mean, I'm not trying to discharge responsiblity by saying this: I'm the only one responsible for my mistakes and my decisions. But all those people telling me or implying with their acts that I was going to fail certainly had an influence on the bad decisions I made. Which, again, doesn't really matter, because I'm the only one responsible for them.

Anyway, during that time when I was trying to create and publish (mobile) games, I also went through a period of such a strong anxiety that I start having nightmares first and a recurring hallucination later (which basically consisted of a shadow that wanted to kill me). Besides, also during that time, I became obsessed with my project and with the idea of having a lot of games done by the end of that year, to the extent that sometimes I felt that I wasn't doing it for me and because I really liked what I was doing, but instead to shut other people's mouths.

Of course, that ended up terribly bad: after a break, the anxiety and the obsession dissapeared, but only then I was starting to actually see all those mistakes I made and bad decisions I took, and realizing that I was flushing this opportunity down the toilet. At that time, I was living in a pretty decadent place under bad conditions and was also running out of money, so all those elements put together resulted in me having a bad feeling every time I tried to keep up with my project; what's worst, that bad feeling ended up spreading, until the time came when almost everything that had always made me feel good was then making me feeling bad: I didn't want to write and I stopped doing things like reading or watching movies, because I felt that I was literally too stupid to even be able to understand them. So the only thing that was still left for me in terms of hobbies or activities that made feel good was playing games. But, even with that, there were still a lot of days when I just didn't want to do anything and stayed lying in bed for hours. I also neglected my personal hygiene (sometimes I didn't take a shower in three days or so) and, in general, I didn't fully enjoy the few things that I still did; it was like being a ghost in life.

Now, in my current life I'm not happy (quite the opposite, I'd say: I'm pretty dissatisfied and I feel constantly frustrated), but luckily I've also moved away from the way I was before. And if I have to tell a reason why, I'd say that this is due to a lot of changes that I've been doing (and keep doing) in my life. Let's say that the perspective of a real and meaningful change has worked very well as a medicine for me. And when I talk about a 'meaningful' change, I don't mean a big one, but one that makes sense, that actually serves well my purposes in life and that aligns with what who I am and who I want to become.

And if I tell you all this is because, in spite of the differences, I see some similarities with what you told in the other thread and I thought that maybe you could find something in this experience that might be somewhat useful for your specific situation. I mean, 38 years are not that much, if you think about it: in terms of console sales, you'd still be on the peak of your life and, while that peak may be low in comparison with what you would've wanted, there are still lots of years in front of you and lots of decisions that you can make in order to turn these years into a lifecycle less akin to that of the Wii and more akin to that of the PS2 - or even better: to that of the Game Boy/Game Boy Color. (Yeah, this is a crappy analogy...)

I also kind of know that, when you're in a state of low energy, tedium and perpetual exhaustion, it's not easy to take active measures to improve your life, because that situation itself works as a barrier of sorts that keeps pushing you back every time you try to move forward. Not to mention other potential factors that may or may not be changed and which could also work as barriers. However, unless you've already lost all hope (which I believe it's not the case), I think it's important to not just giving into that state of mind and instead do your best to try to slowly drive your life to where you want it to be. Improving one's life is a long, complicated and sometimes frustrating process, but it's also a gratifying one at times and one that is generally worth it.

So what I'd tell you is to take all that exasperation that you feel and use it as a motivation to try to change and improve your life to the extent possible; or, using another gaming analogy, to take your tears and make a weapon out of them.

This is way longer than what I expected and took me more time that what I thought, so I won't add much more to it, except what I usually say about how wrong I can be, which in this case is even more true because of all the amount of shit I wrote, and particularly in the last paragraphs, since different people can have very different experiences and it's hard that one person's pieces of advices can effectively apply to others. Also, with all I wrote, I still think that I didn't do anything more than scratching the surface of every topic I addressed, so... yeah, this can end up being one BIG pile of shit.

Anyway, I downloaded the game you talked about in your post and it seems to be short, so, although I've been (and will be) kind of busy these days, I want to play it soon - I'm curious about it.



I'm mostly a lurker now.

Mummelmann said:

This thread has long-ass posts with actual content and arguments. I believe I like that. Unfortunately, there are very few gaming forums with as much headroom as in here, this thread and some of the posts contained within will probably be difficult, or even impossible, to start and maintain on most forums. I stopped posting in other forums long ago; shit is just too toxic and monocultural most of the time, in whichever direction.

you need someone to be your johnlucas



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