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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Digital Foundry - Dirt 5

They seemed to be struggling pretty bad to come up with an excuse. They basicly where waiting for the other one to say it untill one of them actually said bug. Their bias is pretty clear.



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shikamaru317 said:
DonFerrari said:

I have sent you two or three times the links... Dirt 5 dev said the tools were in similar state for both consoles

Even if they claimed that, it seems highly doubtful based on their results here. There is nothing in the specs that suggests that the gap in performance on a multiplat should be in favor of the PS5, the latest stats have the Series X beating the PS5 in just about every on-paper metric, CPU speed, RAM speed, bus width, pixels per second, texels per second, triangles per second, rays per second. At the very least Series X and PS5 should have near identical performance. The only thing that can explain a performance gap like we're seeing on these launch games is simply bad optimization on Series X, and the best explanation for poor optimization, on games like AC and Dirt 5, which Microsoft had the marketing rights on, is that dev kits and dev tools released too late for developers to optimize properly ahead of release.

Well saying 'nothing' isn't really accurate. PS5 has a higher clock speed for the GPU while SX has more CU's instead. If a game takes full advantage of both, then you'd expect an advantage for SX. But if a game makes use of fewer CU's, then it would be in favor of PS5.
There are some other noteworthy differences between them, like dedicated DMA controller and decompression chip, and the SSD controller is designed to offload large assets like a super fast RAM.
So depending on how games are designed, can't rule out that SX and PS5 may go back and forth on different categories. But I think overall I'd expect SX to generally be ahead by a bit for the most part. The differences shouldn't be as big as we're seeing with Dirt though.

Perhaps they're using the profile of Xbox One or something. Would like to see what it looks like on the old consoles for comparison.



Hiku said:
shikamaru317 said:

Even if they claimed that, it seems highly doubtful based on their results here. There is nothing in the specs that suggests that the gap in performance on a multiplat should be in favor of the PS5, the latest stats have the Series X beating the PS5 in just about every on-paper metric, CPU speed, RAM speed, bus width, pixels per second, texels per second, triangles per second, rays per second. At the very least Series X and PS5 should have near identical performance. The only thing that can explain a performance gap like we're seeing on these launch games is simply bad optimization on Series X, and the best explanation for poor optimization, on games like AC and Dirt 5, which Microsoft had the marketing rights on, is that dev kits and dev tools released too late for developers to optimize properly ahead of release.

Well saying 'nothing' isn't really accurate. PS5 has a higher clock speed for the GPU while SX has more CU's instead. If a game takes full advantage of both, then you'd expect an advantage for SX. But if a game makes use of fewer CU's, then it would be in favor of PS5.
There are some other noteworthy differences between them, like dedicated DMA controller and decompression chip, and the SSD controller is designed to offload large assets like a super fast RAM.
So depending on how games are designed, can't rule out that SX and PS5 may go back and forth on different categories. But I think overall I'd expect SX to generally be ahead by a bit for the most part. The differences shouldn't be as big as we're seeing with Dirt though.

Perhaps they're using the profile of Xbox One or something. Would like to see what it looks like on the old consoles for comparison.

Some fair points, but most game engines can handle more CU's than Series X has, Series X has 52 CU's, all 3 of the newly announced Radeon RX 6000 series GPU's have more CU's than that, with 80 CU's on the flagship 6900 XT, and the early benchmarks for those cards show that games seem to be benefitting from the extra CU's. 

It's certainly possible that things like the SSD controller and decompression chip could lead to better performance on PS5, but you would typically only expect 1st party studios to properly make uses of such things, not 3rd parties, which tend to be somewhat lazy with optimizations. In most cases the obvious on-paper advantages directly translate into better performance on 3rd party multiplats. For a 3rd party multiplat dev to put in the work needed to really take advantage of PS5 to boost games above Series X, it just seems unlikely to me. It just feels more likely to me that the rumors about MS sending out their new Game Core dev tools and dev kits to devs pretty late into the year are true, which would of course lead to devs not having the time to get used to the system before launch. I could be wrong of course.

Either way, we will know within a few months at least. If the delayed tools and dev kit rumors are true, we should see some performance patches for these launch games over the next few weeks that close the gap with PS5, with newly released 3rd parties over the next few months starting to show a smaller gap between PS5 and XSX and an eventual performance lead for XSX as time goes on. If things stay the way they are for the next few months in terms of 3rd party multiplat performance, we'll pretty much know that MS made some kind of bottlenecking design blunder. 

Last edited by shikamaru317 - on 21 November 2020

thismeintiel said:

As for bias, if you can't see that DF is obviously biased for MS, that probably says a a lot about your own biases. During the 360/PS3 era it was all positives for 360 in comparisons. Looking at any fine detail on PS3 games to show how they were inferior. When the PS4 was on top we got excuses for the XBO, questioning if resolution was really that important. An ever slight frame or two advantage on the XBO was more important than a increase in resolution from 720p/900p to 1080p. Usually ending each comparison by saying you'll be happy on either console, when before they were saying which console they recommended to get the game on. The 2nd the XBO X came out, it was here to "save the day."

Now we jump to this gen. DF were helping spread the FUD about PS5's variable clock rate, even having a flawed comparison using RDNA1 chips. When MS showed off their poor looking flagship title, Halo Infinite, quickly they had an excuse vid out, claiming most of the problem was a lack of raytracing. When people pointed out many other things, Alex said he was just too tired to go into it all. Keep in mind, this was just after zooming in really close on PS5 footage to show the raytracing reflections were lower quality or were missing objects. And now after we've had a few next-gen comparisons where they seemed pleasantly surprised about PS5 outperforming XSX, in this video they sound more troubled by it. It's almost as if they either realize that they shouldn't be excited by a system punching above its weight or they were told it's something they shouldn't seem excited by.

Just ask yourself, where are any of the videos making excuses for the way any game performs or looks on PlayStation?

Yeah, they've been expecting Series X to have noticeable advantages but so did nearly every other person in this industry prior to the launch. And now that they're actually able to test the machines, they are indeed giving PS5 credit. On most sites, the understanding is that DF has placed PS5 at or above Series X in all of their comparisons so far.

Regarding Dirt 5, I don't blame them for choosing their words carefully. 1) Because toxic fans are ready to question and attack them if they're even slightly too positive about one of the consoles. 2) Because they've still only tested a handful of games which aren't enough to conclude anything. If PS5 keeps punching above its weight in the following months, they won't hesitate reiterating it.

They're providing this service for free for those interested. No one is forced to follow them or see their videos. Personal attacks are never justifiable (not saying you're doing that).



LudicrousSpeed said:

We literally had articles and rumors posted all over the Internets earlier this year, many times by Sony fans themselves, about how PS5 was easier to develop for because the tools were further along than Xbox. Now some of those same people want to say the tools are not an issue, even while posting comparison videos where the people in the videos claim the tools are a problem. In the same video they use as evidence for PS5 vs XSX power, the people in the video say you should never take anything like that out of launch title comparisons. Yikes. 

Are you referring to someone here, or people from other sites?

shikamaru317 said:
Hiku said:

Well saying 'nothing' isn't really accurate. PS5 has a higher clock speed for the GPU while SX has more CU's instead. If a game takes full advantage of both, then you'd expect an advantage for SX. But if a game makes use of fewer CU's, then it would be in favor of PS5.
There are some other noteworthy differences between them, like dedicated DMA controller and decompression chip, and the SSD controller is designed to offload large assets like a super fast RAM.
So depending on how games are designed, can't rule out that SX and PS5 may go back and forth on different categories. But I think overall I'd expect SX to generally be ahead by a bit for the most part. The differences shouldn't be as big as we're seeing with Dirt though.

Perhaps they're using the profile of Xbox One or something. Would like to see what it looks like on the old consoles for comparison.

Some fair points, but most game engines can handle more CU's than Series X has, Series X has 52 CU's, all 3 of the newly announced Radeon RX 6000 series GPU's have more CU's than that, with 80 CU's on the flagship 6900 XT, and the early benchmarks for those cards show that games seem to be benefitting from the extra CU's. 

It's certainly possible that things like the SSD controller and decompression chip could lead to better performance on PS5, but you would typically only expect 1st party studios to properly make uses of such things, not 3rd parties, which tend to be somewhat lazy with optimizations. In most cases the obvious on-paper advantages directly translate into better performance on 3rd party multiplats. For a 3rd party multiplat dev to put in the work needed to really take advantage of PS5 to boost games above Series X, it just seems unlikely to me. It just feels more likely to me that the rumors about MS sending out their new Game Core dev tools and dev kits to devs pretty late into the year are true, which would of course lead to devs not having the time to get used to the system before launch. I could be wrong of course.

Either way, we will know within a few months at least. If the delayed tools and dev kit rumors are true, we should see some performance patches for these launch games over the next few weeks that close the gap with PS5, with newly released 3rd parties over the next few months starting to show a smaller gap between PS5 and XSX and an eventual performance lead for XSX as time goes on. If things stay the way they are for the next few months in terms of 3rd party multiplat performance, we'll pretty much know that MS made some kind of bottlenecking design blunder. 

I can't say I know about most game engines, but the latest graphics cards at the upper end of the spectrum, and not really the standard yet.

As for the SSD, when it comes to building worlds without having to create extra walls, mazes, ladders, etc, I would rarely ever expect that from third party multiplatform games, because it would literally be designing two completely different games in those areas. But for quickly streaming in and offloading expensive assets like high res textures, as you normally would with RAM, I can't say because I don't know how easy or difficult that is made to be on PS5. I only saw one developer theorizing about it.

The rumor of the later dev kits may be accurate. Though the Dirt 5 developer seemingly said they got both dev kits around the same time, so I think the weird last gen looking geometry is due to something else. Final Fantasy 7 Remake also has a similar glitch with some of its textures.
Though if SX is going to play catchup with making it more easy to develop for, the question is how long that will take since PS5's development tools will keep evolving at the same time. Though if SX has more leeway to make up for, their development may be more rapid.

Last edited by Hiku - on 21 November 2020

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shikamaru317 said:
enigmaxg2 said:

Of course they will downplay everything they can, they are Xbox biased more than slightly I guess, but the differences are so huge that there's no way to hide them.

If you honestly think that DF is Xbox biased, then you are probably too far lost to be helped at this point.

Digital Foundry regularly sings praises for the technical ability of Sony's 1st party studios, they particularly love Guerilla's Decima engine, praising it's capabilties in both their Horizon Zero Dawn and Death Stranding analysis videos. They praised the performance of multiplats on base PS4 for pretty much the whole generation, and recently have been highly critical of the poor performance of multiplats on base Xbox One (and rightly so, it has fallen to 720p-900p with less than 30 fps on many games the past year or two). Just recently they released a video singing praises about how good PS5's back compat is.

On the other hand, they also praise the technical ability of some of Microsoft's 1st party studios, particularly The Coalition's mastery of the Unreal Engine. They rightly point out the significant performance advantages of Xbox One X over PS4 Pro.

In other words, they are pretty balanced in their coverage, not really biased one way or the other. Rightly calling a console that is more powerful than another console, be it PS4 over Xbox One or Xbox One X over PS4 Pro, does not make them biased. Participating on the discord for a popular Xbox podcast does not make them biased. 

You would think that with years and years of these comparisons and Xbone coming up short, it would have been Xbox fans convinced DF is biased but for some reason it is the other side of the coin.

I really think it’s that they aren’t negative enough towards Xbox for their tastes. It’s like that old yearbook quote meme where the guy says something along the lines of “it’s not just that I should succeed, others should fail” (yes I know it’s actually regurgitated from an old quote). They fail to realize that not everyone thinks in the console war mentality. Why would any professional outlet shit on either console, lol. They rely on them for games and hardware. They think DF should engage in talk about these things in the same way they themselves do on twitter and forums. I remember when GAF was in an uproar because DF didn’t do a video based on the video Sony made of the tear down. Give me a break.



shikamaru317 said:
DonFerrari said:

I have sent you two or three times the links... Dirt 5 dev said the tools were in similar state for both consoles

Even if they claimed that, it seems highly doubtful based on their results here. There is nothing in the specs that suggests that the gap in performance on a multiplat should be in favor of the PS5, the latest stats have the Series X beating the PS5 in just about every on-paper metric, CPU speed, RAM speed, bus width, pixels per second, texels per second, triangles per second, rays per second. At the very least Series X and PS5 should have near identical performance. The only thing that can explain a performance gap like we're seeing on these launch games is simply bad optimization on Series X, and the best explanation for poor optimization, on games like AC and Dirt 5, which Microsoft had the marketing rights on, is that dev kits and dev tools released too late for developers to optimize properly ahead of release.

Oliver Darko no Twitter: "Sidenote: "All in all development on Xbox Series X has been more of the same. [...] My day-to-day TOOLSET hasn't changed that much." - David Springate, technical director of Dirt 5 (interviewed by Larry Hryb in June 2020). cc: @TigerCA123, @JayBari_ @JayDubcity16, @Puertorock77_ https://t.co/duiX68rOQ7" / Twitter

The rumors of delayed SDKs and whatnot are all sourceless. The ones of the SDK being at least on similar status as PS5 have the name od the devs talking about that, so I would take that with higher preference.

Pemalite said:
JRPGfan said:

Go re-watch the video from 19mins to 20mins again.
DF say that it running lesser quality in 120fps mode, "pays off".

That means not a bug (but a choice, to mantain 120fps more consistantly), john says that in the video dude.

They say 2 differnt things, about the same issue (at differnt times in the video).

"If you think DF is so biased, why are you bothering to spend all this time watching these videos? What a bizarre mindset to have."

Because they show proof.
They cannot twist truth.

When you see the frame time graphs, and the picture compairisons they speak for themselves.

Does it matter that DF are "gentle" whenever they handle a xbox issue, and harsher when its a playstation one?
Well.. yes.. its abit off putting (their not supposed to be biased), but in this case in point, its running better on the PS5 anyways (so not a issue).


*edit:
Also I forgot that "slighly less" image quality, was used in compairson with the 120fps mode.


Less Car LoD, enviroment details, lesser road tessellation, less grass/foliage, geometric cutbacks, and less texture filtering...  
= Slightly less image quality.

Digital foundry said it was likely a bug.

I would assume the Playstation 5 was supposed to take a visual hit in that mode and didn't... And will likely be rectified at a later date.
The Playstation 5 also has another bug which impacts the dynamic range... Hopefully that gets fixed as well.

Doesn't make sense to be a bug. A whole mode to use wrong profile? And that is coincidentaly similar to what was several months back when they showed the 120fps first time? Something this big and no one on QC would have got? It is much more likely that they chose it for stability on the 120. And even like that it had tearing and in some points drops in framerate reaching 96.

Hiku said:
LudicrousSpeed said:

We literally had articles and rumors posted all over the Internets earlier this year, many times by Sony fans themselves, about how PS5 was easier to develop for because the tools were further along than Xbox. Now some of those same people want to say the tools are not an issue, even while posting comparison videos where the people in the videos claim the tools are a problem. In the same video they use as evidence for PS5 vs XSX power, the people in the video say you should never take anything like that out of launch title comparisons. Yikes. 

Are you referring to someone here, or people from other sites?

shikamaru317 said:

Some fair points, but most game engines can handle more CU's than Series X has, Series X has 52 CU's, all 3 of the newly announced Radeon RX 6000 series GPU's have more CU's than that, with 80 CU's on the flagship 6900 XT, and the early benchmarks for those cards show that games seem to be benefitting from the extra CU's. 

It's certainly possible that things like the SSD controller and decompression chip could lead to better performance on PS5, but you would typically only expect 1st party studios to properly make uses of such things, not 3rd parties, which tend to be somewhat lazy with optimizations. In most cases the obvious on-paper advantages directly translate into better performance on 3rd party multiplats. For a 3rd party multiplat dev to put in the work needed to really take advantage of PS5 to boost games above Series X, it just seems unlikely to me. It just feels more likely to me that the rumors about MS sending out their new Game Core dev tools and dev kits to devs pretty late into the year are true, which would of course lead to devs not having the time to get used to the system before launch. I could be wrong of course.

Either way, we will know within a few months at least. If the delayed tools and dev kit rumors are true, we should see some performance patches for these launch games over the next few weeks that close the gap with PS5, with newly released 3rd parties over the next few months starting to show a smaller gap between PS5 and XSX and an eventual performance lead for XSX as time goes on. If things stay the way they are for the next few months in terms of 3rd party multiplat performance, we'll pretty much know that MS made some kind of bottlenecking design blunder. 

I can't say I know about most game engines, but the latest graphics cards at the upper end of the spectrum, and not really the standard yet.

As for the SSD, when it comes to building worlds without having to create extra walls, mazes, ladders, etc, I would rarely ever expect that from third party multiplatform games, because it would literally be designing two completely different games in those areas. But for quickly streaming in and offloading expensive assets like high res textures, as you normally would with RAM, I can't say because I don't know how easy or difficult that is made to be on PS5. I only saw one developer theorizing about it.

The rumor of the later dev kits may be accurate. Though the Dirt 5 developer seemingly said they got both dev kits around the same time, so I think the weird last gen looking geometry is due to something else. Final Fantasy 7 Remake also has a similar glitch with some of its textures.
Though if SX is going to play catchup with making it more easy to develop for, the question is how long that will take since PS5's development tools will keep evolving at the same time. Though if SX has more leeway to make up for, their development may be more rapid.

About the SDK, I posted another 2 sources talking about how satisfied they were with Xbox SDK.



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As a sony gamer, these comparisons mean nothing. I hate seeing people from my own side getting excited over a game meant for current gen. Jim ryan said game console potentials won't come for another 3 years. The developer of the game said they were only using one new feature, out of the 3 or 4 from microsoft. Even the dev kits had improved on both consoles. Things will only get interesting once they start tappig into the potential of the systems and start utilizing the features. Having said that, i still believe the series s will hold back series x full potential. 



shikamaru317 said:
DonFerrari said:

I have sent you two or three times the links... Dirt 5 dev said the tools were in similar state for both consoles

Even if they claimed that, it seems highly doubtful based on their results here. There is nothing in the specs that suggests that the gap in performance on a multiplat should be in favor of the PS5, the latest stats have the Series X beating the PS5 in just about every on-paper metric, CPU speed, RAM speed, bus width, pixels per second, texels per second, triangles per second, rays per second. At the very least Series X and PS5 should have near identical performance. The only thing that can explain a performance gap like we're seeing on these launch games is simply bad optimization on Series X, and the best explanation for poor optimization, on games like AC and Dirt 5, which Microsoft had the marketing rights on, is that dev kits and dev tools released too late for developers to optimize properly ahead of release.

Yes it's still early in the console generation, on specs it seems like xbox should atleast be on par if not slightly better. However ps5 has the ssd advantage, has unified ram but not split, and supposedly better i/o system. if ps5 does indeed have the better i/o, then it may over come the cu count advantage/teraflop of the series x.



Devs are working on a patch that fixes many of the things in the video they say. Hopefully DF tests the patch once it's out, interested to see if it's enough to close the gap with PS5.

Last edited by shikamaru317 - on 22 November 2020