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Forums - Politics Discussion - A French teacher beheaded, chaos ensues, EU warns Turkey of sanctions

JRPGfan said:
Eagle367 said:

*Terrorists, not Muslims. Also you don't understand why images of Muhammad aren't allowed. They aren't allowed because Muhammad shouldn't be worshipped like God is worshipped. Not like how Christians worship the image of Christ. So images of Muhammad were forbidden. And Muslims have to follow the example of Muhammad, which is why I don't really give a damn about the stupid drawings. It is obviously to anger Muslims but Muhammad taught us to be tolerant against hate and not to retaliate. Plus it's just the drawing of a random arabic dude since Charlie Hebdo has no idea how Muhammad looked like. The intention was to mock so if you don't react, no one will care to do it again. I do understand why people would be angry though.

But I am angry against Macron because he is stoking flames and causing further hate to be directed towards muslims while he is also causing more Muslims to hate France and the west. He is an idiot.

Regarding multiple wives, there are rules to that and it's restricted to 4 for Muslims but only if you can treat them all fairly so the default is still 1 marriage and it's more or less encouraged. Regarding the age of one of his wives, people of that region at that time reached puberty early and were married off early. Age difference wasn't emphasized as much in the Arab society. His first wife was like 15 years older than him.  This is why the critique of the age of the wives is a modern thing and you can't find such critique from Islam sceptics even a few centuries back. People of the past had no concept of teenage years. It was just kid to adult and children as young as 12 went to war and some even ruled empires. 

No one that draws Muhammad, is putting him on a shine to worship.
Not even muslims do that, and the rest that arnt of the religion arnt either.


"It is obviously to anger Muslims but Muhammad taught us to be tolerant against hate and not to retaliate."

The dawings are to make fun or joke about terrorists. Its not to offende muslims.
In a free society you have free speach, and you can use it with humor to make fun of people.
Even muhammed can be made fun of, even god, or jesus. It happends often.

Muslims are useing the "you cant put him on the same pedestal as god" excuse, as a reason to go around killing people.
When its clear, thats not what is happending.  Someone draw him as a joke, a punche line, and apparently radical muslims are useing it as a excuse to kill people.

When bad people do bad things, its human nature to shame, or make fun of, or bad jokes about things.
It happends often, its fine to think its bad to do so, but no one is allowed to kill people over it (most countries dont allow people to run around and behead others).

Anyways these muslims that randomly think its fine to kill people in churches, because of a joke drawing, are insane.
Hopefully these sick people burn in hell.... after they spend the rest of their lives in a prison cell.

(not to mention, the church goers, didnt draw him (muhammed), or use the drawing. This is just angry people (terrorists), hurting innocent people)

"But I am angry against Macron because he is stoking flames and causing further hate to be directed towards muslims while he is also causing more Muslims to hate France and the west. He is an idiot."

Eventually someone has to come out and draw a line in the sand.
The line, is muslims randomly attacking and killing innocent people (not even connected to the event).

There is a problem with your religion.
Its not one of peace. Too many modern day muslims are over the top religious fanatics that go around doing crazy shit.

Its a issue. It needs to be addressed.

Sorry but you are just being ignorant and a bigot. Stop conflating all Muslims with terrorists and stop legitimizing the scummy terrorists as the representatives of a religion of about 2 billion people. Even if we accept the overly high number of 100,000 Muslims being terrorists, that's still 0.005% of Muslims. So about 99.995% of Muslims aren't terrorists and you're characterizing all Muslims based on a small minority. If my religion was the issue, it wouldn't e that low of a number.

Now let's say we also include the oppressive leaders that are Muslim and include even the armies of all Muslim nations as being oppressive, which is a stretch to say the least and also include all murderers that are Muslim, how much do you think that will be? At most it's 20 million and that's a huge huge stretch since one stat I looked had total Muslim soliders at 4.6million and that would mean 15.4 million other Muslims are murderers. So anyways, at this huge overexxageration, we stand at a GRAND total of 1%. So even with huge overestimations and being over the board, we get that 99% are peaceful. If you blame the religion based on that, you are just being biased and fooling yourself. 

Now let's say all Muslims that are even a bit abusive like they hit someone once in their life and that number is 400 million which again seems a HUGE overestimation, that's still 20%. So even going too far down the rabbit hole, Islam nor Muslims, which are different entities in a sense, cannot be justified as not being a religion of peace. There isn't a problem with Islam so much as a few sick individuals. Trying to force an issue even based on 20% of the people that follow the religion and not on the scholarly opinion of the religion nor on the majority of Muslims is just to force your own belief on something. I hope this basic demonstration shows how silly Macron and the terrorists and the people with the same opinion of Islam are being with thinking that that's what Islam is.

So instead of listening to terrorists about a religion, listen to the vast majority of people that follow it.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

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Imaginedvl said:
Eagle367 said:

Macron is a big idiot who would be the most stupid leader if it wasn't for Modhi, Imran Khan, Netenyahu, Bolsanaro, Bolsanaro and Trump. Trudeau is smarter than Macron, Merkel is smarter than Macron and the new Zealand PM is most certainly smarter and up there as the most sensible one. Macron is a Jackass

Well. So far I was just reading all of your replies (I prefer not to take part in politic/religion discussion) but this last post is just over the top so here it is and I have to say that I’m writing this while I’m upset so I try to stay civil but the first thing you said was so wrong:

- As you started this in your very first post. Nice attack had nothing to do with the extreme right. And this is a pure lie (and I usually use this word very cautiously) to try to say otherwise, ‘mate’. The attack came from an Islamic extremist (Mohamed Lahouaei-Bouhlel), and while you have the right to believe otherwise or maybe believe in a conspiracy, do not try to spread misinformation by saying it “has been confirmed”. Because no one did and will ever. We know 100% who is responsible for the attack AND the motive (Islamic extremism). And the fact that you are trying to push for this narrative from the start, did not help your cause at all and it probably stopped your posts from being credible to me after that (So I may be biased toward you now, I admit it).

- Regarding Islam in crisis. Many people mentioned this in the thread already, but I also believe the religion is in crisis and your reaction to this while not being as radical as what happened to this poor teacher shows why. The world changed.. A lot in the past decencies and even centuries. Religions did not (plural here) and while SOME of them are adapting, some others are not and you can see it in the majority of the Muslim countries where things are quite different than any developed countries out there and the majority of the way women/people/crimes/’showing a drawing a Mohamed’ is being handled way differently than it would be in France, Canada, USA, etc… You are stuck on insulting Macron for his words post after post while instead you should be looking around you and see what is going on.

- Like the over-reaction to the drawing (obviously killing someone for that is completely out of proportion), Macron said that Islam is in crisis all over the world and he is right. I mean, on what planet are you been living for the past 50 years? The majority of the Mulsim countries are barbaric from the rest of the developed countries. And while some of them are definitely getting better (and also, let’s not forget poverty is not helping their cause) there are not evolving, and they are doing that in the name of Islam. You keep saying that “extremist” is a minority when those countries are representing the majority of the Islam world. And you can see that after the backlash from Macron.

- “Macron is an idiot”. And then you bring Trudeau as being smarter? You are talking out of your ass buddy. You do not like what Macron said and now you are on a crusade and keep saying that he is an idiot, moron etc. Fine, but please do not compare him to other leaders when you clearly do not know anything about them other than what you see on the Internet. I can tell you that being French/Canadian, Trudeau is very very very low in my list.

To end: Someone lost his life for showing a ‘drawing’ buddy. And you are offended because the president of the country that is affected by those terror attacks (and I am talking specifically from Islam extremists) is responding to it with few words? I believe I’m not racist and that I am very tolerant, but I am now part of those who definitely believe that the religion needs a change (call it "reform" if you want) or this will just get worse. And for having lived in France for 20 years (in Paris), I can tell you that you just do not understand the other end of the spectrum (the people at the receiving hand like this teacher). Reforming and changing something does not mean that every Muslim are terrorists but there is definitely something that makes this religion in today's world just prone to bring more extremism (as proven by all those attacks) and this needs to change. 

I would just suggest you read the post above and also learn history and context of politics and why the middle east is the way it is and also learn about islam. Macron should also learn about crisis management and also you should look at how Muslims react to terror attacks by scums like the people that murdered the teacher or the attack in Nice. And yeah I made a mistake on that it was actually the attack somewhere else that was done by the far right.

And that's my point of Macron being an idiot. If you wanna avoid a war between far right loons and people that only find extreme radical stuff in their religions because they are so full of hate. And I know Trudeau is not a good leader but even he is better than Macron. That was my point pal. Macron is a world leader and should choose his words carefully because his words matter. Muslims are reacting with what many displeased people do, through boycott and not by murder. Otherwise you would have bloodshed like never before. Even if 1 Muslim killed half a person, that would be 1 billion people around the world dead. The ridiculousness of claiming Islam is not a religion of peace and in crisis by the behaviour of at most( a ridiculous overexxageration in fact) of 20% of Muslims is just stupid and moronic as all hell. That is why I'm calling Macron an idiot.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Eagle367 said:

I would just suggest you read the post above and also learn history and context of politics and why the middle east is the way it is and also learn about islam.

You do not need to suggest anything, I understand the context of the middle east and why it is how it is there (as much as I could at least) and as you keep calling Macron names, telling me that I need to learn or calling this other guy a "bigot" is not really helping your cause either.

The conversation is about France and other "western" countries where the problem is. And the fact that there is a history and "reason" for those countries to be like that does not make them less barbaric, I'm not even sure why you are telling me to "learn" more about it like this would make it different...
When something like that happens (way too often, and my country has been the target of many of those attacks in the past years (France)).
By crisis, Macron is telling this: The Islamic church needs to step up.

Why is that so offending to you. You keep saying how appealed the Islam church was when this happened in Nice, well guess what, nobody really saw that and that is one of the main issues (not saying it was not true, but the reality is that we just saw little of it from the outside world and this is part of the problem).

Because of those countries that are letting things go barbaric for any reason and when the religion is so intricate within politics, it completely overshadow any good will or act from Islamic leaders over the worlds that are BY FAR in minority at the end.



Imaginedvl said:
Eagle367 said:

I would just suggest you read the post above and also learn history and context of politics and why the middle east is the way it is and also learn about islam.

You do not need to suggest anything, I understand the context of the middle east and why it is how it is there (as much as I could at least) and as you keep calling Macron names, telling me that I need to learn or calling this other guy a "bigot" is not really helping your cause either.

The conversation is about France and other "western" countries where the problem is. And the fact that there is a history and "reason" for those countries to be like that does not make them less barbaric, I'm not even sure why you are telling me to "learn" more about it like this would make it different...
When something like that happens (way too often, and my country has been the target of many of those attacks in the past years (France)).
By crisis, Macron is telling this: The Islamic church needs to step up.

Why is that so offending to you. You keep saying how appealed the Islam church was when this happened in Nice, well guess what, nobody really saw that and that is one of the main issues (not saying it was not true, but the reality is that we just saw little of it from the outside world and this is part of the problem).

Because of those countries that are letting things go barbaric for any reason and when the religion is so intricate within politics, it completely overshadow any good will or act from Islamic leaders over the worlds that are BY FAR in minority at the end.

You keep calling Muslim countries barbaric when the real barbarism is the US starting a war in Iraq that killed a million plus Muslims. You also forget US, Saudi and Pakistan had a hand in creating the Al Qaeda and making them more even open to suicide which is against Islam. You also forget that the most affected people from the scummy terrorists are Muslims. For every attack in France, there are a few dozen to even hundreds in countries like Pakistan. And as I said even with vast overexxageration, only 20% does not a consensus make. Plus I told you to learn because usually knowledge is the best recipe for meaningless hate.

But I am sick and tired of my religion being used by scum for their own goals and also being attacked and used and mischaracterized by bad faith actors in the west while our community suffers the most from these scum acts. Like the west invades us and terrorists also kill us and then our religion is attacked as well. We are the followers of Islam and we know what our religion is, not terrorists or the west. It is not a religion in crisis and we can talk about it ourselves. We don't need white saviours. We define our religion and we are the ones that keep saying terrorists are not right about Islam but you all choose to believe the 0.005% who are scum instead of the 99.995%



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

I'm curious in what context that image of Mohammed was used, and was in a town/city where cultures live seperated from eachother?



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Immersiveunreality said:
I'm curious in what context that image of Mohammed was used, and was in a town/city where cultures live seperated from eachother?

If its the one by charlie hedbo,....  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo

its a cartoon titled : "Mahomet débordé par les intégristes" ("Muhammad overwhelmed by fundamentalists")

it shows a man (who you can assume to be muhammad) saying in a text bubble : "C'est dur d'être aimé par des cons" ("it's hard being loved by jerks").

Basically saying extreme muslims are going against the teachings of muhammed.
Its ment to be harmless and humorous.

It was a small local paper, that only sold like 100,000 copies.
The only reason it made the news (tv/media), was because people didnt expect, anyone to have the balls to do it.
(basically people fear extreme muslims so much, they dont even dare make harmless jokes)

This is the reason there was terrorist attacks, and buildings were bombed, mail bombs were sent, countless death threats ect.
People died because a artist, made use of his freedom of speach in this manner.
And because apparently, alot of muslims have a bad sense of humor (in this reguard) (or dont value freedoms, like freedom of speach).




Eagle367 said:

Sorry but you are just being ignorant and a bigot. Stop conflating all Muslims with terrorists and stop legitimizing the scummy terrorists as the representatives of a religion of about 2 billion people. Even if we accept the overly high number of 100,000 Muslims being terrorists, that's still 0.005% of Muslims. So about 99.995% of Muslims aren't terrorists and you're characterizing all Muslims based on a small minority. If my religion was the issue, it wouldn't e that low of a number.

Now let's say we also include the oppressive leaders that are Muslim and include even the armies of all Muslim nations as being oppressive, which is a stretch to say the least and also include all murderers that are Muslim, how much do you think that will be? At most it's 20 million and that's a huge huge stretch since one stat I looked had total Muslim soliders at 4.6million and that would mean 15.4 million other Muslims are murderers. So anyways, at this huge overexxageration, we stand at a GRAND total of 1%. So even with huge overestimations and being over the board, we get that 99% are peaceful. If you blame the religion based on that, you are just being biased and fooling yourself. 

Now let's say all Muslims that are even a bit abusive like they hit someone once in their life and that number is 400 million which again seems a HUGE overestimation, that's still 20%. So even going too far down the rabbit hole, Islam nor Muslims, which are different entities in a sense, cannot be justified as not being a religion of peace. There isn't a problem with Islam so much as a few sick individuals. Trying to force an issue even based on 20% of the people that follow the religion and not on the scholarly opinion of the religion nor on the majority of Muslims is just to force your own belief on something. I hope this basic demonstration shows how silly Macron and the terrorists and the people with the same opinion of Islam are being with thinking that that's what Islam is.

So instead of listening to terrorists about a religion, listen to the vast majority of people that follow it.

While it is true that it is a very small number of muslims that commit terrorism (though they are vastly overrepresented in this statistic as well), is terrorism or violence the only way extremism can manifest itself?
A survey in the UK, showed that 52 % of muslims in the country believed homosexuality should be illegal, only 18 % believed it should be legal. That's just unacceptable in my opinion, and clearly shows that islam needs to reform:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law



Radical islamists make religion look bad. There are so many great things about religions and religious people.

How sad that people see this and throw all religion away, the baby with the bathwater.

Having said that, appalling is the lack or intelligence displayed by the beheading of a person for showing humiliating drawings of a historical man.



I stand with Macron 100 % on this. Freedom of speech should not be up for discussion in Europe. Meeting a provocative drawing is healthy. If there is any value and strength in your religious views, they should not move you to anger if they get made fun of or get provoced. That's a humiliating, if you think your religion is so weak, that you need violence to protect it.
Islam should absolutely get criticized, as any religion should. And Macron does the right thing in attacking Islam, but not attacking muslims, many of which are good people.

It is nice to see the criticism of Islam moving away from the far rights, Le Pen, AfD, etc, who don't come from a place of good faith, but from hatred.



A great example why you shouldn't give religions any kind of respect in the first place. They will just feel legitimized and demand recognition and protection.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.