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Forums - Politics Discussion - A French teacher beheaded, chaos ensues, EU warns Turkey of sanctions

JWeinCom said:
Eagle367 said:

Islam doesn't have a central organized thing like the papacy. It's very decentralized so there are more so local leaders than global leaders of the entire Muslim community ( not islamic community). But a lot of scholars have condemned these sorts of acts hundreds upon thousands of times. Any legitimate scholar of Islam condemns these acts.

That's a no true Scotsman fallacy. You can't just discount anyone who doesn't condemn it as not representative of Islam.

I don't know if I buy that these people are merely a fringe group. There are currently 16 Islamic countries where blasphemy can be punished by imprisonment or death. I'm not saying all of them would necessarily endorse beheading for drawing Muhammed, but that's a big chunk of the Muslim world where it would be illegal, and it's not surprising that kind of backdrop can foster extremism.

You didn't understand my point. I didn't say that anyone not condemning it is not a true scholar of Islam, I said all true scholars of Islam condemned it because it doesn't fall into any mainstream interpretation of Islam. And to be frank with you, leaders of the Muslim world  aren't the best representatives of Islam because they have a lot of unislamic things going for them. Like in Pakistan, Zia Ul Haq just made laws that sounded like islamic doctrine aka pseudo-shariah to give power and credence to his dictatorship, and the wahabism of Saudi Arabia isn't really an old and accepted mainstream scholarly position. It's a "reform" of Islam. It's new age Islam which isn't that compatible with old Islam. You can check you Sheikh Hammadi as an example of a scholar with knowledge.

And a true scholar has nothing to do with whether they condemn the attacks or not but rather how much knowledge they have of the subject.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

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JRPGfan said:
dark_gh0st_b0y said:

the most basic in Christianity is living like Jesus Christ lived, as close as you can at least since none of us will ever be perfect

so it wasn't Christianity really, but some evil men that took advantage of the church's influence to ensure they remain in control of everything by force

with Islam it's a very different story, Mohammed being the highest human in the faith was a warlord

"Muhammad attacked other groups as well. In 629, Muslims attacked a Jewish settlement in the oasis of Khaybar in Northwestern Arabia. Shortly after the conquest of Mecca, Muhammad received Surah 9:29, which ordered Muslims to fight non-Muslims (including Christians and Jews) until they submit to Islam"
https://www.namb.net/apologetics/resource/historical-muhammad-the-good-bad-downright-ugly/

check the faith map in Africa and the Middle East, where Islam rules no other faith survives, but southern Africa for example is Christian mainly with many other smaller faiths

He also had multiple wives, and married a 12yo.
But apparently hes a holy man, who if you make a depiction of him (a drawing) other muslims will hunt you down and kill you for it.

*Terrorists, not Muslims. Also you don't understand why images of Muhammad aren't allowed. They aren't allowed because Muhammad shouldn't be worshipped like God is worshipped. Not like how Christians worship the image of Christ. So images of Muhammad were forbidden. And Muslims have to follow the example of Muhammad, which is why I don't really give a damn about the stupid drawings. It is obviously to anger Muslims but Muhammad taught us to be tolerant against hate and not to retaliate. Plus it's just the drawing of a random arabic dude since Charlie Hebdo has no idea how Muhammad looked like. The intention was to mock so if you don't react, no one will care to do it again. I do understand why people would be angry though.

But I am angry against Macron because he is stoking flames and causing further hate to be directed towards muslims while he is also causing more Muslims to hate France and the west. He is an idiot.

Regarding multiple wives, there are rules to that and it's restricted to 4 for Muslims but only if you can treat them all fairly so the default is still 1 marriage and it's more or less encouraged. Regarding the age of one of his wives, people of that region at that time reached puberty early and were married off early. Age difference wasn't emphasized as much in the Arab society. His first wife was like 15 years older than him.  This is why the critique of the age of the wives is a modern thing and you can't find such critique from Islam sceptics even a few centuries back. People of the past had no concept of teenage years. It was just kid to adult and children as young as 12 went to war and some even ruled empires. 



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

dark_gh0st_b0y said:
Macron is the world's most sensible leader at the moment

care how you use the word 'religion', you can't put all faiths in a bucket just because you are atheist, it is not religious extremism, it is Islamic extremism

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48146305

https://providencemag.com/2020/04/world-ignoring-christian-genocide-nigeria/

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/new-calls-for-us-sanctions-on-turkey-for-christian-persecution-31519

we have freedom of speech and beliefs in Europe, but I'm sure many Christians are now scared to go to church, I am scared to go to church, and this is not something that is supposed to happen in today's 'forward moving' Europe

Macron is a big idiot who would be the most stupid leader if it wasn't for Modhi, Imran Khan, Netenyahu, Bolsanaro, Bolsanaro and Trump. Trudeau is smarter than Macron, Merkel is smarter than Macron and the new Zealand PM is most certainly smarter and up there as the most sensible one. Macron is a Jackass



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

TheBraveGallade said:
To be completly fair, Ataturk would be rolling in his grave at the state of turkey right now.
after he worked so hard to make turkey a secular country...

100%. I knew an Iranian who I worked with who used to praise what Turkey did and said he wish Iran did the same at the time, but it did not and hence why he ended up a refuge in my country. Wonder what he would think now on the subject




 

 

Eagle367 said:
JRPGfan said:

He also had multiple wives, and married a 12yo.
But apparently hes a holy man, who if you make a depiction of him (a drawing) other muslims will hunt you down and kill you for it.

*Terrorists, not Muslims. Also you don't understand why images of Muhammad aren't allowed. They aren't allowed because Muhammad shouldn't be worshipped like God is worshipped. Not like how Christians worship the image of Christ. So images of Muhammad were forbidden. And Muslims have to follow the example of Muhammad, which is why I don't really give a damn about the stupid drawings. It is obviously to anger Muslims but Muhammad taught us to be tolerant against hate and not to retaliate. Plus it's just the drawing of a random arabic dude since Charlie Hebdo has no idea how Muhammad looked like. The intention was to mock so if you don't react, no one will care to do it again. I do understand why people would be angry though.

But I am angry against Macron because he is stoking flames and causing further hate to be directed towards muslims while he is also causing more Muslims to hate France and the west. He is an idiot.

Regarding multiple wives, there are rules to that and it's restricted to 4 for Muslims but only if you can treat them all fairly so the default is still 1 marriage and it's more or less encouraged. Regarding the age of one of his wives, people of that region at that time reached puberty early and were married off early. Age difference wasn't emphasized as much in the Arab society. His first wife was like 15 years older than him.  This is why the critique of the age of the wives is a modern thing and you can't find such critique from Islam sceptics even a few centuries back. People of the past had no concept of teenage years. It was just kid to adult and children as young as 12 went to war and some even ruled empires. 

No one that draws Muhammad, is putting him on a shine to worship.
Not even muslims do that, and the rest that arnt of the religion arnt either.


"It is obviously to anger Muslims but Muhammad taught us to be tolerant against hate and not to retaliate."

The dawings are to make fun or joke about terrorists. Its not to offende muslims.
In a free society you have free speach, and you can use it with humor to make fun of people.
Even muhammed can be made fun of, even god, or jesus. It happends often.

Muslims are useing the "you cant put him on the same pedestal as god" excuse, as a reason to go around killing people.
When its clear, thats not what is happending.  Someone draw him as a joke, a punche line, and apparently radical muslims are useing it as a excuse to kill people.

When bad people do bad things, its human nature to shame, or make fun of, or bad jokes about things.
It happends often, its fine to think its bad to do so, but no one is allowed to kill people over it (most countries dont allow people to run around and behead others).

Anyways these muslims that randomly think its fine to kill people in churches, because of a joke drawing, are insane.
Hopefully these sick people burn in hell.... after they spend the rest of their lives in a prison cell.

(not to mention, the church goers, didnt draw him (muhammed), or use the drawing. This is just angry people (terrorists), hurting innocent people)

"But I am angry against Macron because he is stoking flames and causing further hate to be directed towards muslims while he is also causing more Muslims to hate France and the west. He is an idiot."

Eventually someone has to come out and draw a line in the sand.
The line, is muslims randomly attacking and killing innocent people (not even connected to the event).

There is a problem with your religion.
Its not one of peace. Too many modern day muslims are over the top religious fanatics that go around doing crazy shit.

Its a issue. It needs to be addressed.

Last edited by JRPGfan - on 01 November 2020

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The attacks are very sad to hear, horrific, but why make these cartoons/depictions in the first place since it's guaranteed to cause anger and tension?



Also why aren't the Muslim countries (looking at you Saudi) talking about China's Uyghur camps?



TheLegendaryBigBoss said:
The attacks are very sad to hear, horrific, but why make these cartoons/depictions in the first place since it's guaranteed to cause anger and tension?

Because your free to choose to do so.
Its a freedom, your allowed in alot of the world.

The freedom to speak or say, or joke about things you want to.
If you want to draw muhammed, as a joke, to make fun of terrorists your allowed to do so.

Its human nature, to shame or make fun of bad people.
Or to try and make a bad situation seem less bad, by useing humor.

So there are jokes, that depict muhammed.
Cartoons if you will.

"why make these cartoons"

Because muslims are a small minority in alot of these countries.
They shouldnt be allowed to force us to change our ways, or to use fear to make us change.

Alot of democracies beleive freedom of speach is as much a right, as say freedom of religion.

If you cannot make jokes about muhammed.
Next maybe you cannot practis free legion either? If you start removeing freedoms, its not unthinkable.

This is what happended in china.
Chinese goverment think some muslims are tooo insane in their thinking.

They kidnap these people and force them into "re-educational schools" (prisons).
Or just outright kill them.

This is what muslim terrorists want.
They want a relgion war, so they can die in a holy war, thinking they go to heaven.
So they are provokeing other nations that arnt majority muslims, by killing people there.
These drawings of muhammed are just a excuse, to go kill people.

All it takes is another Hilter, that hates muslims (instead of jews) and we have a new world war, with a cleanseing of muslims from the western world.



TheLegendaryBigBoss said:
Also why aren't the Muslim countries (looking at you Saudi) talking about China's Uyghur camps?

Because some muslim countries do the same (mainly in africa).
They kill and cleanse these countries of other relgions (primarly targeting christians).

Basically they do much worse than china does.
Atleast china mainly allows them to live.



Eagle367 said:

Macron is a big idiot who would be the most stupid leader if it wasn't for Modhi, Imran Khan, Netenyahu, Bolsanaro, Bolsanaro and Trump. Trudeau is smarter than Macron, Merkel is smarter than Macron and the new Zealand PM is most certainly smarter and up there as the most sensible one. Macron is a Jackass

Well. So far I was just reading all of your replies (I prefer not to take part in politic/religion discussion) but this last post is just over the top so here it is and I have to say that I’m writing this while I’m upset so I try to stay civil but the first thing you said was so wrong:

- As you started this in your very first post. Nice attack had nothing to do with the extreme right. And this is a pure lie (and I usually use this word very cautiously) to try to say otherwise, ‘mate’. The attack came from an Islamic extremist (Mohamed Lahouaei-Bouhlel), and while you have the right to believe otherwise or maybe believe in a conspiracy, do not try to spread misinformation by saying it “has been confirmed”. Because no one did and will ever. We know 100% who is responsible for the attack AND the motive (Islamic extremism). And the fact that you are trying to push for this narrative from the start, did not help your cause at all and it probably stopped your posts from being credible to me after that (So I may be biased against you now, I admit it).

- Regarding Islam in crisis. Many people mentioned this in the thread already, but I also believe the religion is in crisis and your reaction to this while not being as radical as what happened to this poor teacher shows why. The world changed.. A lot in the past decencies and even centuries. Religions did not (plural here) and while SOME of them are adapting, some others are not and you can see it in the majority of the Muslim countries where things are quite different than any developed countries out there and the majority of the way women/people/crimes/’showing a drawing a Mohamed’ is being handled way differently than it would be in France, Canada, USA, etc… You are stuck on insulting Macron for his words post after post while instead you should be looking around you and see what is going on.

- Like the over-reaction to the drawing (obviously killing someone for that is completely out of proportion), Macron said that Islam is in crisis all over the world and he is right. I mean, on what planet are you been living for the past 50 years? The majority of the Mulsim countries are barbaric from the rest of the developed countries. And while some of them are definitely getting better (and also, let’s not forget poverty is not helping their cause) there are not evolving, and they are doing that in the name of Islam. You keep saying that “extremist” is a minority when those countries are representing the majority of the Islam world. And you can see that after the backlash from Macron.

- “Macron is an idiot”. And then you bring Trudeau as being smarter? You are talking out of your ass buddy. You do not like what Macron said and now you are on a crusade and keep saying that he is an idiot, moron etc. Fine, but please do not compare him to other leaders when you clearly do not know anything about them other than what you see on the Internet. I can tell you that being French/Canadian, Trudeau is very very very low in my list.

To end: Someone lost his life for showing a ‘drawing’ buddy. And you are offended because the president of the country that is affected by those terror attacks (and I am talking specifically from Islam extremists) is responding to it with few words? I believe I’m not racist and that I am very tolerant, but I am now part of those who definitely believe that the religion needs a change (call it "reform" if you want) or this will just get worse. And for having lived in France for 20 years (in Paris), I can tell you that you just do not understand the other end of the spectrum (the people at the receiving hand like this teacher). Reforming and changing something does not mean that every Muslim are terrorists but there is definitely something that makes this religion in today's world just prone to bring more extremism (as proven by all those attacks) and this needs to change. 

Last edited by Imaginedvl - on 01 November 2020