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Forums - Nintendo - Why did the Gamecube fail?

RolStoppable said:

The main reasons are a combination of weak first party output and the console being built on the false premise that third party multiplatform games are important. After the Nintendo 64 had failed, Nintendo's main takeaway from it was that it is about third party software, so the GC was designed accordingly. It wasn't until a generation later that Nintendo recognized that it is about Nintendo themselves and what they stand for, so the Wii was designed accordingly. Then they learned nothing from the Wii and made it about third party multiplatform games again with the Wii U, a console that failed even harder than the GC. Then we got Switch which has the distinct Nintendo identity again. There's a clear pattern of success and failure, including the NES and SNES which weren't about third party multiplatform games either.

I would strongly disagree with that. The only thing that was conducive to third-party support on the GameCube were the specs. The GCN was the second-most capable console of the sixth generation. And the N64 had been the most capable of the fifth. This was the last generation Nintendo was competitive in specs for home consoles.

The processing power, RAM, etc. were good for third-party developers. But Nintendo threw tons of hurdles in their way. Namely, Mini DVDs that crippled the size of games. Though admittedly, it was not as bad as using cartridges for the N64. Someone else said on this thread that the average PS2 game was about 3 GB. That's 2 GameCube discs. And most developers didn't want to deal with 2 discs, or they had to compress the game to fit it on one or two discs.

The GameCube controller was also not conducive to third-party games. There was only one bumper, no dedicated select button, an oversized A button/undersized X, B, Y buttons, and an undersized second analog stick.

And online on GameCube was virtually non-existent. That was a big slap in the face to third-party developers, especially as online console gaming was really picking up around 2002-2005.

Nintendo learned very few lessons from the N64 to GCN on designing their consoles for third-parties to take advantage of.



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RolStoppable said:

The main reasons are a combination of weak first party output and the console being built on the false premise that third party multiplatform games are important. After the Nintendo 64 had failed, Nintendo's main takeaway from it was that it is about third party software, so the GC was designed accordingly. It wasn't until a generation later that Nintendo recognized that it is about Nintendo themselves and what they stand for, so the Wii was designed accordingly. Then they learned nothing from the Wii and made it about third party multiplatform games again with the Wii U, a console that failed even harder than the GC. Then we got Switch which has the distinct Nintendo identity again. There's a clear pattern of success and failure, including the NES and SNES which weren't about third party multiplatform games either.

Nowadays there's the widespread belief that Sony and Microsoft make traditional (or conventional) consoles while Nintendo is the odd one out. This belief has it backwards, because it's Nintendo who makes the traditional console. Sony and Microsoft consoles are about playing PC games on a device that is easier to use than a PC. When you think of the classic video game consoles made by Atari, Nintendo and Sega, are PC games the first thing that comes to your mind? Of course not, because the traditional console isn't about playing PC games. The essence of the traditional console is bringing the arcade experience into people's homes, and the arcade experience differed from the PC experience in that all the games were standing next to each other and had to be instantly good, otherwise potential customers would just walk over to the next arcade cabinet. This is what led to the "easy to learn, hard to master" mantra.

Consoles did evolve over the first few generations, from housing mostly ports of arcade games to eventually being more about games specifically developed for consoles. But said games followed the arcade mantra of "easy to learn, hard to master" which is why they maintained their addictive essence. Whenever you come across a game that shoves a lot of tutorials down your throat, it's easy to realize that said game isn't what it should be about. When you think about it like that, you can put two and two together why third party multiplats are at odds with what the market expects from a Nintendo console and why those multiplats barely move the needle on hardware sales for Nintendo.

The Nintendo 64 focused on 3D games, and early 3D games feel clunky and stiff in comparison to the brilliant fluidity of the gameplay in the 16-bit era. Super Mario 64 may have been the foundation for a lot of 3D gaming, but it pales in comparison to how good SNES games were. Nintendo's direction with first party software did more damage to the Nintendo 64 than the loss of third party IPs to Sony's PS1. Nintendo fans skipped the Nintendo 64 because Nintendo wasn't making the right games anymore. Then with the GC Nintendo didn't even cater to the expectations of the fans of the 3D games anymore (most notably, Super Mario Sunshine and The Wind Waker were controversial), so many of those fans skipped the GC. Nintendo went from bad to worse.

The GC had around 600 games, up from the around 400 of the Nintendo 64, but third party software mattered little for sales because most of those games could be bought elsewhere on top of coming first and foremost from American and European publishers whose roots are largely in PC gaming.

And here’s a man who understands relativity. A very good assessment of the industry. This is why I’ve always called the GameCube out as Nintendo’s oddest console, because it’s the only one that really comes off as a clonebox - although there are some differences. It’s incorrect to call it standard if Nintendo’s previous evolutionary/revolutionary efforts are to be understood as standard. Saying the stuff after GameCube is not standard is changing the narrative Nintendo has followed in the 80s and 90s.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

Wman1996 said:
RolStoppable said:

The main reasons are a combination of weak first party output and the console being built on the false premise that third party multiplatform games are important. After the Nintendo 64 had failed, Nintendo's main takeaway from it was that it is about third party software, so the GC was designed accordingly. It wasn't until a generation later that Nintendo recognized that it is about Nintendo themselves and what they stand for, so the Wii was designed accordingly. Then they learned nothing from the Wii and made it about third party multiplatform games again with the Wii U, a console that failed even harder than the GC. Then we got Switch which has the distinct Nintendo identity again. There's a clear pattern of success and failure, including the NES and SNES which weren't about third party multiplatform games either.

I would strongly disagree with that. The only thing that was conducive to third-party support on the GameCube were the specs. The GCN was the second-most capable console of the sixth generation. And the N64 had been the most capable of the fifth. This was the last generation Nintendo was competitive in specs for home consoles.

The processing power, RAM, etc. were good for third-party developers. But Nintendo threw tons of hurdles in their way. Namely, Mini DVDs that crippled the size of games. Though admittedly, it was not as bad as using cartridges for the N64. Someone else said on this thread that the average PS2 game was about 3 GB. That's 2 GameCube discs. And most developers didn't want to deal with 2 discs, or they had to compress the game to fit it on one or two discs.

The GameCube controller was also not conducive to third-party games. There was only one bumper, no dedicated select button, an oversized A button/undersized X, B, Y buttons, and an undersized second analog stick.

And online on GameCube was virtually non-existent. That was a big slap in the face to third-party developers, especially as online console gaming was really picking up around 2002-2005.

Nintendo learned very few lessons from the N64 to GCN on designing their consoles for third-parties to take advantage of.

N64 was powerful but difficult to work on aside from cart space. I don't have the time to dig up old magazines but I do know Miyamoto apologized publicly for N64's difficulty to work on and Gamecube was made to make it easier on 3rd parties. Thing is, Nintendo is still Nintendo in being clueless at times. So they had small discs. An odd controller and while Dreamcast,Xbox opted for Direct X. PS2 with OpenGL. Nintendo made their own API. GX, which they used all the way up to Wii U. Switch is the first console I know of from Nintendo that uses a standard API.



Bite my shiny metal cockpit!

Leynos said:

N64 was powerful but difficult to work on aside from cart space. I don't have the time to dig up old magazines but I do know Miyamoto apologized publicly for N64's difficulty to work on and Gamecube was made to make it easier on 3rd parties. Thing is, Nintendo is still Nintendo in being clueless at times. So they had small discs. An odd controller and while Dreamcast,Xbox opted for Direct X. PS2 with OpenGL. Nintendo made their own API. GX, which they used all the way up to Wii U. Switch is the first console I know of from Nintendo that uses a standard API.

Didn’t Nintendo also say once that they made N64 difficult to work with on purpose to discourage “bad” developers from making games for it so the overal quality would be higher on average? Or is this just my headcanon. Didn’t work either way because Superman 64 was released...



Otter said:
kirby007 said:

the wind waker?

You must have forgotten the huge backlash it got when Nintendo revealed it. It alientated a fair portion of the fanbase with the artstyle. Its easy to think of 3D Zelda as this ever morphing visual entity at this point but back in 2001, all 3D Zelda games had been suedo realistic and dark/surrealist. Suddenly you have "toon link" being presented as the future of the franchise. WW sales on Gamecube speak for itself. 

A pity really. Toon Link became my favorite with that game and remains so to this day. 



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RolStoppable said:
SammyGiireal said:

The N64 had some of the greatest 3-D experiences ever made, they were even more mind blowing at the time of their release. This is the reason why it sold as well as it did despite its total lack of 3rd party support, and the absence of some of the most popular genres of the time such as JRPGs, and Fighting games.

Nintendo dug the N64's grave when they decided to go cartridge instead of CD, and drove away its third party support. The system however had some of the most revolutionary games ever made, and to deny this, is to deny facts.

You should address what I said. It doesn't matter if the Nintendo 64 had revolutionary games when it's abundantly clear in hindsight that the Nintendo 64's best games aren't on the same level as the likes of Super Mario World, Donkey Kong Country trilogy, A Link to the Past and Super Metroid. Game quality was higher on the SNES than on the Nintendo 64.

Something that cannot be mentioned often enough is that the biggest factor in the shift of third party support in the fifth generation was not cartridges vs. CDs, but no moneyhats vs. aggressive moneyhats. If the Nintendo 64 had used CDs, third party games would have gone to the PS1 all the same because Sony was paying for them.

Wman1996 said:

I would strongly disagree with that. The only thing that was conducive to third-party support on the GameCube were the specs. The GCN was the second-most capable console of the sixth generation. And the N64 had been the most capable of the fifth. This was the last generation Nintendo was competitive in specs for home consoles.

The processing power, RAM, etc. were good for third-party developers. But Nintendo threw tons of hurdles in their way. Namely, Mini DVDs that crippled the size of games. Though admittedly, it was not as bad as using cartridges for the N64. Someone else said on this thread that the average PS2 game was about 3 GB. That's 2 GameCube discs. And most developers didn't want to deal with 2 discs, or they had to compress the game to fit it on one or two discs.

The GameCube controller was also not conducive to third-party games. There was only one bumper, no dedicated select button, an oversized A button/undersized X, B, Y buttons, and an undersized second analog stick.

And online on GameCube was virtually non-existent. That was a big slap in the face to third-party developers, especially as online console gaming was really picking up around 2002-2005.

Nintendo learned very few lessons from the N64 to GCN on designing their consoles for third-parties to take advantage of.

People keep having this habit of sticking up for bad third party developers. Whenever a third party pulls off some bullshit due to incompetence or laziness, way too many people choose to blame Nintendo for the result rather than the companies that actually made the games. There's real world data that it was doable for third parties to make high quality GC games, because there were third parties who could do it.

That's why the storage capacity of the GC's discs can't be an excuse. That's why the amount of buttons on the GC controller wasn't a big issue because most games didn't need so many buttons to begin with. Online gaming wasn't a big deal during the sixth generation either.

What you are doing here is the equivalent of sticking up for WWE 2k18 on Switch by coming up with all possible excuses.

"The game has a partial download because Nintendo chose an expensive storage medium." - Somehow not a problem for The Witcher 3.

When you judge a console, you do so by its best games, not its worst. It's bad enough that third parties have a long history of pulling off bullshit on Nintendo consoles, but it's even worse for gamers to defend said bullshit when there's actual evidence of what was really possible.

Mario 64, Ocarina of Time, and Majora's Mask to name a few ...disagree with your take.  I have more fun with those games today than I do when replaying the SNES games, and need I remind you that OoT got the highest ever Meta rating, a record that still stands today. Back in 1998 all of those critics had played ALttP and other SNES games.

Sorry, but the N64 had some of the greatest games ever made, and Cartridges were the primordial reason for 3rs parties abandoning Nintendo. Sony did offer the devs better royalties. But Nintendo wanted devs and third party publisher to shell out 1 mill for 100,000 cartridges. If your game didnt sell you were left in a bad spot. The investment required in making an N64 games was much riskier because of this.

People wanted 3-D in the mid nineties, and people wanted the Nintendo 64 the system had record sales that were driven by Mario 64 ( people wanted a 3-D Mario), and only slowed down because of the draught in games and their price.



Gamecube really had a crisis of identity; on the one hand it tried to woo the "hardcore" gamer with powerful graphics and games like Rogue Squadron, RE4 and Metroid Prime, but on the other it looked like a child's toy and many of its marquee games exacerbated this childish image.

As a platform it was a confused mess with no clear idea of what it was all about.

Last edited by curl-6 - on 10 October 2020

Soundwave said:

Nobody knew what the fuck a "third party game" was in the NES era, lol. That wasn't a thing. All games were just "Nintendo games" and even all video games were just called "Nintendo" even if you were playing a Tiger handheld or something.

This may be an age thing.  I definitely knew what a third party game was during the NES era.  After a year or so, I knew to always look for Konami and Capcom, because they had the good games, and I should avoid LJN.  The term "Konami Code" came from the NES era.  Plenty of people knew who Konami was.

The biggest reason that every game was a "Nintendo game" was that we called the system itself a "Nintendo".  The first time I'd ever heard NES or SNES, outside of an advertisement, was on the internet.  Normal people, in the US, just called the systems "Nintendo" and "Super Nintendo".

IcaroRibeiro said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

I think you and Rol are both partly right.  Third party games were definitely important on the SNES, but not quite as important on the NES.  This is because Nintendo's resources on the SNES were split between it and the Gameboy.  The NES had a lot more first party games than the SNES did.  Nintendo first party games were still the most important ones on the SNES, but third party games picked up a lot of the slack. 

It's also due to the market being more limited with fewer studios and development being more restricted (remember in America NES was released after console gaming crash), fewer quality titles came out from 3rd party during NES/Master System era

Nintendo put heavy restrictions on third party companies, but there were still a ton of third party games on the NES.  That included plenty of quality games.  Nintendo just plain published a lot more games on the NES.  However, the other factor is that Nintendo was pioneering new genres and styles of games on the NES (e.g. the first Metroidvania).  On the SNES, they mostly just upgraded their already successful series, and it was third party developers that were innovating in bigger ways.

I just looked at the top 20 for both systems as listed by Wikipedia.  Here are the third party games in the NES top 20.  All other games are published by Nintendo.

11. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
12. Dragon Quest 3
15. Dragon Quest 4

Here are the third party games in the SNES top 20.

5. Street Fighter 2: The World Warrior
9. Street Fighter 2 Turbo: Hyper Fighting
11. Final Fantasy 6
12. Dragon Quest 6
16. Dragon Quest 5
17. Final Fantasy 5
20. Chrono Trigger

So NES had 3 third party games in the top 20.  SNES had 7.  Nintendo games are still the most important on both systems, but Nintendo has almost all of the top selling games on the NES.  On the SNES third party games had a more important supporting role.  Nintendo published games were still the most important games though even on the SNES.

The other thing is that, with the exception of Ninja Turtles, every game on these lists is either a RPG or Fighting Game.  Nintendo didn't make any really popular RPGs or Fighting Games.  Third parties were innovating more on the SNES.  For people who really liked fighting games or RPGs, the third party games were actually the main draw.  On the NES, platformers and action-adventure games were a big draw, but Mario and Zelda were the best.  You'd play the third party games after you got tired of Mario and Zelda and wanted to move onto something else.

To bring this back to the thread topic, the Gamecube only had 4 third party games in it's top 20.  That makes it more like the NES in that Nintendo had to do almost all of the work selling their system.  I know there are games there that people really like, but nothing of the popularity of NES Mario.  Mario on the NES was like Minecraft is today.  Mario games were the most popular games by far during the late 80s/early 90s.  On the Gamecube, Nintendo was not making the most popular games at the time.  Rockstar was making the most popular games at that time.  That's the simple reason why the Gamecube wasn't successful.  

Nintendo has the ability to make ultra popular games that become huge cultural phenomena.  Just look at what Animal Crossing is doing right now, or what Wii Sports did on the Wii.  It didn't make any game like this on the Gamecube, and that is why it wasn't so successful.  On the NES, Mario was a huge cultural phemonenon like Wii Sports or Minecraft or some other mega huge game.

Last edited by The_Liquid_Laser - on 10 October 2020

Mario 64 is an all-time classic and the most inspirational 3D game ever made. Yet,it's not the best Mario game.



Bite my shiny metal cockpit!

Leynos said:
Mario 64 is an all-time classic and the most inspirational 3D game ever made. Yet,it's not the best Mario game.

It's all in the eye of the beholder.  I think Mario 64 is trash.  It's the worst of the 3D Mario games, and on top of that I like 2D Mario a lot better than 3D Mario.  Sales numbers say I am far from alone on this last point.  2D Mario sells a lot better than 3D Mario.