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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Xbox Series X/S expandable storage is expensive....

 

Will you be buying this storage?

Yes 10 20.83%
 
No 38 79.17%
 
Total:48

Pemalite said:

eva01beserk said:

Na you missed much more. Its why I said wach the presentation cuz I wont be able to explain as well but Ill give it a shot.

Let's cut through some of the bullshit here.

eva01beserk said:

Like the 4 extra PCIE4.0 lanes straight from the apu to the SSD


* The Playstation 5 has 4x PCI-E 4.0 lanes to the SSD. Not 8. It's identical to the Xbox Series X on this front.

eva01beserk said:

allowing it to skip the ram, the xbox has no such things.

* The Xbox Series X SSD can bypass Ram and stream data direct from SSD to the APU as well.

eva01beserk said:

having 12 chanel memory vs the xbox 8 or 4(we still dont know, its most likely 8).

* The memory channel count is ultimately redundant, it's just a silly marketing point and you fell for it. - You have two ways to you can increase bandwidth, faster memory chips or more memory chips. - Sony took the "more memory chips" route to solving the bandwidth problem.

eva01beserk said:

The soc dedicted to handle data wich the ps5 has an equivalent of 9 ryzen cores while the xbox has a 4 cores equivalent.

Absolute rubbish.
The Xbox Series X has hardware accellerated compression/decompression.

No. The fixed function blocks that aid this are *not* equivalent to a Ryzen CPU core... They are fixed function, not flexible x86 processing cores.

eva01beserk said:

Cerny mentioned that there are other bottlenecks that limit data transfer speed so hdd's and sdd's dont run at their full speed all the time and the ps5 has hardware and software for that. The xbox only has sotware.

There are certainly a ton of bottlenecks that can limit data transfer rates such as scheduling for example.

I would advise you not to "hang onto" every single utter word that Cerny murmurs... And there is a good reason for that. - Cerny is a paid employee of Sony and thus he has a conflict of interesting in inflating, supporting and big-noting his company and the products he is trying to sell.


Same goes for Phil Spencer and whoever is Nintendo's equivalent.


And no. Xbox doesn't only "have software". - The Xbox series X, like the Playstation 5 features hardware accelerated decompression/compression, which is also aided by software.
The companies might "brand" their approaches differently, but they share very similar concepts fundamentally, even if Sony's definitely has the performance edge.

eva01beserk said:

but its much more than the 5.5 vs 2.4 raw speed.

That is exactly what the difference is.

eva01beserk said:

And I think we saw  a bit of this on the start up comparisons they have both made, the xbox had games start in like 4x the speed of the previous gen wich was like 12s vs 54s, while the ps5 was instant almost. under 2 sec wich was just the button presses and the fade to black between inmages. it was insane. But again, thouse where diferent games we might need to wait untill the same games are compared to really see.

The Xbox may be doing other tasks in the background, there are far to many variables like different operating systems, api's and so forth for one.
Undoubtedly the Playstation 5 has the bandwidth edge on it's storage and that will translate to load times and other nuanced differences.

However, the SSD is still dog-awfully slow compared to Ram.

Like I said, im not the best to be explaining or debating this topic as I would just be repeting what someone else said. Make more sese to debate the guy on the video. 

The ssd being used as ram sounds dubious and I only claim that others are speculating about it. I never said That I belive that to be the case But I do belive that the ps5 will save a lot more of its ram for graphics than the xbox.

I hihghly doubt that the xbox had stuff runing in the background in thouse vids they themself put up. They are gona try to make the best example possible theres no way they will screw up like that. Still, they where diferent games, I still say untill the same game is compared theres no real comparison to be made.

I looked into the direct storage and I never claimed the ps5 had 4 extra PCIE4 lanes, I said it had 4 PCIE4 lanes and the xbox has none.  What xbox claims as direct storege is an API solution but that again is more software. But again I could be wrong I just could not find any mention.

Never claimed the "equivalent cores" are actually cores. Its in the very word "equivalent". Its ovbious what I meant its that it does the work of that, but it can only do that and its not flexible.

The more memory channel thing might be null, cant say that I know much for sure. But I dint get that from cerny, that again is from the video I linked and seemed resonable. 

Something I also forgot to mentioned was the 6 priority levels. But thats something I quite dont get much. All I get is that normal storage has 2. Maybe you can expand on that. 



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

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eva01beserk said:

I looked into the direct storage and I never claimed the ps5 had 4 extra PCIE4 lanes, I said it had 4 PCIE4 lanes ...

You wrote, PS5-SSD has "4 extra PCIE4.0 lanes"... extra is suggesting 4 more than the standard.

eva01beserk said:

... and the xbox has none.  What xbox claims as direct storege is an API solution but that again is more software.

Both the internal and the external Xbox-SSDs have PCIE4 lanes directly to the APU:

https://www.windowscentral.com/xbox-series-x-nvme-ssd-explained

Beyond loading speeds, though, Microsoft is developing new methods developers can leverage to utilize the SSD to reduce CPU overheads. Using what Microsoft is calling DirectStorage, developers on Xbox Series X (and soon, PC, as part of DirectX), developers can offload asset streaming CPU operations to the SSD, reducing the load on the CPU by a large amount. Microsoft describes it as follows.

"DirectStorage is an all new I/O system designed specifically for gaming to unleash the full performance of the SSD and hardware decompression. It is one of the components that comprise the Xbox Velocity Architecture. Modern games perform asset streaming in the background to continuously load the next parts of the world while you play, and DirectStorage can reduce the CPU overhead for these I/O operations from multiple cores to taking just a small fraction of a single core; thereby freeing considerable CPU power for the game to spend on areas like better physics or more NPCs in a scene. This newest member of the DirectX family is being introduced with Xbox Series X and we plan to bring it to Windows as well."

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-inside-xbox-series-x-full-specs

On the hardware level, the custom NVMe drive is very, very different to any other kind of SSD you've seen before. It's shorter, for starters, presenting more like a memory card of old. It's also rather heavy, likely down to the solid metal construction that acts as a heat sink that was to handle silicon that consumes 3.8 watts of power. Many PC SSDs 'fade' in performance terms as they heat up - and similar to the CPU and GPU clocks, this simply wasn't acceptable to Microsoft, who believe that consistent performance across the board is a must for the design of their consoles.

The form factor is cute, the 2.4GB/s of guaranteed throughput is impressive, but it's the software APIs and custom hardware built into the SoC ...

"Our second component is a high-speed hardware decompression block that can deliver over 6GB/s," reveals Andrew Goossen. "This is a dedicated silicon block that offloads decompression work from the CPU and is matched to the SSD so that decompression is never a bottleneck. The decompression hardware supports Zlib for general data and a new compression [system] called BCPack that is tailored to the GPU textures that typically comprise the vast majority of a game's package size."



Conina said:
eva01beserk said:

I looked into the direct storage and I never claimed the ps5 had 4 extra PCIE4 lanes, I said it had 4 PCIE4 lanes ...

You wrote, PS5-SSD has "4 extra PCIE4.0 lanes"... extra is suggesting 4 more than the standard.

eva01beserk said:

... and the xbox has none.  What xbox claims as direct storege is an API solution but that again is more software.

Both the internal and the external Xbox-SSDs have PCIE4 lanes directly to the APU:

https://www.windowscentral.com/xbox-series-x-nvme-ssd-explained

Beyond loading speeds, though, Microsoft is developing new methods developers can leverage to utilize the SSD to reduce CPU overheads. Using what Microsoft is calling DirectStorage, developers on Xbox Series X (and soon, PC, as part of DirectX), developers can offload asset streaming CPU operations to the SSD, reducing the load on the CPU by a large amount. Microsoft describes it as follows.

"DirectStorage is an all new I/O system designed specifically for gaming to unleash the full performance of the SSD and hardware decompression. It is one of the components that comprise the Xbox Velocity Architecture. Modern games perform asset streaming in the background to continuously load the next parts of the world while you play, and DirectStorage can reduce the CPU overhead for these I/O operations from multiple cores to taking just a small fraction of a single core; thereby freeing considerable CPU power for the game to spend on areas like better physics or more NPCs in a scene. This newest member of the DirectX family is being introduced with Xbox Series X and we plan to bring it to Windows as well."

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-inside-xbox-series-x-full-specs

On the hardware level, the custom NVMe drive is very, very different to any other kind of SSD you've seen before. It's shorter, for starters, presenting more like a memory card of old. It's also rather heavy, likely down to the solid metal construction that acts as a heat sink that was to handle silicon that consumes 3.8 watts of power. Many PC SSDs 'fade' in performance terms as they heat up - and similar to the CPU and GPU clocks, this simply wasn't acceptable to Microsoft, who believe that consistent performance across the board is a must for the design of their consoles.

The form factor is cute, the 2.4GB/s of guaranteed throughput is impressive, but it's the software APIs and custom hardware built into the SoC ...

"Our second component is a high-speed hardware decompression block that can deliver over 6GB/s," reveals Andrew Goossen. "This is a dedicated silicon block that offloads decompression work from the CPU and is matched to the SSD so that decompression is never a bottleneck. The decompression hardware supports Zlib for general data and a new compression [system] called BCPack that is tailored to the GPU textures that typically comprise the vast majority of a game's package size."

Yea I looked back I did write extra lanes. That's my mistake. Still from What you posted it dosent specify the sdd has the 4 lanes skiping the ram. The pictures imply it. But the text still says its part of direct x.



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

kirby007 said:

Wrong on all accounts, this is not what Kaz Hirai told me

Prove it.

eva01beserk said:

Like I said, im not the best to be explaining or debating this topic as I would just be repeting what someone else said. Make more sese to debate the guy on the video. 

That is fine.

eva01beserk said:

The ssd being used as ram sounds dubious and I only claim that others are speculating about it. I never said That I belive that to be the case But I do belive that the ps5 will save a lot more of its ram for graphics than the xbox.

We have been using SSD's and HDD's as "Ram" going back decades.
Heck, even the Original Xbox did it... It was called a "Swap File" or "Virtual Space".

It was essentially an extension to the DRAM memory space to allow developers more "breathing room". - It never replaced Ram, it couldn't, it wasn't fast enough... Just like the Playstation 5's SSD.

But it does "extend" your memory, which was the entire point of the Swap File's existence in the first place, to allow developers a larger "scratch pad" when they ran out of Ram... And the next-gen consoles are Ram limited, 16GB will be tiny by the end of the console generation.

eva01beserk said:

I hihghly doubt that the xbox had stuff runing in the background in thouse vids they themself put up. They are gona try to make the best example possible theres no way they will screw up like that. Still, they where diferent games, I still say untill the same game is compared theres no real comparison to be made.

I am not saying it does or doesn't. I am saying we simply "don't know".
The Xbox Series X and Playstation 5 are using entirely different software stacks, API's and so forth, it's not going to be Apples to Apples until we get an independent source to do direct comparisons empirically.

eva01beserk said:

I looked into the direct storage and I never claimed the ps5 had 4 extra PCIE4 lanes, I said it had 4 PCIE4 lanes and the xbox has none.  What xbox claims as direct storege is an API solution but that again is more software. But again I could be wrong I just could not find any mention.

The Xbox Series X has 4x PCI-E lanes. It's actually identical to the Playstation 5 on this front.
Microsoft's approach isn't just software.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-inside-xbox-series-x-full-specs

And I quote:
"Our second component is a high-speed hardware decompression block that can deliver over 6GB/s," reveals Andrew Goossen. "This is a dedicated silicon block that offloads decompression work from the CPU and is matched to the SSD so that decompression is never a bottleneck. The decompression hardware supports Zlib for general data and a new compression [system] called BCPack that is tailored to the GPU textures that typically comprise the vast majority of a game's package size."

eva01beserk said:

Never claimed the "equivalent cores" are actually cores. Its in the very word "equivalent". Its ovbious what I meant its that it does the work of that, but it can only do that and its not flexible.

Fixed function blocks are extremely efficient, because they are designed for singular task, which is why we use them in the computing sector.
Ryzen cores are just very different and definitely more powerful and flexible.

But normally we would spend an inordinate amount of CPU cycles doing decompression work, often because SIMD instructions aren't being leveraged fully, sometimes because there is a bottleneck in the code path or something else entirely.

eva01beserk said:

The more memory channel thing might be null, cant say that I know much for sure. But I dint get that from cerny, that again is from the video I linked and seemed resonable. 

The Playstation 5 does have more memory channels, but again, it's a redundant dot point and on it's own... Useless.

For example... You can have an 8x 32bit memory controller for a graphics card with it's Ram running at 1Ghz.
Or you can have a 4x 32bit memory controller for a graphics card with it's Ram running at 2Ghz.

They will provide identical bandwidth.

eva01beserk said:

Something I also forgot to mentioned was the 6 priority levels. But thats something I quite dont get much. All I get is that normal storage has 2. Maybe you can expand on that. 

Basically data can be prioritized based on urgency.

SSD controllers already have such technology, it's just not as finely grained or intuitive to leverage, what it means for gaming though, I am keen to see.
If it doesn't provide much in the way of real-world tangible benefits just like the extra ACE units in the Playstation 4, then it probably won't be adopted industry wide.

It's one of those things I need to see demonstrated by an independent source before I start proclaiming it's benefits.

eva01beserk said:

Yea I looked back I did write extra lanes. That's my mistake. Still from What you posted it dosent specify the sdd has the 4 lanes skiping the ram. The pictures imply it. But the text still says its part of direct x.

Direct X is running on top of it all.
Sony has it's own API doing the same thing in essence.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

I think the fact Epic re-wrote Unreal code to fully optimize for PS5 I/O controller is interesting and makes it accessible to everybody using Unreal.
As Cerny mentioned real benefits of SSD speeds don't linearly follow nominal speed, I see the same or equivalent approaches gaining traction
in PC space for I/O controllers, no sense trying to sell 4x faster SSD if there are other bottlenecks, so either Sony's own implementation or
compatible or similar approaches could become more common, making optimizing for those a common thing for high performance target games.

People posting here about stuff they clearly don't have the slightest general understanding of (4x PCIe lanes etc) is just not beneficial to discussion,
It makes person who brought it up ignorantly look stupid and doesn't really further their point, even if the think citing random factoids helps them.
If you're not really fully engaging in those technical elements, just don't bother, state your opinion in terms that are real for you, it comes off better.



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vivster said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

*Raises Hand*

I even had an external 2TB HDD connected to my Wii U because I easily get bored with a game and need to switch out out for another one. I'm juggling 2 128GB SD Cards on my Switch. I have an external 4 TB HDD to my Laptop for my games. Keep in mind I'm mostly playing indie Games which don't use that much space. I just need to switch games often, and to do so, I need enough space for all of them to fit.

So, while I won't buy an Xbox anytime soon (what's the point if you have a gaming PC?), having more space is always useful.

Also, I expect that games grow quite a bit over next gen. Bigger resolutions and bigger screens will also need bigger, more detailed textures, which certainly will bump up the space a notch or two. Add to that the Raytracing, and a 500GB SSD like in the Series S might fill up very quickly in a couple years

So what you are saying is you don't actually need that much space. Dowloading games is fast enough to start the download before you want to play it.

500GB will be plenty for anyone. Any more is luxury, not necessity.

retro gaming. 15 years from now when the online service is dead, can still play your games.



 

 

DroidKnight said:
I will be buying 1 for each game I purchase, and I will make custom game cases for each of them to treat them as game cartridges. I can't decide if I'm going with gold or platinum for my custom casing.

I dont know if yo joking but I considered it lol. Was hoping they had a smaller say 128gb and 256gb options lol



 

 

Cobretti2 said:
DroidKnight said:
I will be buying 1 for each game I purchase, and I will make custom game cases for each of them to treat them as game cartridges. I can't decide if I'm going with gold or platinum for my custom casing.

I dont know if yo joking but I considered it lol. Was hoping they had a smaller say 128gb and 256gb options lol

Permalite mentioned degradation in the files stored on it while just sitting there.  I looked it up and he's right, you could start losing that info in 5 years, so not a good long term solution.  Probably would need some way of doing it like Nintendo cartridges.



...to avoid getting banned for inactivity, I may have to resort to comments that are of a lower overall quality and or beneath my moral standards.

RolStoppable said:
Today Microsoft lost me as a customer.

It's Ok the endless cycle of being lost and then gained, means they will still have you 50% of the time and since the cyclic nature of Rol being a MS customer is so quick it means they don't have to worry about lawsuits when  the inevitable day comes when Nintendo registers Rolstoppable as an IP.

Last edited by mjk45 - on 26 September 2020

DroidKnight said:
Cobretti2 said:

I dont know if yo joking but I considered it lol. Was hoping they had a smaller say 128gb and 256gb options lol

Permalite mentioned degradation in the files stored on it while just sitting there.  I looked it up and he's right, you could start losing that info in 5 years, so not a good long term solution.  Probably would need some way of doing it like Nintendo cartridges.

SO whats the best way to backup your games (well mainly all the shitty patches and addns)