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Forums - Politics Discussion - Is it true that Americans are to this day afraid of socialism?

Just a response to the nonsense people saying: Nazism = National Socialism = therefore socialism

This is a combination of a loss in translation thing and people just completely ignoring history.

* Socialism is a leftist economic system that advocates for workers to control their own means of production.
* Nazism is not a form of socialism, but rather a form of extreme fascism, and is a far right totalitarian ideology that advocates the superiority of the Aryan master race and employs extremist nationalistic Social Darwinism to justify the enslavement and extermination of genetic unwanteds. The driving motivation is that through the mastery of the Aryans, economic and cultural prosperity would come to the third German Dominion.

It is a myth that Nazism took its name from socialism. The German Nationalsozialismus is named for the ideology of Staatssozialismus, a right-wing anti-socialist ideology devised by Bismarck in order to protect/preserve the capitalist order and outlawed many of the elements and methods of socialism and social democracy alike (including things such as outlawing pro-socialist publications, banning unions, and banning socialist symbols; the SPD was all but banned). Nazism, as stated above, evolved into a different, and far more sinister (and antisemitic), ideology.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

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Eagle367 said:
Some of the takes on this thread are so bad and so full of propaganda and bad takes that I don't know where to start to reply to them. I will say though that the US has socialism already. It has corporate socialism. Socialize the losses and privatize the profits. Get an oligarchy in the guise of "free market" Capitalism when there's no such thing as a "free market."

It's interesting, because you're going to get blasted by both socialists and capitalists with this statement. The US is not socialist, yes, it benefits rich people. but that's what capitalism does, it's an inherently unequal economic situation. I don't see how a stateless capitalist system would ever happen because the state uses laws and a police force/military to maintain legitimacy.



 

Jumpin said:

Just a response to the nonsense people saying: Nazism = National Socialism = therefore socialism

This is a combination of a loss in translation thing and people just completely ignoring history.

* Socialism is a leftist economic system that advocates for workers to control their own means of production.
* Nazism is not a form of socialism, but rather a form of extreme fascism, and is a far right totalitarian ideology that advocates the superiority of the Aryan master race and employs extremist nationalistic Social Darwinism to justify the enslavement and extermination of genetic unwanteds. The driving motivation is that through the mastery of the Aryans, economic and cultural prosperity would come to the third German Dominion.

It is a myth that Nazism took its name from socialism. The German Nationalsozialismus is named for the ideology of Staatssozialismus, a right-wing anti-socialist ideology devised by Bismarck in order to protect/preserve the capitalist order and outlawed many of the elements and methods of socialism and social democracy alike (including things such as outlawing pro-socialist publications, banning unions, and banning socialist symbols; the SPD was all but banned). Nazism, as stated above, evolved into a different, and far more sinister (and antisemitic), ideology.

I wonder if the people who say that Nazis were socialist would agree that North Korea is democratic because the name of the country is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. It's not democratic, nor is it really a republic as it's essentially a monarchy in its current form.



 

It all depends how far you take it.

Education and health. Infrastructure like electricity roads water. Financial support for old people and people with disabilities. Then that is great.

Distributing wealth because your money is given to some lazy bum who actively promotes they don't ant to work and would rather be at the beach all day then fuck no.



 

 

JRPGfan said:
Dante9 said:
Everybody should be afraid of socialism, it has a tendency to turn nations into tyrannical dystopias if taken to its fullest expression.
Government funded health systems in themselves are a good thing for the people, as long as the overarching economy remains capitalistic. This kind of system is very costly, however, and it cannot be sustained without heavy taxation.

So can captalism.

Look at Trump, he doesnt fear the law in the US anymore, he thinks himself above the law,
and basically proves it by being able to break it and get away with it.

Trump is useing populism & nationalism, and racism, to win elections.
He keeps a book on hilters speeches by his bedside (said his ex-wife).
He mirrors alot of slogan and talking points Hilter did.... and he won the presidency.

Hes managed to replace alot of the people, who are in place, as safety guards to put a check on a presidents powers.
With alot of "yes people" that'll just nod at everything he does.

Is the US about to become a facist dictatorship?
I dont think so, yet.... however its strikeing the parrallels to hilter, and the america people, much like the germans at the time, dont see the danger.

"Government funded health systems in themselves are a good thing for the people, as long as the overarching economy remains capitalistic. This kind of system is very costly, however, and it cannot be sustained without heavy taxation."

The USA spends more on health, than nations that do have "goverment funded health systems".
You guys already use enough money on healthcare, you could give everyone in the US such and save money doing so.
Are you guys currently under "heavy taxation" ?  You just have a very ineffecient and expensive health care system.

The question remains then? why is it so expensive and ineffecient in the US?
Maybe theres a better solution? that say... other nations used that works better?

I'm actually from Finland, so I know what I'm talking about. I don't know about you guys in Denmark, but at least we over here have pretty hefty taxation across the board and still our bloated welfare costs seem to be dependent on constantly taking on more public debt.



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Hiku said:
Dante9 said:
Everybody should be afraid of socialism, it has a tendency to turn nations into tyrannical dystopias if taken to its fullest expression.
Government funded health systems in themselves are a good thing for the people, as long as the overarching economy remains capitalistic. This kind of system is very costly, however, and it cannot be sustained without heavy taxation.

Don't take my word for it, go ask the good people of most third world dictatorships how they like their socialism. Venezuela being the latest experiment.

economics21.org/how-socialism-destroyed-venezuela



Dante9 said:
JRPGfan said:

So can captalism.

Look at Trump, he doesnt fear the law in the US anymore, he thinks himself above the law,
and basically proves it by being able to break it and get away with it.

Trump is useing populism & nationalism, and racism, to win elections.
He keeps a book on hilters speeches by his bedside (said his ex-wife).
He mirrors alot of slogan and talking points Hilter did.... and he won the presidency.

Hes managed to replace alot of the people, who are in place, as safety guards to put a check on a presidents powers.
With alot of "yes people" that'll just nod at everything he does.

Is the US about to become a facist dictatorship?
I dont think so, yet.... however its strikeing the parrallels to hilter, and the america people, much like the germans at the time, dont see the danger.

"Government funded health systems in themselves are a good thing for the people, as long as the overarching economy remains capitalistic. This kind of system is very costly, however, and it cannot be sustained without heavy taxation."

The USA spends more on health, than nations that do have "goverment funded health systems".
You guys already use enough money on healthcare, you could give everyone in the US such and save money doing so.
Are you guys currently under "heavy taxation" ?  You just have a very ineffecient and expensive health care system.

The question remains then? why is it so expensive and ineffecient in the US?
Maybe theres a better solution? that say... other nations used that works better?

I'm actually from Finland, so I know what I'm talking about. I don't know about you guys in Denmark, but at least we over here have pretty hefty taxation across the board and still our bloated welfare costs seem to be dependent on constantly taking on more public debt. *this part is factually untrue.

Denmark was basically debt free (minor debt) and it wasnt really growing, but shrinking, before all this covid19 stuff.
Now its ofc grown alot, its the cheapest and most effective way (in the long run) to deal with coronavirus. Spend to protect from a collapse, and allow people to actually follow through with a shut down.

I just looked at finlands data, back in 2010, you guys basically had little to no debt either.
You did something wrong politically, and your debt grew, upto 2015.
Who was in power from say ~2005-2015 ? one of those parties has to have done something (lowered taxes? or large spending?)

From 2016-> 2020, finlands debt was shrinking at slow rate, but shrinking.
So you guys obviously can afford it, and were doing so for along time, without adding debt.

Supposedly Denmarks Debt is ~34% of BNP, Swedens is ~38%, and finlands is 59%.
USA as a exsample has a debt of ~107% (before this covid19 stuff).

High taxation rates in finland:

€13,000 25%
€33,000 57%
€47,000

60%

Thats probably like 80% of people in finland, and they pay 25-60% tax.

In denmark I think we have a "tax ceiling" that max's out at like 52%, so even the most wealthy dont pay that high tax (ei. 60%+).

Last edited by JRPGfan - on 18 July 2020

YukikoAmagi said:
Eagle367 said:
Some of the takes on this thread are so bad and so full of propaganda and bad takes that I don't know where to start to reply to them. I will say though that the US has socialism already. It has corporate socialism. Socialize the losses and privatize the profits. Get an oligarchy in the guise of "free market" Capitalism when there's no such thing as a "free market."

It's interesting, because you're going to get blasted by both socialists and capitalists with this statement. The US is not socialist, yes, it benefits rich people. but that's what capitalism does, it's an inherently unequal economic situation. I don't see how a stateless capitalist system would ever happen because the state uses laws and a police force/military to maintain legitimacy.

I said what I said. It's not real socialism and it is socializing the losses while privatizing the gains for the wealthy. That is what we call corporate Socialism. There's another word called chroney capitalism but that is describing a different aspect of the same broken system. The all encompassing term for the current US is an oligarchy or a plutocracy.



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SpokenTruth said:

Sorry for the triple post but this comic sums up the the issue regarding socialism for many US citizens.

There is such a clear lack of decent education is the US,i blame the capitalist system for that.

In the land of the free you are only as free the more money you earn and everything that should be humane is draining you whenever you stumble,it is rewarding to have power and money but not wisdom.

People put themselves in the stereotype that is the most earning to them and they stick with it.

Last edited by Immersiveunreality - on 18 July 2020

Eagle367 said:
Immersiveunreality said:

It is interesting that Lucifer was one of Gods highest tier servants,like at the very top.

I myself am not really attached to a religion but i often ask questions about its content(i talk about it often with a friend who is a priest) so in this case i would like to know if you have considered the motive for God to keep this servant at his side while he as God himself must have known the path Lucifer was going to walk?

I don't know about the Christian Lucifer but the Islamic Shaytan(The Broken One) or Azazeel, as was his name, is a lesson in humility. He was born out of special fire as all djinns were and he prayed so much that he attained special rank among the top angels.

But when God created Adam and told all angels to bow down, Azazeel refused because he was made of fire and Adam clay so why would fire bow down to clay? He refused God's command out of pure arrogance and he never repented or try to make amends. Instead he asked God to make him stat alive until Judgement Day so he can keep leading humans astray as a way to show how inferior they are and how easily they can be persuaded to do evil. He accepted rotting in the deepest pits of hell for that.

In islamic values, arrogance is such a big sin that it;s held contrary to faith itself aka its opposite. That's the lesson to be learnt from Satan. The biggest sin after associating partners with God is arrogance itself. 

It's one of the most important lessons in Islam as to how humans should behave. The best humans and Muslims are humble, and don't boast nor do they think themselves better than everyone else. Even if you don't believe in Islam, you can still learn from the story of Satan and not repeat his mistakes because arrogance is such an ugly thing and can destroy the best of creation. Everything we build up for our entire existence can get ruined by arrogance

Thanks for this interesting lesson,i did not know that Islam and Christianity were so different on that core aspect and i just always boiled it down to different prophets with different importance.

I always wanted to read the Quran to be a bit more understanding of the religion but i keep stalling it.