Forums - Movies Discussion - RUMOR - A NEW Hope - Decanonization of the sequels possible

Should Lucasfilm decanonize the sequels

Yes 22 50.00%
 
No 19 43.18%
 
On the fence 3 6.82%
 
Total:44
padib said:
Hiku said:

I think that would at least be more interesting than just changing Palpatine's fall, but my trust in how Disney would handle the series even without time travel is not high.

I remember people were similarly upset with the prequels as well when George Lucas first made them. So I'm not sure that input from the man that decided to sell the franchise is necessarily going to improve much. If he cared half as much about the direction of the series as the fans do, I don't imagine he would have sold it.

It's not true. He cared, he said so. He considers them his babies, and mentioned that (and was forced to apologize after) that he felt that he sold them off to the white slavers.

He cares as much about it as the fans if not more, and that's why he's coming back to take care of it, because they did such a horrendous job with it. Even despite mentioning what he did about how you deal with an ex: you don't call, you don't check up on her, you don't pass by her house. But because they so disrespected his legacy in an unexpected way, he's coming back.

What I mean is, he didn't seem to care enough to keep creative control. It's easy to talk afterwards, especially if they didn't turn out in a way people wanted.
And fans often care a lot more than the creators. To an unhealthy degree even. Lucas can't answer questions in interviews about the lore that fans commonly can. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but he didn't strike me as particularly enthusiastic about the world he created.

Him wanting to work on new films is just a rumor though, isn't it? You said it with certainty, so I'm unsure.

Though it wouldn't be surprising if it happened since they seemingly did something similar when they booted Rian Johnsson and had JJ come back.

padib said:

It was said, but can't be proven due to Lucas' contract with Disney (non-disparaging clause), that he hated TLJ, and Mark Hammil mentioned that they ruined peoples' childhoods. It was a joke, but I Think he meant it, given how uncomfortable he was with the whole thing. He had to tell himself that it was not Luke Skywalker, but someone else, I think he called him Jake Skywalker.

The prequels were disliked by the fans because they didn't reach the level of quality of the originals. It's a small sin. The sequels were hated because they insulted the originals in many ways, it's on a whole other level it's incomparable.

At a distance, you could chalk up the reception of the sequels as not reaching the height of the originals as well. But people's specific complaints about both the sequels and prequels are of course more nuanced than that. (Though personally I don't think anything comes close to how they messed up Luke in 7-8).



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Hiku said:

What I mean is, he didn't seem to care enough to keep creative control. It's easy to talk afterwards, especially if they didn't turn out in a way people wanted.
And fans often care a lot more than the creators. To an unhealthy degree even. Lucas can't answer questions in interviews about the lore that fans commonly can. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but he didn't strike me as particularly enthusiastic about the world he created.

Him wanting to work on new films is just a rumor though, isn't it? You said it with certainty, so I'm unsure.

Though it wouldn't be surprising if it happened since they seemingly did something similar when they booted Rian Johnsson and had JJ come back.

He said they're his babies, he loves Star Wars deeply. He gave up creative control because he felt unfit to continue the sequels after what happened with the prequels and felt confident that Disney would do them justice given how they treated their prior acquisitions, and their money power. But it turned out to be a complete disaster, to the point that he decided to "get back with his X" to fix things. I'm using his own metaphores.

It's not that it's easy to talk afterwards, the situation was aweful. The fans care, and it's not unhealthy at all. Thanks to them, Disney has decided to wake up and fix their problem. Thankfully the fans are there, and after this, I am certain that if another prequel situation happens again, they will thank Disney with glee that they fixed things. Because the sequel situation and the prequel situation are two different beasts, and the gap is huge. If they fixed the situation to a prequel level of quality, fans will be thankful.

Everything is rumor right now, but some rumors are more substantiated than others. I would say with high confidence that:

  • Kathleen Kennedy is out the door after she's done with her current work
  • John Favreau will be taking care of any mainline star wars movie coming up
  • George Lucas will be working closely with John Favreau as he did with the Clone Wars.

This is coming from reporters who are close to the sources.

Hiku said:

At a distance, you could chalk up the reception of the sequels as not reaching the height of the originals as well. But people's specific complaints about both the sequels and prequels are of course more nuanced than that. (Though personally I don't think anything comes close to how they messed up Luke in 7-8).

Exactly. The sequels were so bad, they destroyed their whole toy business, which if you heard Lucas, was his bread and butter.



padib said:
Hiku said:

At a distance, you could chalk up the reception of the sequels as not reaching the height of the originals as well. But people's specific complaints about both the sequels and prequels are of course more nuanced than that. (Though personally I don't think anything comes close to how they messed up Luke in 7-8).

Exactly. The sequels were so bad, they destroyed their whole toy business, which if you heard Lucas, was his bread and butter.

Yeah, the toy sales have been dreadful in the Disney era. In the past they were consistent strong sellers, growing up I couldn't walk into a department store like Walmart or Kmart without finding most of an aisle of the toy department dedicated to Star Wars toys, with tons of kids on the aisle; me and my brother probably bought over 100 star wars figures plus several other star wars toys in the mid-late 90's and early 2000's. Under the Disney era though, Star Wars is just a single section of a single shelf at my Walmart. Meanwhile I went into a close-out store in December, and they had a whole aisle of Disney era Star Wars toys that they were still having trouble selling at half off. While the Disney films have been doing well at the box office (Solo aside), Star Wars always made more money from merch than from the films in the past, so merch sales being down is bad for sure. 

It's not much of a wonder that there have been so many rumors about Bob Iger and Bob Chapek being angry at Kathleen Kennedy, she's basically been strangling the golden goose that is Star Wars for the past 6 years. I won't be surprised at all if they replace her as head of LucasFilm when her contract expires in 2021, it's rumored they only renewed it for 3 years in 2018 because they couldn't find anyone else who was willing to take on Star Wars after the damage the sequel trilogy did to the brand. But now that The Mandalorian and Clone Wars season 7 have repaired some of the damage to the brand, it might be easier for them to find a replacement.

Who they replace her with is the question. I'd be down for either Job Favreau or Dave Filoni personally, they hit it out of the park with The Mandalorian and Clone Wars season 7, they both seem to know what classic George Lucas Star Wars fans like. But if the Bob's want someone with more business experience than Jon or Dave, I'm not sure who the best person for the job would be. There have been some rumors that Disney wants to take an MCU approach with Star Wars films in the future, so maybe they will move Kevin Feige over to Star Wars.

Last edited by shikamaru317 - on 12 July 2020

padib said:
Hiku said:

What I mean is, he didn't seem to care enough to keep creative control. It's easy to talk afterwards, especially if they didn't turn out in a way people wanted.
And fans often care a lot more than the creators. To an unhealthy degree even. Lucas can't answer questions in interviews about the lore that fans commonly can. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but he didn't strike me as particularly enthusiastic about the world he created.

Him wanting to work on new films is just a rumor though, isn't it? You said it with certainty, so I'm unsure.

Though it wouldn't be surprising if it happened since they seemingly did something similar when they booted Rian Johnsson and had JJ come back.

He said they're his babies, he loves Star Wars deeply. He gave up creative control because he felt unfit to continue the sequels after what happened with the prequels and felt confident that Disney would do them justice given how they treated their prior acquisitions, and their money power. But it turned out to be a complete disaster, to the point that he decided to "get back with his X" to fix things. I'm using his own metaphores.

It's not that it's easy to talk afterwards, the situation was aweful. The fans care, and it's not unhealthy at all. Thanks to them, Disney has decided to wake up and fix their problem. Thankfully the fans are there, and after this, I am certain that if another prequel situation happens again, they will thank Disney with glee that they fixed things. Because the sequel situation and the prequel situation are two different beasts, and the gap is huge. If they fixed the situation to a prequel level of quality, fans will be thankful.

Everything is rumor right now, but some rumors are more substantiated than others. I would say with high confidence that:

  • Kathleen Kennedy is out the door after she's done with her current work
  • John Favreau will be taking care of any mainline star wars movie coming up
  • George Lucas will be working closely with John Favreau as he did with the Clone Wars.

This is coming from reporters who are close to the sources.

Hiku said:

At a distance, you could chalk up the reception of the sequels as not reaching the height of the originals as well. But people's specific complaints about both the sequels and prequels are of course more nuanced than that. (Though personally I don't think anything comes close to how they messed up Luke in 7-8).

Exactly. The sequels were so bad, they destroyed their whole toy business, which if you heard Lucas, was his bread and butter.

I think that may just be a theory of why he sold it to Disney. In his own words it appears to be primarily because he wanted Star Wars to live on beyond his lifespan, and wanted to set up the transition while he is still alive and able. He was 68 years old when he penned the deal.

“I felt that I really wanted to put the company somewhere in a larger entity which could protect it. Disney is a huge corporation. They have all kinds of capabilities and facilities, so that there’s a lot of strength that is gained by this…I’m doing this so that the films will have a longer life, and so that more fans and people can enjoy them in the future. It’s a very big universe I’ve created and there are a lot of stories that are sitting in there.”

"For the past 35 years, one of my greatest pleasures has been to see Star Wars passed from one generation to the next. It’s now time for me to pass Star Wars on to a new generation of filmmakers. I’ve always believed that Star Wars could live beyond me, and I thought it was important to set up the transition during my lifetime."

It's easier to criticize how someone else is handling it, if you don't put yourself in the line of fire. Is he willing to potentially do worse than Rian Johnsson? If he really passed off the series due to criticism over the prequels then maybe not.



Hiku said:

I think that may just be a theory of why he sold it to Disney. In his own words it appears to be primarily because he wanted Star Wars to live on beyond his lifespan, and wanted to set up the transition while he is still alive and able. He was 68 years old when he penned the deal.

“I felt that I really wanted to put the company somewhere in a larger entity which could protect it. Disney is a huge corporation. They have all kinds of capabilities and facilities, so that there’s a lot of strength that is gained by this…I’m doing this so that the films will have a longer life, and so that more fans and people can enjoy them in the future. It’s a very big universe I’ve created and there are a lot of stories that are sitting in there.”

"For the past 35 years, one of my greatest pleasures has been to see Star Wars passed from one generation to the next. It’s now time for me to pass Star Wars on to a new generation of filmmakers. I’ve always believed that Star Wars could live beyond me, and I thought it was important to set up the transition during my lifetime."

It's easier to criticize how someone else is handling it, if you don't put yourself in the line of fire. Is he willing to potentially do worse than Rian Johnsson? If he really passed off the series due to criticism over the prequels then maybe not.

I think we agree on George's motives for the sale. But Disney didn't uphold their side and hurt his legacy.

He was more than ready to let go, like he mentioned in many interviews, but what they did was vandalizing his legacy. I don't think he expected that, and now that it happened there are strong rumors that he wants to step in and fix what was done. It's not really about it being easy to criticize work that is based on creative choice, it's about protecting something that was damaged. It's very different.



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padib said:
Hiku said:

I think that may just be a theory of why he sold it to Disney. In his own words it appears to be primarily because he wanted Star Wars to live on beyond his lifespan, and wanted to set up the transition while he is still alive and able. He was 68 years old when he penned the deal.

“I felt that I really wanted to put the company somewhere in a larger entity which could protect it. Disney is a huge corporation. They have all kinds of capabilities and facilities, so that there’s a lot of strength that is gained by this…I’m doing this so that the films will have a longer life, and so that more fans and people can enjoy them in the future. It’s a very big universe I’ve created and there are a lot of stories that are sitting in there.”

"For the past 35 years, one of my greatest pleasures has been to see Star Wars passed from one generation to the next. It’s now time for me to pass Star Wars on to a new generation of filmmakers. I’ve always believed that Star Wars could live beyond me, and I thought it was important to set up the transition during my lifetime."

It's easier to criticize how someone else is handling it, if you don't put yourself in the line of fire. Is he willing to potentially do worse than Rian Johnsson? If he really passed off the series due to criticism over the prequels then maybe not.

I think we agree on George's motives for the sale. But Disney didn't uphold their side and hurt his legacy.

He was more than ready to let go, like he mentioned in many interviews, but what they did was vandalizing his legacy. I don't think he expected that, and now that it happened there are strong rumors that he wants to step in and fix what was done. It's not really about it being easy to criticize work that is based on creative choice, it's about protecting something that was damaged. It's very different.

I was also under the impression that he didn't want to work on it due to reactions from the prequels. But if it is as he says here, that he just wanted to ensure that it lives on after his passing, then I have no particular reason to doubt his motivations for working on them again.



NightlyPoe said:
super_etecoon said:

Jake Lloyd was an absolutely atrocious Anakin (Haley Joel Osment post-Sixth Sense would have made a much darker and better character...and it would have kept his career afloat)

That would require some time travel considering that The Sixth Sense came out months after The Phantom Menace and was filmed over a year later.

Talk about an anachronistic fail on my part.  You're absolutely right.  I was working at a video store at the time and I do remember having many conversations with customers at the time about that having been a possibility, but of course this was well after the release of both films and I just remember feeling like Lucas had lost an opportunity.  But whether Osment would have been ready the full year and a half before release, or whether he had even been known is quite debatable as you point out.

I still stand by my opinion, however, that Osment would have been a much better casting choice.



Sorry what's decanonize?



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StokedUp said:
Sorry what's decanonize?

Essentially it would mean that as a Star Wars viewer you would basically forget these films existed.  They would not be part of the official lore.  The bible, for instance, has had many books removed from it over time, and they are no longer part of the official canon of the bible and therefore aren't included in the King James version of the bible.  They still were at one point in time part of the original text, but time (or voting) has removed them from what would be considered "official."  Sorry to use such a significant piece of history or literature as my example, but you can see then the power that decanonization can have on history, even for something as far reaching as a religious testament.



Nothing pleases me more than seeing Dave Filoni continue to gain influence at LucasFilm, while Kathleen's upcoming projects are continually being sidetracked by Disney.