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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Phil Spencer confident after seeing PS5 presentation - Gamelab 2020 interview

 

How do you think MS will perform at the July presentation?

MS will be in a league of its own 5 6.25%
 
MS will do better than the PS5 presentation 14 17.50%
 
MS will do as good as the PS5 presentation 13 16.25%
 
MS will do less well than... 48 60.00%
 
Total:80
SvennoJ on 02 July 2020
padib said:

Remember though, Xbox's clearly strongest market is NA. So, if the adoption rate is ~50% there, and these of the 50% are actually the same as those who are expected to upgrade their Xbox, then having 4K ready from the get-go is the farthest thing from overkill, it's actually perfectly logical.

As for the distance to screen size ratio, what your post tells me is that this graphical race on consoles, unless you're gaming on anything greater than 65", will not help you see details that are only truly visible in 4k, such as vellus hairs or the insane density of polygons that the new consoles will offer. So, it is overkill to offer such power in consoles when only on PCs are we sitting right in from of the screen, or with VR like you mentioned. But I doubt that's really what you meant to imply. Show me that you can harmonize these two contrasting implications, I'd be very interested to hear your take.

As for VR, I'm pretty sure the adoption rate for VR is even much lower than 4k, internationally.

Resolution and graphical fidelity are two different things. Have you watched Baraka and Samsara on blu-ray? It's 'only' 1080p yet downsampled from 8K scans of the 70mm negatives and remastered in 4K before getting downsampled to 1080p. The result looks amazing, despite it's displayed in 1080p.

For games rending in 8K (aka supersampling) to display in 1080p is rather overkill, there are better techniques (much more efficient with close to the same results) to get to the same end result. Anyway what I'm getting at, we're no where near the limit of graphical fidelity (and stability) for 1080p resolution. Then there's still tons of improvements to be had in lighting, draw distance, interactivity, physics.

Tlou pt 2 runs at 1440p, apparently I'm already sitting too far away for that. I couldn't figure out why the game wouldn't accept the code I was typing in on the keypad. I couldn't see the numbers very well from the couch and assumed it was 123 456 789 like on a phone / remote control. However it was 789 456 123 as on a keyboard. (Never realized before that was different) I had to get up and walk to the screen to see what I was doing wrong. (Had more to do with low contrast of the scene, but one of those things that developers need to take into account when designing games, a simple zoom option would have sufficed)

Sorry, getting side tracked. Visual fidelity isn't tied to resolution. 1080p games still don't look anywhere near 70mm movies remastered for blu-ray. Rendering 2.25x more pixels (native 4K vs 1440p) just for the sake of rendering more pixels is a waste imo. Get the graphical fidelity to match 1080p/1440p first.

Let consoles push graphical fidelity, while PC provides the room to scale those games up to 4K/8K 120/144/240 fps.

I could see the immense detail of that Unreal tech demo on my 1080p screen perfectly fine. Looked amazing.



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goopy20 on 02 July 2020
zero129 said:
goopy20 said:

I'm not expecting a jump from ps2 to ps3 either but yes, a obvious leap in visual fidelity and scope is what I'm expecting. The HZD2 trailer didn't show a whole lot of clear gameplay, but just the fact that the world now seems to have a lot more variation/detail and a giant lake with an underwater city to explore is already something we didn't see in part 1.

Faster loading times will obviously be convenient but its not the main reason why Sony set a hard target for their 5GB throughput. Sony believes the SSD will be key to next gen as it allows not just faster loading, it allows for 2GB of assets to be streamed from the SSD in the time it takes to turn your in-game character (about 0,25 secs). That is why you will be able to jump in that lake in HZD2 and see underwater levels with that kind of detail without any loading screen, and how Ratchet & Clank pulled off those crazy dimensional jump scenes. Those were just glimpses of what to come, but I'm sure we will see a lot more before the ps5 launches.

We all have different expectations but to me, a complete shift in level/world design sounds pretty exciting and definitely something I would call a generational jump over current gen. Whereas 4k/60fps and faster loading is also cool, but not something that will truly feel like a generational leap imo.   

Except your getting excited over sequels to games that play the exact same as their old versions only looking better.

And then your telling MS fans "Dont get excited if Halo Inf or the next forza just looks better" . Talk about double standards with you..

I don't have double standards, I'm just trying to explain the difference between better overall graphics and better graphics settings. You could say RDR2 plays the same as RDR1. But there is still a generational leap in overall fidelity and core game design between those two games. That's something different entirely than playing Gears 5 on a Xone and on a pc in ultra settings. Obviously, ultra settings will run and look a ton better. But at its core it's still the exact same game.

But hey, maybe we should just wait till July. Maybe Halo Inf will have complete features and levels missing in the Xone version and it will impress the hell out of me yet. What I've been hearing from MS I just have my doubts, though. From my understanding of the "optimized for Series X" badge it will be the same core game on all platforms where the base Xone version will be running it in 720p/30fps, 4k/30fps on X1X and the Series X version will be 4k/60fps with ray tracing and shorter loading times. 

If you're okay with that then good for you. MAybe I'm just one of those people that Phil was referring too when he said some might be disappointed.



sales2099 on 02 July 2020
DonFerrari said:
sales2099 said:

I’ll complain, doesn’t mean I’ll boycott ;) I’ll do what I can to minimize my monetary contribution even if it means waiting for bargain bin pricing. Or waiting till it hits Game Pass years later and knock it out within a week. 

Why would you complain of having a better graphical quality? The game will be output to your TV in 4k (and even if it wasn't the TV will upscale it) and with a higher quality than if it was rendered natively at 4k.

It’s sentences like that that make me want to actually understand the tech on a deeper level. Guess we’ll see on a case by case basis. 



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

Angelus on 02 July 2020
goopy20 said:
padib said:

Guys, let's please keep it civil.

About the question of generational leap, the interview shows that the delta will be smaller regarding visual performances and regarding what we will be able to do graphically this gen versus last gen, relative to the jump from 2D to 3D and then moving forward in history. Phil says that this may be depressing to some, in the condition that they don't understand the next paragraph.

The small differences we will see will now melt the 4th wall, and increase the immersion, making games life-like. This is anything but depressing. The improvements that increase the immersion, per Phil, are:
- High framerate
- Low input latency
- Drastically reduced load times
- Increased storyteller (dev) empowerment, probably via the dev tools and new HW capabilities
- I'll personally add here the non-specified but obvious gain in graphical performance that MS invested a lot of R&D money into, so I'll let the money talk on this point. Even if the delta is small to Phil, it's still a delta.

This comes from video 9:15 - 11:45

Since we are waiting for the presentation by MS this month, I'll use a Sony game to help breathe depth into what Phil means by small graphical delta and increased immersion, when it comes to graphics (which he most likely assumes we understand from his words and from what XsX will be, in terms of raw specs).

https://youtu.be/Rxx-OoPU8Ds

The video mentions that the original games were already gorgeous on the Decima engine, but lacked some physical capabilities due to the limited CPU & GPU (esp. CPU). So, even if the next gen games look graphically not so much of a leap from this gen, the effects that the new HW and engines allow will increase immersion in a significant way, by making the overall presentation more life-like.

Well, Phil did say it may be depressing to some, and maybe I'm just one of them. Phil talks like a used car salesman but with melting that 4th wall he's still saying higher res, better load times and input latency are what he feels will be the major differences between current- and last gen. He also mentions increased story telling which at least is something to get a bit excited about. 

The problem is that you have to practically analyze whatever Phil is saying to get something positive out of it in regards to pushing next gen boundaries. That is why I seem to upset some people who think I'm intentionally twisting words and have some kind of agenda. Truth is that he's either being brutally honest and he's a terrible sales person OR... he's being as political correct as possible because he knows their cross platform strategy puts Series X is a difficult spot to really flex those next gen muscles. 

Sony is doing the exact opposite and is constantly telling us how their SSD is God's gift to mankind that will revolutionize gaming as we know it. Now maybe they are overselling it and I should temper my expectations. But I would rather have them over-hyping things with crazy footage from games that never even get released or 6 years later, than getting less and less excited whenever I read a Phil Spencer interview. 

MS totally got me when they announced a 12Tflops console, and I still think those specs are insane. But after that all we've been hearing is things like; no next gen exclusives, them not wanting to be in a platform war with Sony, Smart Delivery, Optimized for Series X logo's, a 4Tflops Lockhart and how framerates/resolution are going to be biggest differences between current and next gen. Its almost as if they're trying to sell us a Xbox One X 2.0 instead of a next gen console that typically allows for completely new experiences, not possible on current gen.

Nice to see someone openly admit how receptive they are to advertising for a change. Most people aren't so forward as to come right out and say that they would rather be strung along, manipulated, and potentially lied to, as long as it's in the interest of selling them a bag of goods.



DonFerrari on 02 July 2020
sales2099 said:
DonFerrari said:

Why would you complain of having a better graphical quality? The game will be output to your TV in 4k (and even if it wasn't the TV will upscale it) and with a higher quality than if it was rendered natively at 4k.

It’s sentences like that that make me want to actually understand the tech on a deeper level. Guess we’ll see on a case by case basis. 

pixel count is just one of the components on the overal image quality.

For example look at the Digital Foundry analysis of Detroit Become Human.

It will show the efficiency of the checkerbording used and how much computational power it saved for the game and make clarity compatible with higher resolutions for a fraction of the cost.

So depending on the developer it can make higher quality image using 1440p than 4k for the same power. Of course with unlimited power the pixel count increase will increase image quality, but since consoles are based on trade-off, often you'll be able to make better images by reducing the pixel count.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

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Dulfite on 02 July 2020
DonFerrari said:
Dulfite said:

That response has nothing to do with what I just said. I'm very much interested in new, AAA, FULL FLEDGED exclusive games coming to any system, and I was basing my purchasing decision between Series X and PS5 on who had more of those. Of course I'll continue to buy Nintendo hardware and games, but for the first time since the 360 I will also be buying a second device from either Sony or MS. Based on what I require in terms of games, MS is winning my purchase as of this point. Miles Morales isn't a full fledged game. Neither is Zero Dawn expansion, from what I've read. Where are Sony's exclusive full fledged AAA brand new games at other than Rachet and Clank? 

I'm not talking about AA, or ports, or dlc experiences, or third party games, or timed exclusives. None of those will make me buy a system.

If you base your purchase on AAA games, then you have a PS4 and will buy a PS5. Because third party games will be on both and first party games Sony have been beating MS since 7th gen.

Horizon 2 isn't an expansion, it is a full game. And Miles Morales if is as promissed akin to Lost Legacy then its duration is greater than several AAA games and production values/graphics are of AAA.

Please list out all the AAA, brand new, exclusive, full fledged games PS5 had coming in the first 6 months.

We obviously have to wait for MS's July show to know what they have coming and then I can do a fair comparison. Whichever had more quantity of those types of experiences will probably get my purchase. I don't care about "since 7th gen." I didn't own either device last gen so obviously neither appealed to me terribly. But this gen I'm open minded if one can really impress me. So far I'm not at all impressed by Sony. Now I have to wait for MS presentation. If theirs is a letdown as well then I may just not buy this gen yet.



DonFerrari on 02 July 2020
Dulfite said:
DonFerrari said:

If you base your purchase on AAA games, then you have a PS4 and will buy a PS5. Because third party games will be on both and first party games Sony have been beating MS since 7th gen.

Horizon 2 isn't an expansion, it is a full game. And Miles Morales if is as promissed akin to Lost Legacy then its duration is greater than several AAA games and production values/graphics are of AAA.

Please list out all the AAA, brand new, exclusive, full fledged games PS5 had coming in the first 6 months.

We obviously have to wait for MS's July show to know what they have coming and then I can do a fair comparison. Whichever had more quantity of those types of experiences will probably get my purchase. I don't care about "since 7th gen." I didn't own either device last gen so obviously neither appealed to me terribly. But this gen I'm open minded if one can really impress me. So far I'm not at all impressed by Sony. Now I have to wait for MS presentation. If theirs is a letdown as well then I may just not buy this gen yet.

MS already informed that their games for the next 2 years will be crossgen. So no matter how many brand new exclusive AAA games come to PS5, it will be higher than XSX which will be 0 by own admission of Xbox.

And considering the historic of both companies you'll see the amount.

So it really isn't about the amount of AAA, it is really the company that pleases you.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

chakkra on 02 July 2020
goopy20 said:
padib said:

Guys, let's please keep it civil.

About the question of generational leap, the interview shows that the delta will be smaller regarding visual performances and regarding what we will be able to do graphically this gen versus last gen, relative to the jump from 2D to 3D and then moving forward in history. Phil says that this may be depressing to some, in the condition that they don't understand the next paragraph.

The small differences we will see will now melt the 4th wall, and increase the immersion, making games life-like. This is anything but depressing. The improvements that increase the immersion, per Phil, are:
- High framerate
- Low input latency
- Drastically reduced load times
- Increased storyteller (dev) empowerment, probably via the dev tools and new HW capabilities
- I'll personally add here the non-specified but obvious gain in graphical performance that MS invested a lot of R&D money into, so I'll let the money talk on this point. Even if the delta is small to Phil, it's still a delta.

This comes from video 9:15 - 11:45

Since we are waiting for the presentation by MS this month, I'll use a Sony game to help breathe depth into what Phil means by small graphical delta and increased immersion, when it comes to graphics (which he most likely assumes we understand from his words and from what XsX will be, in terms of raw specs).

https://youtu.be/Rxx-OoPU8Ds

The video mentions that the original games were already gorgeous on the Decima engine, but lacked some physical capabilities due to the limited CPU & GPU (esp. CPU). So, even if the next gen games look graphically not so much of a leap from this gen, the effects that the new HW and engines allow will increase immersion in a significant way, by making the overall presentation more life-like.

Well, Phil did say it may be depressing to some, and maybe I'm just one of them. Phil talks like a used car salesman but with melting that 4th wall he's still saying higher res, better load times and input latency are what he feels will be the major differences between current- and last gen. He also mentions increased story telling which at least is something to get a bit excited about. 

The problem is that you have to practically analyze whatever Phil is saying to get something positive out of it in regards to pushing next gen boundaries. That is why I seem to upset some people who think I'm intentionally twisting words and have some kind of agenda. Truth is that he's either being brutally honest and he's a terrible sales person OR... he's being as political correct as possible because he knows their cross platform strategy puts Series X is a difficult spot to really flex those next gen muscles. 

Sony is doing the exact opposite and is constantly telling us how their SSD is God's gift to mankind that will revolutionize gaming as we know it. Now maybe they are overselling it and I should temper my expectations. But I would rather have them over-hyping things with crazy footage from games that never even get released or 6 years later, than getting less and less excited whenever I read a Phil Spencer interview. 

MS totally got me when they announced a 12Tflops console, and I still think those specs are insane. But after that all we've been hearing is things like; no next gen exclusives, them not wanting to be in a platform war with Sony, Smart Delivery, Optimized for Series X logo's, a 4Tflops Lockhart and how framerates/resolution are going to be biggest differences between current and next gen. Its almost as if they're trying to sell us a Xbox One X 2.0 instead of a next gen console that typically allows for completely new experiences, not possible on current gen.

That's... quite a statement.



goopy20 on 02 July 2020
Angelus said:
goopy20 said:

Well, Phil did say it may be depressing to some, and maybe I'm just one of them. Phil talks like a used car salesman but with melting that 4th wall he's still saying higher res, better load times and input latency are what he feels will be the major differences between current- and last gen. He also mentions increased story telling which at least is something to get a bit excited about. 

The problem is that you have to practically analyze whatever Phil is saying to get something positive out of it in regards to pushing next gen boundaries. That is why I seem to upset some people who think I'm intentionally twisting words and have some kind of agenda. Truth is that he's either being brutally honest and he's a terrible sales person OR... he's being as political correct as possible because he knows their cross platform strategy puts Series X is a difficult spot to really flex those next gen muscles. 

Sony is doing the exact opposite and is constantly telling us how their SSD is God's gift to mankind that will revolutionize gaming as we know it. Now maybe they are overselling it and I should temper my expectations. But I would rather have them over-hyping things with crazy footage from games that never even get released or 6 years later, than getting less and less excited whenever I read a Phil Spencer interview. 

MS totally got me when they announced a 12Tflops console, and I still think those specs are insane. But after that all we've been hearing is things like; no next gen exclusives, them not wanting to be in a platform war with Sony, Smart Delivery, Optimized for Series X logo's, a 4Tflops Lockhart and how framerates/resolution are going to be biggest differences between current and next gen. Its almost as if they're trying to sell us a Xbox One X 2.0 instead of a next gen console that typically allows for completely new experiences, not possible on current gen.

Nice to see someone openly admit how receptive they are to advertising for a change. Most people aren't so forward as to come right out and say that they would rather be strung along, manipulated, and potentially lied to, as long as it's in the interest of selling them a bag of goods.

I exaggerated a bit there, but in a sense you're right. I would have rather seen some super impressive tech demo in May, that in the end never materializes in an actual game, than that shit show we got. At least it would have gotten people hyped about the promise of next gen gaming, while that May event was downright depressing for anyone with high expectations from a 12Tflops console. 

Look I am not a tech guy, but I am a marketing guy. If there's one thing I know it's that Phil Spencer is doing one helluva job at not getting people fired up about next gen gaming. The interviewer literally asks him "With all that power and technology, are there any kind of experiences that you can now deliver that wouldn't be possible on previous consoles". He could have just replied with a big YES and how we'll see bigger, more immersive worlds bla bla bla. So why didn't he? Why even mention that the deltas will be much smaller compared to previous gen? It just doesn't make sense from a marketing standpoint if they're goal is to get people excited about their next gen console. And I tell you what, it would make even less sense if they now blow everyone's minds with never-before-seen next gen visuals in July.

Last edited by goopy20 - on 02 July 2020

sales2099 on 02 July 2020
DonFerrari said:
Dulfite said:

Please list out all the AAA, brand new, exclusive, full fledged games PS5 had coming in the first 6 months.

We obviously have to wait for MS's July show to know what they have coming and then I can do a fair comparison. Whichever had more quantity of those types of experiences will probably get my purchase. I don't care about "since 7th gen." I didn't own either device last gen so obviously neither appealed to me terribly. But this gen I'm open minded if one can really impress me. So far I'm not at all impressed by Sony. Now I have to wait for MS presentation. If theirs is a letdown as well then I may just not buy this gen yet.

MS already informed that their games for the next 2 years will be crossgen. So no matter how many brand new exclusive AAA games come to PS5, it will be higher than XSX which will be 0 by own admission of Xbox.

And considering the historic of both companies you'll see the amount.

So it really isn't about the amount of AAA, it is really the company that pleases you.

Well that’s not really true. Cross gen or not the games are still new. AAA if that is in fact what they are. It’s a Series X 1st party game not on PS5. Why bring up last gen versions into this when it technically has no merit in a next gen discussion. 

I’d say quantity of AAA matters as in it increases the probability one or more will appeal to the individual. 



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles.