Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Phil Spencer confident after seeing PS5 presentation - Gamelab 2020 interview

How do you think MS will perform at the July presentation?

MS will be in a league of its own 5 6.25%
 
MS will do better than the PS5 presentation 14 17.50%
 
MS will do as good as the PS5 presentation 13 16.25%
 
MS will do less well than... 48 60.00%
 
Total:80
DonFerrari said:
sales2099 said:

This seems to be a pretty one sided problem ;)

You think Sony was going to tell people the majority of games shown were multiplats? Or that Unreal Engine 5 will work amazing on Series X (also informing people that their studios actually use it)?

He is doing his job to inform his community and clear out any FUD. And above all else, grace in your competitions triumph. Instead of “salty silence” when LOU2 breaks records, he congratulates them. Genius. So ya, that’s my opinion when people get defensive about Phil’s tweets, it tells me he’s doing his job. 

Of course it is one sided. Sony doesn't had the urge to claim the games show in May would show on Playstation or need to rob spotlight from MS.

Unless you tell me Sony has no history of reacting/capitalizing on Xbox in the past then maybe you have a point. The used games video from 2013 is the top of the list in terms of where the bar is set. So I don’t think Phil clarifying things with tweets is a big deal by comparison. 



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

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DonFerrari said:
sales2099 said:

Sony themselves was chasing 4K when they announced the PS4 Pro and it’s just mind boggling to me how they and fans are 100% on board with rolling it back. 

4k adoption is at a all time high and more affordable then ever. I honestly feel you should be demanding Sony target 4K and I can’t help but think of the situation was reversed MS would get a ton of flack for capping their games at 1440p. FPS is debatable and I get that. 30fps is more then enough for certain genres, no question. But 4K should be attainable by next gen or else why we even get 4K TVs for gaming if we can’t get the most of it? Sorry but 4K is better then 1440p, a clear picture matters and it has for several years. If Red Dead Redemption 2 can do 4K 30 FPS then absolutely nothing should stop next gen from doing 4K 30fps. 

Guess you confused internally rendered at 4k and output at 4k then.

Very few PS4Pro game rendered 4k, but they mostly outputed 4k with reconstruction and similar techniques.

I’m not technical but I don’t care how you get to 4K so long as it happens. So you agree Sony was chasing 4K but now 1440p is the holy grail? Cmon man that ain’t right. For next gen I’d like to make use of my 4K tv especially since my Xbox X gave me a taste for a few years now. 

Edit: On topic in case mods are reading: that’s why I’m 100% behind MS when they plan to target 4K for their 1st party. It’s a selling point to the brand and for me it’s something next gen that this gen could rarely do. It’s always been the goal and narrative, no flip flopping on my part. 

Edit: I meant to say “native” 4k. 

Last edited by sales2099 - on 01 July 2020

Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

sales2099 said:
DonFerrari said:

Of course it is one sided. Sony doesn't had the urge to claim the games show in May would show on Playstation or need to rob spotlight from MS.

Unless you tell me Sony has no history of reacting/capitalizing on Xbox in the past then maybe you have a point. The used games video from 2013 is the top of the list in terms of where the bar is set. So I don’t think Phil clarifying things with tweets is a big deal by comparison. 

Sony used MS own shoot in the foot to promote themselves that is true. Phil uses Sony good news to promote himself. Not really the same thing.

But you may as well remember MS during the start of the gen putting in one of their pages (I think it was Major Nelson doing) some games were exclusive to Xbox One (and they were in fact Sony's first party games), they created the Destiny Fragrance to circumvent Sony marketing deal, among other shenanigans.

You'll hardly see Sony publically caring about Xbox, and certainly not to the extent of Phil. You were one to accuse Sony of reacting to the Xbox reveal of info with the GDC video (even with evidence that the event was pre-recorded and informed to media long before MS reveal of info).

Several games on MS May show are going to be on PS4 (like sports game, AC, etc), but did you see Playstation boss tweeting anything to ensure those games would be on Playstation?

sales2099 said:
DonFerrari said:

Guess you confused internally rendered at 4k and output at 4k then.

Very few PS4Pro game rendered 4k, but they mostly outputed 4k with reconstruction and similar techniques.

I’m not technical but I don’t care how you get to 4K so long as it happens. So you agree Sony was chasing 4K but now 1440p is the holy grail? Cmon man that ain’t right. For next gen I’d like to make use of my 4K tv especially since my Xbox X gave me a taste for a few years now. 

Edit: On topic in case mods are reading: that’s why I’m 100% behind MS when they plan to target 4K for their 1st party. It’s a selling point to the brand and for me it’s something next gen that this gen could rarely do. 

So you already confirmed all that was needed. PS4Pro output at 4k to the TV, PS5 also will output at 4k (even 8k in the future) still that doesn't mean it will be rendered in 4k internally.

I want to use the best image possible on my TV, and if technically rendering at 1440p and reconstructing to 4k gives a better overall IQ than native 4k sure give me reconstructed.



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DonFerrari said:
sales2099 said:

Unless you tell me Sony has no history of reacting/capitalizing on Xbox in the past then maybe you have a point. The used games video from 2013 is the top of the list in terms of where the bar is set. So I don’t think Phil clarifying things with tweets is a big deal by comparison. 

Sony used MS own shoot in the foot to promote themselves that is true. Phil uses Sony good news to promote himself. Not really the same thing.

But you may as well remember MS during the start of the gen putting in one of their pages (I think it was Major Nelson doing) some games were exclusive to Xbox One (and they were in fact Sony's first party games), they created the Destiny Fragrance to circumvent Sony marketing deal, among other shenanigans.

You'll hardly see Sony publically caring about Xbox, and certainly not to the extent of Phil. You were one to accuse Sony of reacting to the Xbox reveal of info with the GDC video (even with evidence that the event was pre-recorded and informed to media long before MS reveal of info).

Several games on MS May show are going to be on PS4 (like sports game, AC, etc), but did you see Playstation boss tweeting anything to ensure those games would be on Playstation?

sales2099 said:

I’m not technical but I don’t care how you get to 4K so long as it happens. So you agree Sony was chasing 4K but now 1440p is the holy grail? Cmon man that ain’t right. For next gen I’d like to make use of my 4K tv especially since my Xbox X gave me a taste for a few years now. 

Edit: On topic in case mods are reading: that’s why I’m 100% behind MS when they plan to target 4K for their 1st party. It’s a selling point to the brand and for me it’s something next gen that this gen could rarely do. 

So you already confirmed all that was needed. PS4Pro output at 4k to the TV, PS5 also will output at 4k (even 8k in the future) still that doesn't mean it will be rendered in 4k internally.

I want to use the best image possible on my TV, and if technically rendering at 1440p and reconstructing to 4k gives a better overall IQ than native 4k sure give me reconstructed.

Your first point it all comes down to Xbox is the company with everything to prove. Sony is on top they don’t have to respond to every little thing Xbox does. In the end Phil clarifying things for Xbox gamers is a good thing. Our backs against the wall make no mistake. 

The second one you kinda got me, I responded too hastily and emotionally but my own ignorance of the tech works in my favour here. My point is that 4K > 1440p, it’s as simple as that. You’d think next gen and all this talk about the leap in power would make native 4K possible. FPS is another story we covered that allready. Point is Xbox isn’t wavering in that goal and in their message over the last few years. 



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

sales2099 said:
goopy20 said:

Call it cherry picking all you want but, besides a lack of gameplay, that's pretty much what we saw at the May presentation. Games that didn't look all that different from what we're already playing because most of those 12Tflops were "wasted" on rendering the games at 4k/60fps. 

Fact is that aiming for 4k/60fps simply doesn't leave much resources left for the stuff that actually matters and 4k/60fps is practically all MS has been talking about when it comes to their next gen games.

Why next-gen consoles shouldn't focus on 'true 4K'

However, when looking at prior transitions, the danger in prioritising 'true 4K' across the board is that too much of those extra GPU resources will be spent painting pixels, with not enough power dedicated to providing an actual leap in graphical fidelity - the stuff that actually matters in defining new experiences associated with a new wave of console hardware.

The big takeaway here from my point of view is clear - next-gen hardware design and marketing shouldn't really be defined by native resolution. It was a key point of differentiation for Microsoft with Xbox One X, for a product very much aimed at a hardcore niche looking to get the best out of their expensive new TV purchases - but the new wave of machines will need the mainstream appeal that propelled PlayStation 4 to over 80 million sales.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2018-why-next-gen-consoles-shouldnt-focus-on-true-4k-rendering

Its just ironic that Sony themselves was chasing 4K when they announced the PS4 Pro and now they rolling it back with PS5. 

4k adoption is at a all time high and more affordable then ever. I honestly feel you should be demanding Sony at least target 4K and I can’t help but think of the situation was reversed MS would get a ton of flack for capping their games at 1440p. FPS is debatable and I get that. 30fps is more then enough for certain genres, no question. But 4K should be attainable by next gen or else why we even get 4K TVs for gaming if we can’t get the most of it? Sorry but 4K is better then 1440p, a clear picture matters and it has for several years. If Red Dead Redemption 2 can do 4K 30 FPS then absolutely nothing should stop next gen from doing 4K 30fps. 

That's because the ps4 pro and X1X weren't next gen consoles, they were 4k consoles designed for a niche audience who wanted to get the best out of their new tv's. 

The Eurogamer article does a pretty good explaining why next gen games shouldn't focus on true 4k. It's just too expensive and it leaves very little resources left for providing an actual leap in graphical fidelity, at least in combination with 60fps and ray tracing. Personally I would rather see developers try to get the best results possible from these next gen consoles and if they can get all their ambitions in their game and still do 4k/60fps, then great. But it shouldn't be a priority, though. A next gen GTA6 will simply allow Rockstar to be a far more ambitious if they're targeting 1440p/30fps instead of 4k/60fps. Also, I'm pretty sure most people will hardly be able to tell the difference between 1440p and 4k, so why waste that much resources on it that could be used elsewhere? 

But at least you realize that 4k and 60fps aren't a great idea now.

Last edited by goopy20 - on 01 July 2020

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Considering the millions of dollars Xbox has spent, I think expectations are very high but people will be cautious as they are tired of hearing 2015 will be biggest year, 2016 is 2017 is... wait till next E3, wait for the power of the cloud. Although, I believe this time Xbox will have a great showcase of 1st party games due to expansions in existing studios and acquisitions of new studios.



DonFerrari said:
Dulfite said:

Nah, I'm from the group that thinks PS3 level graphics are good enough when done with interesting art styles (like most Nintendo games). PS4 graphics are unnecessary, can not tell much difference, and PS5 even less so for me.

But I wasn't talking about graphics here. My issue with PS5 is that it doesn't have a lot of new, exclusive, AAA, full fledged games announced.

If you don't have much interest in graphics and are interested in Nintendo games it is quite easy to see why you wouldn't be much interested in the games show on Sony show.

That response has nothing to do with what I just said. I'm very much interested in new, AAA, FULL FLEDGED exclusive games coming to any system, and I was basing my purchasing decision between Series X and PS5 on who had more of those. Of course I'll continue to buy Nintendo hardware and games, but for the first time since the 360 I will also be buying a second device from either Sony or MS. Based on what I require in terms of games, MS is winning my purchase as of this point. Miles Morales isn't a full fledged game. Neither is Zero Dawn expansion, from what I've read. Where are Sony's exclusive full fledged AAA brand new games at other than Rachet and Clank? 

I'm not talking about AA, or ports, or dlc experiences, or third party games, or timed exclusives. None of those will make me buy a system.



goopy20 said:
sales2099 said:

In case any mods are watching and wondering the same thing... It comes down to: Will anybody who doesn’t use Xbox as their primary console be impressed if Phil Spencer advertises their July games with 4K/60 FPS (or at close to those benchmarks as possible)? Evidently the answer is “No, 1440p/30 FPS for life”.

Looks like the games themselves will have to impress and not the benchmarks they target. I mean, that’s always the goal but the benchmarks should be the icing on the cake. I like the icing but I guess others don’t want the icing at all (shrugs) 

Wow! Finally something we agree on :) The games themselves need to impress and not the benchmarks as most people won't know or care if a game is running in 1440p or 4k.

Many people seem to think its a good idea to give us options in next gen games. Like a performance mode with higher fps and visuals mode with better graphics settings. But there's a big difference between graphics settings and overall next gen graphics. Higher graphics settings is just some icing on the cake that doesn't have a real impact on how the game plays, its more like a toggle on/off slider like we're seeing on pc and mid-gen consoles. Overall visual fidelity is more about pushing a console to its limits while trying to get the best visuals on screen. For example, HZD2 now seems to have cloud and storm formations that aren't just there for eye candy, they play a role in the story and isn't something you can just toggle on or off. Same thing with physics, ai, npc count, dynamic day and night cycles and overall world/level design.

Whether you were impressed with Sony's event or not, they did show next gen games that are using the extra horse power not just for a bump in resolution/fps and graphics settings, but for core gameplay mechanics like the portal jumping in Ratchet & Clank, seamless underwater locations in HZD2 etc. Those are the things that set next gen console games apart from pc games at ultra settings and that's what MS should be showing in July.   

The only 2 games I saw on Sony's show that looked truly like a generation leap were Horizon: Forbidden West and Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart. GT7 had a decent graphical leap, but not a truly generational leap, and there was quite noticeable pop-in, which is something many Sony forum warriors were claiming the PS5's faster SSD would virtually eliminate. Project Athia also had a decent graphical leap, but not large enough to to feel like a generational leap imo. Some of the other games shown were cross-gen games, like Kena and Goodbye Volcano High, and looked the part. Others looked cross-gen, even though they're only releasing on next-gen, like Deathloop, Godfall, Ghostwire Tokyo, Returnal, Stray, and Spider-Man: Miles Morales. Several others didn't even look like cross-gen games running on PS5, but rather current game games running on PS4, like Sackboy, Destruction All-Stars, Solar Ash, Astro's Playroom, and Bugsnax. 

By comparison, here is how I feel about the graphics of the Xbox Series X games Microsoft has shown so far:

Games that look truly next-gen

  • Senua's Saga: Hellblade 2
  • Flight Simulator
  • Halo Infinite first trailer (first half only)
  • Scorn
  • The Ascent (it's not a generational leap compared to most AAA games, but it is a generational leap compared to current gen AA top down and isometric games, it even looks substantially better than the AAA Diablo 4 which uses a similar isometric viewpoint)

Games that look like cross-gen games running on next-gen hardware

  • The Medium
  • Assassin's Creed Valhalla
  • Halo Infinite second trailer
  • Bright Memory Infinite (it might not look truly next-gen, but it is damned impressive for a game made by one person)
  • Second Extinction
  • CHORUS
  • Dirt 5
  • Everwild

Games that look current gen (but running at a higher resolution and/or framerate)

  • Vampire: The Masquerade- Bloodlines 2
  • Scarlet Nexus
  • Yakuza 7
  • Call of the Sea
Last edited by shikamaru317 - on 01 July 2020

goopy20 said:
sales2099 said:

Its just ironic that Sony themselves was chasing 4K when they announced the PS4 Pro and now they rolling it back with PS5. 

4k adoption is at a all time high and more affordable then ever. I honestly feel you should be demanding Sony at least target 4K and I can’t help but think of the situation was reversed MS would get a ton of flack for capping their games at 1440p. FPS is debatable and I get that. 30fps is more then enough for certain genres, no question. But 4K should be attainable by next gen or else why we even get 4K TVs for gaming if we can’t get the most of it? Sorry but 4K is better then 1440p, a clear picture matters and it has for several years. If Red Dead Redemption 2 can do 4K 30 FPS then absolutely nothing should stop next gen from doing 4K 30fps. 

That's because the ps4 pro and X1X weren't next gen consoles, they were 4k consoles designed for a niche audience who wanted to get the best out of their new tv's. 

The Eurogamer article does a pretty good explaining why next gen games shouldn't focus on true 4k. It's just too expensive and it leaves very little resources left for providing an actual leap in graphical fidelity, at least in combination with 60fps and ray tracing. Personally I would rather see developers try to get the best results possible from these next gen consoles and if they can get all their ambitions in their game and still do 4k/60fps, then great. But it shouldn't be a priority, though. A next gen GTA6 will simply allow Rockstar to be a far more ambitious if they're targeting 1440p/30fps instead of 4k/60fps. Also, I'm pretty sure most people will hardly be able to tell the difference between 1440p and 4k, so why waste that much resources on it that could be used elsewhere? 

But at least you realize that 4k and 60fps aren't a great idea now.

I see 4K/60fps is too demanding for many next gen games unless the genre or game type allows for it.

What I don’t understand is how 4K/30fps isn’t doable though for next gen all of a sudden. If Red Dead Redemption 2 is 4K/30 FPS and Series X is twice the power then surely 4K/30 is doable with the other bells and whistles like ray tracing. PS5 is similar in power so I really don’t see the obstacle here. Im more confused that you are ok with 4K TVs not having their potential used when they have been very affordable the last few years. And this isn’t about you per se but I’m very surprised Sony has received no blowback from targeting 1440p as the holy grail. 

“Also, I'm pretty sure most people will hardly be able to tell the difference between 1440p and 4k”

You just sounded like a defensive Xbox One fan in 2013 when their games were 720p to Ps4s 1080p. I really hope the irony isn’t lost on you. I have a 4k TV and I’d like to use it. That’s why I’m looking forward to MS delivering on games and benchmarks in July. 



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

Dulfite said:
DonFerrari said:

If you don't have much interest in graphics and are interested in Nintendo games it is quite easy to see why you wouldn't be much interested in the games show on Sony show.

That response has nothing to do with what I just said. I'm very much interested in new, AAA, FULL FLEDGED exclusive games coming to any system, and I was basing my purchasing decision between Series X and PS5 on who had more of those. Of course I'll continue to buy Nintendo hardware and games, but for the first time since the 360 I will also be buying a second device from either Sony or MS. Based on what I require in terms of games, MS is winning my purchase as of this point. Miles Morales isn't a full fledged game. Neither is Zero Dawn expansion, from what I've read. Where are Sony's exclusive full fledged AAA brand new games at other than Rachet and Clank? 

I'm not talking about AA, or ports, or dlc experiences, or third party games, or timed exclusives. None of those will make me buy a system.

Ummm the name literally has 2 in its logo/name