Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Phil Spencer confident after seeing PS5 presentation - Gamelab 2020 interview

How do you think MS will perform at the July presentation?

MS will be in a league of its own 5 6.49%
 
MS will do better than the PS5 presentation 14 18.18%
 
MS will do as good as the PS5 presentation 13 16.88%
 
MS will do less well than... 45 58.44%
 
Total:77
chakkra said:

CGI-Quality said:

Scorn was not shown running on an Xbox Series X and is the same graphical fidelity promised to PC gamers in 2017.

Err... The developer seems to be promising something different:

"How much has the game changed in the time that it has been in development?
A basic structure is still there, but if you were to play builds of the game now compared to the builds from few years ago it sometimes feels like a completely different game."

And just as a reminder, the text in video trailer literally says:
"In-engine footage representative of expected Xbox Series X visual quality"

I don't know about you guys, but to me that sounds like: "this is the level of visual quality we are aiming for."

https://gamingbolt.com/scorn-interview-storytelling-inspirations-structure-and-more

I know what the text said, but it doesn't change that it wasn't running on Xbox hardware and still didn't look leaps and bounds better than games that came before it.



                                                                                                             

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CGI-Quality said:
chakkra said:

Err... The developer seems to be promising something different:

"How much has the game changed in the time that it has been in development?
A basic structure is still there, but if you were to play builds of the game now compared to the builds from few years ago it sometimes feels like a completely different game."

And just as a reminder, the text in video trailer literally says:
"In-engine footage representative of expected Xbox Series X visual quality"

I don't know about you guys, but to me that sounds like: "this is the level of visual quality we are aiming for."

https://gamingbolt.com/scorn-interview-storytelling-inspirations-structure-and-more

I know what the text said, but it doesn't change that it wasn't running on Xbox hardware and still didn't look leaps and bounds better than games that came before it.

Wow, I'm actually quite surprised at hearing that. Of all the "next-gen" games shown so far, that is actually the one that has impressed me the most visually speaking (assuming they do reach the level of the trailer of course).



chakkra said:
CGI-Quality said:

I know what the text said, but it doesn't change that it wasn't running on Xbox hardware and still didn't look leaps and bounds better than games that came before it.

Wow, I'm actually quite surprised at hearing that. Of all the "next-gen" games shown so far, that is actually the one that has impressed me the most visually speaking (assuming they do reach the level of the trailer of course).

Perhaps because I've seen a little more (and the new stuff is just a tiny bit better looking than what they showed PC gamers three years ago). I guess that shine has worn off a bit. I'm more impressed with Pragmata,  Forbidden West, and Project MARA than just about anything else I've seen.



                                                                                                             

LudicrousSpeed said:
goopy20 said:

Sure we've seen underwater gameplay in open world games before, but not with this kinda detail man.

That is what Sony's been hyping. Rendering massive amounts of geometry and assets and creating richer worlds. Call me nuts but to me that sounds helluva lot more exciting than Phil saying "the benefits will be felt most clearly in the mitigation of long load times and low or inconsistent frame rates that he believes hurt player immersion."

That wasn’t even gameplay. So who knows what we will actually see. But apparently you’re ok with the same mechanics we already have just more detailed graphics. Not sure why you’ve spent months worrying about Xbox then.

You’re entitled to the opinion that graphics are more important than frame rate. But present it as nothing more than your opinion, no need to spew nonsense about how “no one cares about 60fps” or “Phil Spencer thinks graphics aren’t improving”. 

You're taking everything I say way too literally. When I say nobody cares about 60fps then no, I don't mean there isn't a single person on the planet who doesn't care about it. All I'm saying is that developers stopped aiming for 60fps a long time ago as it turns out visual fidelity is more important for selling a game. Nobody Hardly anyone is going to base their purchase decisions by checking to see if a game is 60fps, they look at how well its made, how it plays and by the time they finished the game they probably won't even know if its 30- or 60fps. The only games were 60fps does become a selling point are online shooters, fighting and racing games.

Also, when I'm quoting Phil Spencer saying "The Xbox Series X will mainly use its expanded horsepower to improve load times and frame rates." Then no, I don't literally mean there won't be any visual upgrades at all. But you tell me what he's referring to when he says "And that might sound depressing to some"?

My point is that Phil is telling us to lower our expectations for next gen as the jump in visuals might not be as pronounced as before in the last console transition. While Sony is telling us the exact opposite and are talking about one of the biggest jumps in gaming history. Of course we need to see a lot more to determine who is right, but is it really so wrong for me to be more excited about what Sony's been saying (and showing) than to listen to Phil and lower my expectations?

I don't hate Xbox or come here to shit on it, I'm just excited about next gen. I expect both companies to sell it to me and blow me away. And not let me second guess if there's going to be a significant leap at all. Like I said, if they now completely blow me away in July, I'll take everything I've been raving about for months back and I'll be a happy man. But if so, then they sure have done a shitty job at promoting their next gen console leading up to the event.  

Last edited by goopy20 - on 02 July 2020

goopy20 said:
LudicrousSpeed said:

lol what is a “seamless underwater location”? I wasn’t aware HFW invented underwater gaming. And multiple people already discussed with you portal jumping or transitioning worlds that have existed in games for generations. We didn’t see any HFW gameplay but the gameplay we did see, Spider-Man, GT7, and Ratchet, didn’t look different than what you can already play from a mechanics standpoint. Just looks visually better for obvious reasons. Same with the Sackboy game and the AstroBoy demo game. Nothing wrong with that, of course. These are launch window or early games. But you’ve spent months arguing about how launch games should blow gamers away with new experiences, so I can understand why you’re reaching. But nah. 

Also who has been claiming anything about settings you can toggle to disable advanced physics or AI or weather, lol.  I don’t think you understand how graphics options work. 

Sure we've seen underwater gameplay in open world games before, but not with this kinda detail man.

That is what Sony's been hyping. Rendering massive amounts of geometry and assets and creating richer worlds. Call me nuts but to me that sounds helluva lot more exciting than Phil saying "the benefits will be felt most clearly in the mitigation of long load times and low or inconsistent frame rates that he believes hurt player immersion."

So what you are saying is that better graphics which is the hallmark of a new generation is impressive but isn't that pretty much expected.  While the scenes do look good, there isn't anything new there.  Lets take another impressive game which is Metro Exodus which I was playing on the X1X before it left gamepass.  The game looks absolutely great but the loading times between starting up the game and deaths are atrocious.  While graphical looks do impress, a game with really good graphics that load in secs instead of a minute is something very tangle.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with what Phil said as consistent frame rates and loading times are very tangle things you feel immediately when playing a game.  As he stated it gives you better immersion in the game then sitting there with your controller in hand waiting for the game to load up like I was with Metro Exodus.  Immediately jumping straight into the game is definitely a next gen improvement over what we have been experiencing with these consoles for years.  As for as a graphical leap, those are also expected but those are things that will always come with better CPU/GPU and memory.

Yes, Phil is telling you to lower your expectation because even though Horizon looks better than its older brother, its not so much so much a leap between the PS2 and PS3 games.  Even looking at TLOU2 the graphical jump doesn't look that huge.



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Machiavellian said:
goopy20 said:

Sure we've seen underwater gameplay in open world games before, but not with this kinda detail man.

That is what Sony's been hyping. Rendering massive amounts of geometry and assets and creating richer worlds. Call me nuts but to me that sounds helluva lot more exciting than Phil saying "the benefits will be felt most clearly in the mitigation of long load times and low or inconsistent frame rates that he believes hurt player immersion."

So what you are saying is that better graphics which is the hallmark of a new generation is impressive but isn't that pretty much expected.  While the scenes do look good, there isn't anything new there.  Lets take another impressive game which is Metro Exodus which I was playing on the X1X before it left gamepass.  The game looks absolutely great but the loading times between starting up the game and deaths are atrocious.  While graphical looks do impress, a game with really good graphics that load in secs instead of a minute is something very tangle.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with what Phil said as consistent frame rates and loading times are very tangle things you feel immediately when playing a game.  As he stated it gives you better immersion in the game then sitting there with your controller in hand waiting for the game to load up like I was with Metro Exodus.  Immediately jumping straight into the game is definitely a next gen improvement over what we have been experiencing with these consoles for years.  As for as a graphical leap, those are also expected but those are things that will always come with better CPU/GPU and memory.

Yes, Phil is telling you to lower your expectation because even though Horizon looks better than its older brother, its not so much so much a leap between the PS2 and PS3 games.  Even looking at TLOU2 the graphical jump doesn't look that huge.

I'm not expecting a jump from ps2 to ps3 either but yes, a obvious leap in visual fidelity and scope is what I'm expecting. The HZD2 trailer didn't show a whole lot of clear gameplay, but just the fact that the world now seems to have a lot more variation/detail and a giant lake with an underwater city to explore is already something we didn't see in part 1.

Faster loading times will obviously be convenient but its not the main reason why Sony set a hard target for their 5GB throughput. Sony believes the SSD will be key to next gen as it allows not just faster loading, it allows for 2GB of assets to be streamed from the SSD in the time it takes to turn your in-game character (about 0,25 secs). That is why you will be able to jump in that lake in HZD2 and see underwater levels with that kind of detail without any loading screen, and how Ratchet & Clank pulled off those crazy dimensional jump scenes. Those were just glimpses of what to come, but I'm sure we will see a lot more before the ps5 launches.

We all have different expectations but to me, a complete shift in level/world design sounds pretty exciting and definitely something I would call a generational jump over current gen. Whereas 4k/60fps and faster loading is also cool, but not something that will truly feel like a generational leap imo.   



goopy20 said:
LudicrousSpeed said:

That wasn’t even gameplay. So who knows what we will actually see. But apparently you’re ok with the same mechanics we already have just more detailed graphics. Not sure why you’ve spent months worrying about Xbox then.

You’re entitled to the opinion that graphics are more important than frame rate. But present it as nothing more than your opinion, no need to spew nonsense about how “no one cares about 60fps” or “Phil Spencer thinks graphics aren’t improving”. 

You're taking everything I say way too literally. When I say nobody cares about 60fps then no, I don't mean there isn't a single person on the planet who doesn't care about it. All I'm saying is that developers stopped aiming for 60fps a long time ago as it turns out visual fidelity is more important for selling a game. Nobody Hardly anyone is going to base their purchase decisions by checking to see if a game is 60fps, they look at how well its made, how it plays and by the time they finished the game they probably won't even know if its 30- or 60fps. The only games were 60fps does become a selling point are online shooters, fighting and racing games.

Also, when I'm quoting Phil Spencer saying "The Xbox Series X will mainly use its expanded horsepower to improve load times and frame rates." Then no, I don't literally mean there won't be any visual upgrades at all. But you tell me what he's referring to when he says "And that might sound depressing to some"?

My point is that Phil is telling us to lower our expectations for next gen as the jump in visuals might not be as pronounced as before in the last console transition. While Sony is telling us the exact opposite and are talking about one of the biggest jumps in gaming history. Of course we need to see a lot more to determine who is right, but is it really so wrong for me to be more excited about what Sony's been saying (and showing) than to listen to Phil and lower my expectations?

I don't hate Xbox or come here to shit on it, I'm just excited about next gen. I expect both companies to sell it to me and blow me away. And not let me second guess if there's going to be a significant leap at all. Like I said, if they now completely blow me away in July, I'll take everything I've been raving about for months back and I'll be a happy man. But if so, then they sure have done a shitty job at promoting their next gen console leading up to the event.  

More nonsense, those that find 60fps appealing probably won’t even be able to tell the difference between it and 30. You just can’t help yourself but to spew nonsense to support your opinion lol.

Also Phil hasn’t been telling you not to expect a big graphics jump or to lower your expectations for next gen. Idk, I kind of think taking you at your word for what you post is not bad at all compared to you constantly taking quotes from Microsoft people and twisting their words and cherry picking lines out of context to suit the agenda you’ve been pushing for months.

Based on your past comments even if MS comes out with amazing stuff in July you’ll just be FUDing about how much better it would be if they weren’t designing games for potato PCs and porting up. No one has told you it’s wrong for you to be more excited about PS5 but you don’t need to spew nonsense to others about Xbox to convince us.



Guys, let's please keep it civil.

About the question of generational leap, the interview shows that the delta will be smaller regarding visual performances and regarding what we will be able to do graphically this gen versus last gen, relative to the jump from 2D to 3D and then moving forward in history. Phil says that this may be depressing to some, in the condition that they don't understand the next paragraph.

The small differences we will see will now melt the 4th wall, and increase the immersion, making games life-like. This is anything but depressing. The improvements that increase the immersion, per Phil, are:
- High framerate
- Low input latency
- Drastically reduced load times
- Increased storyteller (dev) empowerment, probably via the dev tools and new HW capabilities
- I'll personally add here the non-specified but obvious gain in graphical performance that MS invested a lot of R&D money into, so I'll let the money talk on this point. Even if the delta is small to Phil, it's still a delta.

This comes from video 9:15 - 11:45

Since we are waiting for the presentation by MS this month, I'll use a Sony game to help breathe depth into what Phil means by small graphical delta and increased immersion, when it comes to graphics (which he most likely assumes we understand from his words and from what XsX will be, in terms of raw specs).

https://youtu.be/Rxx-OoPU8Ds

The video mentions that the original games were already gorgeous on the Decima engine, but lacked some physical capabilities due to the limited CPU & GPU (esp. CPU). So, even if the next gen games look graphically not so much of a leap from this gen, the effects that the new HW and engines allow will increase immersion in a significant way, by making the overall presentation more life-like.

Last edited by padib - on 02 July 2020

The XBox series X Event could be on 23rd July !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mws7NP49m3o

23rd of July - XBox First Party Games (Halo, other returning IP)

August - Playstation State of Play

Later in August - XBox for Lockhart Reveal.

Last edited by Nate4Drake - on 02 July 2020

”Every great dream begins with a dreamer. Always remember, you have within you the strength, the patience, and the passion to reach for the stars to change the world.”

Harriet Tubman.

goopy20 said:
LudicrousSpeed said:

That wasn’t even gameplay. So who knows what we will actually see. But apparently you’re ok with the same mechanics we already have just more detailed graphics. Not sure why you’ve spent months worrying about Xbox then.

You’re entitled to the opinion that graphics are more important than frame rate. But present it as nothing more than your opinion, no need to spew nonsense about how “no one cares about 60fps” or “Phil Spencer thinks graphics aren’t improving”. 

You're taking everything I say way too literally. When I say nobody cares about 60fps then no, I don't mean there isn't a single person on the planet who doesn't care about it. All I'm saying is that developers stopped aiming for 60fps a long time ago as it turns out visual fidelity is more important for selling a game. Nobody Hardly anyone is going to base their purchase decisions by checking to see if a game is 60fps, they look at how well its made, how it plays and by the time they finished the game they probably won't even know if its 30- or 60fps. The only games were 60fps does become a selling point are online shooters, fighting and racing games.

Also, when I'm quoting Phil Spencer saying "The Xbox Series X will mainly use its expanded horsepower to improve load times and frame rates." Then no, I don't literally mean there won't be any visual upgrades at all. But you tell me what he's referring to when he says "And that might sound depressing to some"?

My point is that Phil is telling us to lower our expectations for next gen as the jump in visuals might not be as pronounced as before in the last console transition. While Sony is telling us the exact opposite and are talking about one of the biggest jumps in gaming history. Of course we need to see a lot more to determine who is right, but is it really so wrong for me to be more excited about what Sony's been saying (and showing) than to listen to Phil and lower my expectations?

I don't hate Xbox or come here to shit on it, I'm just excited about next gen. I expect both companies to sell it to me and blow me away. And not let me second guess if there's going to be a significant leap at all. Like I said, if they now completely blow me away in July, I'll take everything I've been raving about for months back and I'll be a happy man. But if so, then they sure have done a shitty job at promoting their next gen console leading up to the event.  

The FPS comes down to the culture difference between our platforms. Sony likes their “third person single player story driven action adventure” games at 30fps because it works. Graphics can be pushed and it’s slow paced enough that it’s more then enough to experience properly. Xbox specializes in shooters, racers and multiplayer games. In that regard 60 FPS is a game changer. Now when MS starts to make more of their own 3rd person titles, I would hope we at least get the option, like Hellblade gave us.

I also remember playing Halo 5 at launch with sub 1080p and it was jarring. Since the 4K update I can’t imagine Halo being less now. Crisp picture at all times. Same goes for 60fps as opposed to 30. Just saying let’s try to empathize with each other because for us, 4K/60 is very much part of what makes Xbox games next gen. Also can’t blame Ms for targeting these benchmarks when they were ridiculed by gamers for not prioritizing resolutions at the start of the gen.

Otherwise it’s just silly to say Series X games won’t look next gen compared to Xbox One games. Flight Simulator, nuff said. Of course they will. And it’s wrong to see those A-AA games in the May event and hold them to the same standard as graphic powerhouses like The Coalition and Turn 10 for example.

We aren’t the casuals who make snap judgments at the first thing we see, were supposed to be above that and be a little more critical. That’s why we are here. MS made a mistake opening with smaller budget 3rd party games, and you know that. So maybe wait for their real show and not take as much advantage of their one misstep this year.