I just finished the game and damn I hope we get a spinoff series/sequel with Abby and Lev.
The action parts going in the hospital and down the tower was so immense. Gimme more of that!
How do you rate TLOU2 story | |||
1 | 8 | 14.55% | |
2 | 1 | 1.82% | |
3 | 5 | 9.09% | |
4 | 3 | 5.45% | |
5 | 5 | 9.09% | |
6 | 7 | 12.73% | |
7 | 4 | 7.27% | |
8 | 4 | 7.27% | |
9 | 7 | 12.73% | |
10 | 11 | 20.00% | |
Total: | 55 |
I just finished the game and damn I hope we get a spinoff series/sequel with Abby and Lev.
The action parts going in the hospital and down the tower was so immense. Gimme more of that!
iron_megalith said:
You are merely projecting your logic into the matter but don't really have anything concrete to back that up. It's not that Joel does cannot trust people, but it is clear he does not let his guard down that easily. Case in point, when Joel meets Henry and Sam. It took them a while before he completely trusted them. For Abby and her friends, it was almost instaneous. Why he did so is everyone's guess. However, I kinda see what they may have wanted to portray with this current Joel. Joel has or is trying to move on. His house was filled with things that he likes. He seems to be respected by the people in the town judging by all the flowers people left at his home. Seems like he may be trying be a better person. Not just to Ellie but to everyone else. But without having anything solid to bridge us from TLOU1 Joel and the current Joel, it comes out severly lacking in context and just forces people to formulate theories. I enjoy a story that has a continuous flow. These flash backs served nothing but just force context to conveniently support the events that was happening or is about to happen. It's also one of the things that hurts the pacing so bad. If you are having a hard time taking the crticisms pertaining to Joel's death seriously, a lot of people are way ahead of you as people like me can't take anything in this game's story seriously with how bad it is. |
Saying I'm projecting with nothing concrete is a very convenient argument that doesn't really say much. I could come up with hundreds of reasons why he softened, perhaps something like you mentioned about how he became like a town figurehead. Maybe his past four years has been exactly the same as meeting abby, but they instead join the town. Perhaps Joel hated himself for betraying Ellie like he says in the scene right before that when talking to Tommy. Sometimes people tend to get reckless when they feel they've fucked something up. I could come up with all kinds of ideas because just like in a lot of literature, you don't always know the ins and outs of causation. Sometimes you are required to use your imagination. Generally when parts are left out, it's because in the end, it really doesn't matter, nor is it entertaining or concise to watch every single events causes and effect.
The point being, if you can't bring yourself to suspend disbelief, you are doing a purposeful disservice to the narrative.
Personally, I am happier to have a concise narrative with 20 hours of story that doesn't hold my hand through every characters formative whims. I honestly find that kind of narrative storytelling insulting and childish.
I haven't finished the game, so my opinion on the execution may change, but currently I think the only problem in this argument is that we have a difference in what we each consider to be good storytelling.
KLAMarine said: Naughty Dog should work on an alternate ending where Ellie kills Abby and Ellie approaches Abby's kid (the person on the boat Abby was trying to flee with), explains to the kid why she killed Abby and then tells the kid that if they want revenge, they should come seek her. Ellie is unable to kill the kid but she will defend herself if attacked. The cycle of vengeance will end with one of the two. Dunno, just tossing ideas out there. |
Nah. Its good Ellie's story is done. She moved on at the end. Probably went back to Jackson. Its bittersweet but at least she would find peace.
If anything, ND will follow through the story of the Firefly's. Going with Abby+co since they are the true 'protagonists' of the story.
At iron megalith
Just as a follow-up note, I'm not saying you are wrong to prefer storytelling to be linear, or wrong to want exposition showing Jo getting soft.
I'm saying that personally I can look at the events that happened, and just by noticing it's four years later and everyone is comfortable, I can understand how Joel's situation might have played out. I would rather play and see the murder quickly to establish a plot, than to linearly start the game four years earlier as an aging Joel who is slowly becoming a less violent character over time. That just does not sound enjoyable or interesting or necessary for me to accept that Joel for some reason or another tried to help someone and got deaded.
chakkra said:
If someone you love was murdered while trying to do something good, I think you would be able to see "your side" of the story. |
Well yeah, but that doesn't make it better for a fan of Joel that has had no previous exposure to Abby whatsoever.
theprof00 said:
I have a really hard time taking these criticisms seriously. Furthermore, the whole setup-confrontation-conclusion argument you brought up hinges on you accurately identifying the story elements. You say that the story is all backwards and mixed up and doesn't make sense. But there are hundreds, if not thousands of revenge stories that are written with a similar type of setup. You say that we need to see Abby's story before we see her kill Joel, but do we really? We PLAYED the first game. We know how bad Joel is. For all I care, the first game IS Abby's exposition. Joel is a villain- Despite bonding with him, or liking him, or even agreeing with his actions. Joel is a villain. TLOU is great game specifically due to how the narrative induces compassion for Joel's journey.... If you honestly need more exposition to understand Abby's motives at that part of the game, then I'm afraid to say that it's pretty obvious why. You didn't understand the last of us. Playing through it myself, I was also surprised that Abby was out for revenge. I wrongly assumed that since she was kind of normal and I had been playing as her, she would be a good guy. What's more interesting is that even now, I can't think of a reason to say Abby was wrong to kill Joel. AFAIK, Abby's story begins 4 years earlier when Joel kills her father. AFAIK, Abby could actually be the hero of her own story, climaxing with her killing the target of her vengeance. If you think about it, Ellie's journey in TLOU2 is Abby's exposition. Abby is just Ellie from the future, if you understand my meaning. The difference being that Abby didn't spare her target and Ellie does. The way you described how the story should have been written, we should have played out an entire story of Abby's revenge and then played out Ellie's revenge. Honestly, I can't think of anything more tedious or boring than having to play out the same plot twice. |
In the first game Joel is shown to be extremely suspicious of everyone, even Henry and Sam. That's how he has survived for so long. That, and by being brutal when it has been necessary. He has done some bad things, yes, but losing your daughter like that and being thrust into an apocalyptic situation will make things pretty meaningless for anyone. He was just a regular dad in the beginning.
Ellie made him open up and brought a small measure of hope and meaning into his life again, he was not about to lose a daughter for a second time. So we understand why he did what he did to save Ellie. Players who have kids themselves can of course appreciate this more deeply. He's not a villain in the most basic sense, just a tortured man.
From Abby's point of view, what happened to her father was of course horrible and wrong as well. (By the way, it's not like Ellie's surgery was a surefire thing to save mankind anyways, all they had was an immune girl and a scalpel and high hopes really.) People get that, but it's a multifaceted thing that was handled pretty poorly with how Joel just gets taken out right away, when there were a thousand ways of making something more complex and compelling storywise. Of course it's pretty realistic and impactful in the sense that sometimes horrible things just happen out of nowhere, you don't see them coming and you just have to deal with it. Life is precious and it can be taken away in a second. But the way they did this here is making it really hard to feel sympathy for Abby, and on top of that we are made to play as her afterwards, which is really pushing it. It's intentional of course, ND wanted to shock us but it seems to have backfired pretty badly.
theprof00 said:
Saying I'm projecting with nothing concrete is a very convenient argument that doesn't really say much. I could come up with hundreds of reasons why he softened, perhaps something like you mentioned about how he became like a town figurehead. Maybe his past four years has been exactly the same as meeting abby, but they instead join the town. Perhaps Joel hated himself for betraying Ellie like he says in the scene right before that when talking to Tommy. Sometimes people tend to get reckless when they feel they've fucked something up. I could come up with all kinds of ideas because just like in a lot of literature, you don't always know the ins and outs of causation. Sometimes you are required to use your imagination. Generally when parts are left out, it's because in the end, it really doesn't matter, nor is it entertaining or concise to watch every single events causes and effect. The point being, if you can't bring yourself to suspend disbelief, you are doing a purposeful disservice to the narrative. Personally, I am happier to have a concise narrative with 20 hours of story that doesn't hold my hand through every characters formative whims. I honestly find that kind of narrative storytelling insulting and childish. I haven't finished the game, so my opinion on the execution may change, but currently I think the only problem in this argument is that we have a difference in what we each consider to be good storytelling. |
Suspension of disbelief does not apply in this scenario. There are boundaries to that. When your characters act so out of place, that is not an excuse that you can use. That's outright bullshit.
Last edited by iron_megalith - on 25 June 2020I am glad that I was not the only one here who loved the story. I think ND did the right thing by not re-telling yet another Joel & Ellie story, instead they focused on Ellie and a brand new character.
I kind of hope this is the last game in the series, though that's how I felt about the first game as well, and look how great this one turned out. I know it's not a popular opinion right now, but I think that Druckman managed to grow into one of the finest storytellers in the gaming industry
Edit:
Vote the Mayor for Mayor!
John2290 said:
Neil, is that you? |
It's kind of off-putting for not being able to express my love for a game without having some vitriol thrown into my face. I didn't talk down on anyone for disliking the game, nor would I do it, so in the very least if you don't have anything even remotely constructive to say I would appreciate if you would not respond to my posts in this thread anymore.
Vote the Mayor for Mayor!
John2290 said:
Calm down, it was a joke. Sure, I won't reply again. |
Yeah, I know it was a joke, and now I feel a bit silly lashing out like that But I guess this was something that was built up in me for the last couple of days. Every post I made in most forums seems to put me on some kind of "wrong side of the fence" position for really enjoying this game. Still, reading it back after a short time made me realize that a). it's my fault for taking games way to seriously, becoming defensive, and b). I really need to sleep more :)))
Vote the Mayor for Mayor!