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Forums - Sony Discussion - (SPOILER ALERT) Free discussion of TLOU2 with story included

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How do you rate TLOU2 story

1 8 14.55%
 
2 1 1.82%
 
3 5 9.09%
 
4 3 5.45%
 
5 5 9.09%
 
6 7 12.73%
 
7 4 7.27%
 
8 4 7.27%
 
9 7 12.73%
 
10 11 20.00%
 
Total:55
theprof00 said:
KLXVER said:

Yes. He and Ellie argues when Tommy doesnt really want them to seek revenge. Ellie says she is going. So Tommy goes and tries to make sure Ellie is safe.

Then at the end he expect her to go after Abby alone. It doesnt really fit.

Perhaps it's the 'this is your fight' trope?

Like, Tommy did everything he could to bring them to justice to keep Ellie safe, but then Ellie shows up anyway and he realizes it's not for him to prevent her from fulfilling her destiny?

It's kind of a common trope in narrative

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HelpingWouldBeKillstealing

"You are in trouble. Big trouble. It is painful — emotionally, physically, or both. You could come to harm, maybe you could even get killed.

There is this person. He has power, he is able to help you. And it's not like he's too busy to be able to spend the time on you.

But he cares about you and wishes you well. And that's why he won't help you. Because he thinks that you need the experience. Or self-confidence. Or reputation. Because he thinks that solving your problems for you would be bad for your growth. Or that showing doubts in your ability would be impolite. And so, you are on your own."

Yeah, I dont know. Ellie says she doesnt want revenge, so why would Tommy be angry with her for that? Im going with my shot in the head theory.lol



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KLXVER said:
theprof00 said:

Perhaps it's the 'this is your fight' trope?

Like, Tommy did everything he could to bring them to justice to keep Ellie safe, but then Ellie shows up anyway and he realizes it's not for him to prevent her from fulfilling her destiny?

It's kind of a common trope in narrative

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HelpingWouldBeKillstealing

"You are in trouble. Big trouble. It is painful — emotionally, physically, or both. You could come to harm, maybe you could even get killed.

There is this person. He has power, he is able to help you. And it's not like he's too busy to be able to spend the time on you.

But he cares about you and wishes you well. And that's why he won't help you. Because he thinks that you need the experience. Or self-confidence. Or reputation. Because he thinks that solving your problems for you would be bad for your growth. Or that showing doubts in your ability would be impolite. And so, you are on your own."

Yeah, I dont know. Ellie says she doesnt want revenge, so why would Tommy be angry with her for that? Im going with my shot in the head theory.lol

I dunno haha i haven't gotten to that part yet. I'm just not ready to say whether it would appear out of place, just offering a suggestion to explain how a character might act differently based on a common narrative tool.



theprof00 said:
KLXVER said:

Yeah, I dont know. Ellie says she doesnt want revenge, so why would Tommy be angry with her for that? Im going with my shot in the head theory.lol

I dunno haha i haven't gotten to that part yet. I'm just not ready to say whether it would appear out of place, just offering a suggestion to explain how a character might act differently based on a common narrative tool.

Yeah, your guess is as good as mine. It was just the only thing I felt was out of character in this game. Let me know what you think once you played it.



John2290 said:
I don't wanna speak too soon but Abbys section is waaaaay better written than Ellies section and the side characters for Abbys are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better developed and not only that but they are given a chance, unlike Jessie for example. The dialouge alone is just so much more meaningful and impactful in and out of scenes, like I've said before they really should have aged Ellie and co up and given more time with certain characters from the start. That said, I really hope I'm close to finishing now.

Where abouts are you?



So just wanted to bring up something bc I'm playing it right now and came across something interesting.

Someone earlier said it doesn't make sense, or it's poorly written to not kill Ellie and Tommy. So the interesting thing is, this exact question is addressed in game but without definitive resolution. What this means is that the writer was self aware of the issue of leaving Ellie and Tommy. Meaning, that the scene is intentionally written bc there is something more complex that the player does not yet understand.

Ie; if they were self aware enough to know it was an issue, they would've rewrote the death. Leaving it as is, means it was intentional.



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theprof00 said:
iron_megalith said:

Suspension of disbelief does not apply in this scenario. There are boundaries to that. When your characters act so out of place, that is not an excuse that you can use. That's outright bullshit.

My problem with your argument is that you're simply exerting your opinion as the final word.

It's odd how people can defend Joel becoming morally ambiguous after going through apocalypse, but can't allow a hint of understanding that he also may have softened. Even if he is the exact same Joel from 4 years prior, we never have evidence of Joel being difficult to convince. Despite everyone's referencing of Henry and Sam, it literally took 1 minute for Joel to vet Henry, a person who ambushed them. Ellie offers to join up, Joel rebuts, and then Henry says "we have a hideout, we can rest up there"......and Joel says "alright, take us there".

Or consider this, Joel grew this town from 20 to 400 in 4 years. That means over 300 strangers and wanderers and survivors. Given Joel's standing in the community, it's not hard to imagine that he brought a major chunk of those people in from the wilderness. Sure he may have vetted them all in some super cautious way, but like I said, we have no evidence of that. On top of which, even the size of the town and the love and respect overly displayed towards Joel would serve as positive reinforcement to a "gather and grow" mentality, so perhaps in 4 years his priorities have changed.

But all of this is irrelevant in the long run, I could list myriad reasons. I never even considered Joel to have made some mistake because like I said earlier, these people wouldn't even have killed him before learning his name. I've even beaten TLOU a dozen times, and played it on stream twice the week before part 2 came out. To me, nothing felt out of place about him going to Abby's hideout.

I feel that all you really wanted in the story was a definitive reason as to how he would end up in that situation, but even if the writers came out and gave you the explanation and background or put it in the game as DLC, would you even be able to accept it? 

The difference between your opinion and mine is I allign with what the story has shown us. You on the other hand are just theorizing. Assumptions mean nothing in this argument. This applies to both you and I.

The problem was not about Joel softening up. The problem here is that there was nothing to ease that in. It's like John Wick taking a softer stance in the upcoming sequel despite how John Wick 3 ended. They will have to sell that idea in a compelling manner.



John2290 said:
KLXVER said:

Yes. He and Ellie argues when Tommy doesnt really want them to seek revenge. Ellie says she is going. So Tommy goes and tries to make sure Ellie is safe.

Then at the end he expect her to go after Abby alone. It doesnt really fit.

You have to stop questioning it. I started enjoying this game more again after I made it a point to suspend my disbelief and not compare anything to the first one. The more you question, the more it all falls apart and reveals how shoddily it was put together. Forget it as a story based game and just a game with a story. 

Its really just a small thing I found a bit weird. Nothing that comes close to changing my opinion on the game.



iron_megalith said:
theprof00 said:

My problem with your argument is that you're simply exerting your opinion as the final word.

It's odd how people can defend Joel becoming morally ambiguous after going through apocalypse, but can't allow a hint of understanding that he also may have softened. Even if he is the exact same Joel from 4 years prior, we never have evidence of Joel being difficult to convince. Despite everyone's referencing of Henry and Sam, it literally took 1 minute for Joel to vet Henry, a person who ambushed them. Ellie offers to join up, Joel rebuts, and then Henry says "we have a hideout, we can rest up there"......and Joel says "alright, take us there".

Or consider this, Joel grew this town from 20 to 400 in 4 years. That means over 300 strangers and wanderers and survivors. Given Joel's standing in the community, it's not hard to imagine that he brought a major chunk of those people in from the wilderness. Sure he may have vetted them all in some super cautious way, but like I said, we have no evidence of that. On top of which, even the size of the town and the love and respect overly displayed towards Joel would serve as positive reinforcement to a "gather and grow" mentality, so perhaps in 4 years his priorities have changed.

But all of this is irrelevant in the long run, I could list myriad reasons. I never even considered Joel to have made some mistake because like I said earlier, these people wouldn't even have killed him before learning his name. I've even beaten TLOU a dozen times, and played it on stream twice the week before part 2 came out. To me, nothing felt out of place about him going to Abby's hideout.

I feel that all you really wanted in the story was a definitive reason as to how he would end up in that situation, but even if the writers came out and gave you the explanation and background or put it in the game as DLC, would you even be able to accept it? 

The difference between your opinion and mine is I allign with what the story has shown us. You on the other hand are just theorizing. Assumptions mean nothing in this argument. This applies to both you and I.

The problem was not about Joel softening up. The problem here is that there was nothing to ease that in. It's like John Wick taking a softer stance in the upcoming sequel despite how John Wick 3 ended. They will have to sell that idea in a compelling manner.

Joel accepts Henry's invitation to his hideout within 60 seconds of meeting him (I can find the exact amount of time, if you wish). Joel and Abby fight off a horde for nearly 5 minutes. Henry ambushes Joel when they first meet, in an area where Joel has been ambushed several times already. Abby is actually about to die from a zombie, and Joel saves her, and conversely Abby saves him.

If you'd like, feel free to add as many examples of how Joel going in to Abby's hideout was character breaking, and I'll show you how they are wrong. Personally, I just played through TLOU twice in the week before TLOU2, so I'm not the kind of person who watches a clickbait youtube video and just swallows the whole load. You don't actually align with the story. You are aligning with an idolized version of a faded memory.

Secondly, there is still no need to ease the narrative in like that. The scene is called a "narrative hook", the entire point of a narrative hook is to pull someone emotionally into the story. 



iron_megalith said:

The difference between your opinion and mine is I allign with what the story has shown us. You on the other hand are just theorizing. Assumptions mean nothing in this argument. This applies to both you and I.

The problem was not about Joel softening up. The problem here is that there was nothing to ease that in. It's like John Wick taking a softer stance in the upcoming sequel despite how John Wick 3 ended. They will have to sell that idea in a compelling manner.

Also quick follow up question:

Have you actually even played the Last of Us? Like, do you have ps trophies from TLOU? 

This is something you said: "Case in point, when Joel meets Henry and Sam. It took them a while before he completely trusted them. For Abby and her friends, it was almost instaneous. Why he did so is everyone's guess."

but... it's the opposite? Im honestly confused how you can have the story so backwards, but act like an authority on the story.



theprof00 said:
iron_megalith said:

The difference between your opinion and mine is I allign with what the story has shown us. You on the other hand are just theorizing. Assumptions mean nothing in this argument. This applies to both you and I.

The problem was not about Joel softening up. The problem here is that there was nothing to ease that in. It's like John Wick taking a softer stance in the upcoming sequel despite how John Wick 3 ended. They will have to sell that idea in a compelling manner.

Also quick follow up question:

Have you actually even played the Last of Us? Like, do you have ps trophies from TLOU? 

This is something you said: "Case in point, when Joel meets Henry and Sam. It took them a while before he completely trusted them. For Abby and her friends, it was almost instaneous. Why he did so is everyone's guess."

but... it's the opposite? Im honestly confused how you can have the story so backwards, but act like an authority on the story.

What does my fucking trophies have to do with this argument? You want me to share my PSN info here just to validate my arguments? If you want to discuss the story, stick with that please.

And also how is it different in this scenario? Is it because Joel did the saving this time around and put himself in danger? Well let me tell you that Joel isn't really a fan of taking risks just for anybody else. At least in the first game.

Even if we disregard Joel, what about Tommy completely inviting strangers he barely even spoke to? If you say he was just expressing his gratitude, they could have done that in a more believable manner that is in line with the premise and the character's behavior. They just acted as if the trauma they experienced in TLOU1 never ever happened.

Last edited by iron_megalith - on 26 June 2020