Hahahaha that was a fun read.

Interesting you mention you prefer the second part of the game, most people who dont like the story actually prefer the first part.

No I don't need to see them, I'm just confused. Like I said, you have the two backwards. My point being that Joel accepted Henry faster than he accepts Abby. Your "case in point" ie, the best example you could use, was Henry. And your Henry example shows him as less cautious. Now you're saying Joel wouldn't even have saved Abby in the first place. But in your own words...that's an assumption. 

Regarding Tommy, in what way do you think it even matters that he invited them? Inviting them had no impact on Joel's death whatsoever. At best, offering home and help as collateral potentially could have dissuaded any violence, and maybe that's why he offered. it's another assumption, yes but it doesn't support your case either. 

Regardless, you won't even address that I'm right about Henry, which is making me second guess even having this debate with you because it comes off as stubborn, and that means I'll just be wasting my time on someone who has clearly already made their mind up.

Kind of sad now I don't have anything like this to play now. Maybe I'll have another pop at RDR2, since i only put a few hours into that.

@John2290 What did you think of Abby? A large number of people hate on her because of her actions in the first few hours in the game. Its brutal, but it actually mirrors Ellie and Joel's story.

I thought Abby had the best parts of the game. I would replay the game just for the Hospital level alone. Also like a true action hero in a zombie world. Going fisty cuffs with infected. Stronk lol

Idd, she was probably the most well written and consistent throughout the story. I think if they didn't add her in the game ND wouldn't have gotten so much stick about it. Its a shame because of her appearance and what she did, people just suddenly shrug her off and instantly hate the character as you are basically forced to play as her for half the game. But like with all stories there is more to it than one side and I found it a very interesting take. I mean I really like Joel's character in the first game but it didn't hinder my enjoyment for the rest of the game. Lets not forget that Joel wasn't innocent, he was a part of the raiders before he met Ellie and as murdered as well as tortured a lot of people.

Yeah Ellie's campaign was decent and a bit more open. Also a bit over the place and it did kill some of the pacing by adding Abby in the equation. I wouldn't mind a chronological order play though campaign. With cut scenes and all.

I finished it and this one of the best gaming experiences I've ever had. This was just amazing. I think I still slightly give the edge to FF7 R as far as GOTY so far but it was a tough decision.

First off after playing the game I can 100% understand why everyone who read the spoilers were pissed. If I read these spoilers I'm not even sure I would have bought the game at that point. So glad I didn't read anything and nothing got spoiled for me. I pretty much suspected Joel would die but I wasn't sure after that. People were so mad I thought there was a very strong chance Ellie died as well.

What ND did in this game was completely unexpected. I think I saw someone else put in on another site that said it best. This isn't the story we wanted but it's the story we needed in a way. When I finished TLOU I remember at the end thinking while I understand what Joel is doing here and I would do the same for my own daughter without question this is a very grey area and probably not the right thing to do. For ND to come right back to that ending choice and give you the other perspective was not something I expected but I absolutely loved it.

I felt the game dragged a bit with Abbey (they should have removed the whole arm cutting situation and went straight to the island situation). Man did I love this idea though when I saw that Joel killed Abbeys dad I was just like "Damn ND you got me". From that moment on I was hooked to the game. Playing as Abbey leaving all your friends behind knowing they would be dead when you come back, just such great story telling.

I can understand why a lot of people didn't like this game I really can. Some people are so invested in Joel and Ellie that this isn't going to sit well with them. If you had asked me if I would be ok with this story I would have told you flat out, No. This just worked though. Playing the game watching it all unfold it was just an amazing experience. It's why I think Neil was emphasizing recently just play the game. That you have to experience it. He's right. Experiencing it might not be enough to convince everyone but I think a lot of people would be pleasantly surprised. Maybe I'm wrong I don't know.

What I do know is I loved this game. I love that there are still devs out there willing to take chances.

?????????  Holy shit.... Just fucking wow. You are just too fucking hilarious.

Joel beat Henry up when they first met. Although that was done in retaliation. Next, he nearly shot him after waking up by the river bed because Henry bailed out on him.

Also, if you played the game you will even notice that even if they are helping each other, it's a means to an end kind of thing. Only after the sniper area where they started to bond with each other very closely. Also, let me remind you that Joel left a whole family in the intro of TLOU1 just in case you conveniently forgot about that. Him being heroic to random people as well was not in his character. Tommy? Maybe.

But like I said, whatever you and I say about Joel's change are just assumptions because we do not have any events to bridge us to what we currently see about Joel. How hard is that to understand?

Also, if you think Tommy's action doesn't matter you clearly are deluded about this whole argument about characters acting out of character. Here's Tommy being on guard about random outsiders just in case you forget about this as well.

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It makes sense given the premise of the story and was further supported when the plant was raided. So why does it seem like Tommy acts like there are no more bandits or people with bad intentions lurking around? It took them a few lines before he callously invites them into the town. 

By judging your responses here, it seems to me that you are the one that has not finished the first game or has completely forgotten about it. It's funny that you call me out saying I haven't finished the first game when you're willing to let such trash story writing to go through in the sequel.

Keep it up lad!

Yeah I mean a major death was highly suggested A LOT with the previews and trailers. Even if that original quote didn't even make it to the game. That was one spoiler I couldn't avoid but I wasn't mad. That was always going to be the trigger to push Ellie over the edge. I'm glad they didn't go with Ellie/Joel route again, even though i loved the flashback scene with them in it.

It's not like you said. You were very specifically saying that you were using facts and I was using assumptions.

And again, it's not like I think Joel is the helping type, but we know for a fact that Joel and Tommy go on sweeps. It's like their community job. Happening upon someone and saving them and just coincidentally getting funneled into the house was part of the bad luck. They even mention not expecting to run into thousands of zombies. 

With Henry, the reason It's important to this discussion is because I'm trying to get you to see from the point of view that Henry was worthy of more suspicion  than Abby. If there is a person just there about to die, it just wouldn't occur to most that it's a trap bc if they die there's suddenly no trap. What kind of trap could that possibly be? Even after Henry abandons them, he still doesn't kill him, even though he knows that Henry is not trustworthy due to circumstances. 

But yes, all I was saying is that we are both making assumptions. It just seemed for a while, you were saying with full certainty "Joel would never do that", "they broke his character". That's just an assumption based on a game that takes place 6 years prior for a playable period of like 5 days in a 25+ year apocalyptic setting.

Jesus Fucking Christ. LMAO.

You even highlighted the whole thing and you still managed to fuck up your argument by not reading my statement properly. The keyword in my statement is about Joel's change. This game lacks any sort of event that concretely supported his character transformation. You don't just change a character's behavior without properly having them go through some sort of epiphany. Even in real life, people don't change for no reason. Also, you cannot pass judgement without knowing the proper information. How did a seemingly good kid turn out to be a serial killer when he grew up?

It doesn't matter what those bits showed us when we don't even have anything that showed Joel trying to repent for his past actions. Even in the flashback scenes, he argued with Ellie saying that there was nothing that they could have done for those infected. Hell, he even doubled down on the ending by saying he would save Ellie all over again which meant denying the world of a chance for a cure.

Just to be clear if you still know what we're arguing about. The argument is about characters acting out of place. My arguments are all based on Joel's behavior in TLOU1 and how the difference in TLOU2 does not make much sense from a story telling point of view. The reason for this is we do not see a journey from TLOU1 Joel(ending) to TLOU2 Joel. The same can be applied with Tommy. But then again, we never really had any proper focus with Tommy which I find one of the interesting characters in this series. The only moments we got were from TLOU1 which were still Joelcentric, and a flashbacks in TLOU2.

With regards to Henry, I already said my piece. Don't make me repeat it. You're just supporting my argument. You can't say this is any different from Abby's case. You just don't walk into a room with a group of random strangers and potentially offer yourself to be mugged and killed. TLOU1 was consistent with its premise. This world is unforgiving and there are a lot of people who are desperate. His complete utter trust makes no sense in this game.

I'd rather we first had a game where Abby was actually being developed with it leading to her a choice of killing Joel. Abby was demonized so unfairly with how they structured the game. It was a struggle to get into her story. Like I'm not even mad at her. I just can't feel anything for her.