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Forums - Politics Discussion - (POSSIBLE SPOILERS INSIDE) The agenda and political discussion of Naughty Dog

 

Have politics damaged the quality of ND games

No 39 41.94%
 
Yes 54 58.06%
 
Total:93
Immersiveunreality on 21 June 2020
Runa216 said:
It's threads like these that get me banned from places like this, becuase it's so very hard to not just come in here and rant about how terrible some people are for having clearly gross and frankly abhorrent beliefs.

An opinion is that Marvel is better than DC.
A political view is that it's important to offer social services to less fortunate people at the cost of higher taxes.

But this? this thread and the critique lobbed at naughty Dog for their inclusion in The Last of Us part II? That's just thinly veiled bigotry and intolerance. If the lot of you could accept that this isn't about politics but your own discomfort with having something you disagree with given more representation, we'd make a whole lot more progress on the matter. If you could accept that inclusion is not an agenda and it's not being 'shoved in your face' and that it's just another means to express art and write stories with more nuanced characters, then we could actually move forward and maybe understand wHY you feel that way.

But as long as people are convinced that any inclusion of black, female, lesbian, transgender, or any other minorities is just a political agenda (or keep pushing that narrative), we'll never be able to have a discussion about it. Gay people exist. Transgender people exist. Minorities exist. If more pieces of media include them, it's just a matter of adjusting to the reality of the world around us. STOP ACTING LIKE INCLUSION IS EXCLUSION. It's not the same thing. Inclusion is something that should be normalized, not ostracized; the more regressive people get about it, the worse things are going to get.

So hurry up and come to terms with the reality that some people are just bigots. This isn't a hill worth dying on, inclusion is not done at the expense of you weak-minded white males, and that having non-traditional heroes and characters isn't an affront to your snowflake sensibilities.

I shouldn't have to repeat this to a bunch of adults. You're not 12 years old anymore and you shouldn't be shriveling up at the thought of some transgender or lesbian person being in a major blockbuster game just becuase you're not comfortable with homosexuality or transgenderism. Grow up, seriously. Oh, and don't even bother trying to justify it with some bullshit excuse about how 'oh but they went too far' or conjuring up some other justification for your ignorance. It's no different than hypermasculine, heteronormative media, it's just on the other side of the spectrum and that scares you for whatever childish reason.

Bolded:Some of the characters that are included are inserted in such a way that it is logical to dislike them regarding their placement in the story and you are the one that can not see past the skincolor and diversity and just thinks people in this thread dislike them because of that,that makes you the ignorant one.

Sec bold: And inclusion is not done by people with such a bleak view on others,it makes the implementation distorted.

You do not need to like anyone because they're diverse and the structure of a story needs to be designed to make us care about those certain characters and not make them villians for many like this game did with Abby.



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EnricoPallazzo on 21 June 2020
Runa216 said:
It's threads like these that get me banned from places like this, becuase it's so very hard to not just come in here and rant about how terrible some people are for having clearly gross and frankly abhorrent beliefs.

An opinion is that Marvel is better than DC.
A political view is that it's important to offer social services to less fortunate people at the cost of higher taxes.

But this? this thread and the critique lobbed at naughty Dog for their inclusion in The Last of Us part II? That's just thinly veiled bigotry and intolerance. If the lot of you could accept that this isn't about politics but your own discomfort with having something you disagree with given more representation, we'd make a whole lot more progress on the matter. If you could accept that inclusion is not an agenda and it's not being 'shoved in your face' and that it's just another means to express art and write stories with more nuanced characters, then we could actually move forward and maybe understand wHY you feel that way.

But as long as people are convinced that any inclusion of black, female, lesbian, transgender, or any other minorities is just a political agenda (or keep pushing that narrative), we'll never be able to have a discussion about it. Gay people exist. Transgender people exist. Minorities exist. If more pieces of media include them, it's just a matter of adjusting to the reality of the world around us. STOP ACTING LIKE INCLUSION IS EXCLUSION. It's not the same thing. Inclusion is something that should be normalized, not ostracized; the more regressive people get about it, the worse things are going to get.

So hurry up and come to terms with the reality that some people are just bigots. This isn't a hill worth dying on, inclusion is not done at the expense of you weak-minded white males, and that having non-traditional heroes and characters isn't an affront to your snowflake sensibilities.

I shouldn't have to repeat this to a bunch of adults. You're not 12 years old anymore and you shouldn't be shriveling up at the thought of some transgender or lesbian person being in a major blockbuster game just becuase you're not comfortable with homosexuality or transgenderism. Grow up, seriously. Oh, and don't even bother trying to justify it with some bullshit excuse about how 'oh but they went too far' or conjuring up some other justification for your ignorance. It's no different than hypermasculine, heteronormative media, it's just on the other side of the spectrum and that scares you for whatever childish reason.

Your failure to understand why people complain about the way those minorities are introduced in the game, although people in forums like this try to explain time and time again, is a huge part of the problem why we can't have discussions like this. It's like trying to explain something for a, well... 12 year old.



pikashoe on 21 June 2020

Ok this game just completely falls apart narratvely, there wasn't enough story to fill this 25 hour long game. The story isn't even that interesting just a run of the mill revenge plot with the message that revenge is bad in end, this could have been ok if it was well told but it's not. the original game had a basic plot but it worked so well because it was really well told with fleshed out and relatable characters. There really aren't many shocks or surprises in this new story it's all very predictable.
A huge issue they have is attempting to redeem Abby's character. This could have worked if they changed some things but as is cannot work. The issue isn't that Abby kills Joel, she has motive to do so, it is the circumstances surrounding this that cause issue.
First Joel saves her life, this instantly turns the audience against her because she is given a good reason here to doubt herself but doesn't. She never second guess what she is about to do to Joel here which makes it difficult to root for her in future. If she seemed conflicted here it would have given us something.
Second is the way she revels in brutally torturing Joel. This is in stark contrast with Ellie who when she tortures and kills a person is completely horrified with what she has done. We are never given this with Abby, she never at any point shows any remorse for what she did. This just makes her come across as sadistic.
Third she does this with Ellie crying and screaming for her to stop and she does it right in front of her. This just makes no sense at this point she doesn't know or dislike Ellie why would she do this with her watching? A better way to do this would be to have Ellie's reaction cause her to second guess herself, show us hints that this person isn't just a monstrous psychopath.
The big issue is that Abby is just poorly written. Along with most of the new characters being very under written. All that being said there are still a lot of things to like in this game. The gameplay is mostly good, it looks and sounds gorgeous, there are still some good character moments. There are some great set pieces in the game particularly in the second half. The game also does a great job at building tension. The conflict between the scars and wlf is interesting and the scars themselves are really interesting to go up against.



Xxain on 21 June 2020
pikashoe said:
Ok this game just completely falls apart narratvely, there wasn't enough story to fill this 25 hour long game. The story isn't even that interesting just a run of the mill revenge plot with the message that revenge is bad in end, this could have been ok if it was well told but it's not. the original game had a basic plot but it worked so well because it was really well told with fleshed out and relatable characters. There really aren't many shocks or surprises in this new story it's all very predictable.
A huge issue they have is attempting to redeem Abby's character. This could have worked if they changed some things but as is cannot work. The issue isn't that Abby kills Joel, she has motive to do so, it is the circumstances surrounding this that cause issue.
First Joel saves her life, this instantly turns the audience against her because she is given a good reason here to doubt herself but doesn't. She never second guess what she is about to do to Joel here which makes it difficult to root for her in future. If she seemed conflicted here it would have given us something.
Second is the way she revels in brutally torturing Joel. This is in stark contrast with Ellie who when she tortures and kills a person is completely horrified with what she has done. We are never given this with Abby, she never at any point shows any remorse for what she did. This just makes her come across as sadistic.
Third she does this with Ellie crying and screaming for her to stop and she does it right in front of her. This just makes no sense at this point she doesn't know or dislike Ellie why would she do this with her watching? A better way to do this would be to have Ellie's reaction cause her to second guess herself, show us hints that this person isn't just a monstrous psychopath.
The big issue is that Abby is just poorly written. Along with most of the new characters being very under written. All that being said there are still a lot of things to like in this game. The gameplay is mostly good, it looks and sounds gorgeous, there are still some good character moments. There are some great set pieces in the game particularly in the second half. The game also does a great job at building tension. The conflict between the scars and wlf is interesting and the scars themselves are really interesting to go up against.

I disagree with this. Abby has been bent on revenge for a looooong time. Your idea only works if it is a spontaneous idea or something that is in heavy confliction. Neither of those is case,  Abby wants Joel dead at all cost. When you have growing that revenge for that long and have finally the opportunity of course she'd snap, of course she'd be unremorseful. That is what Abby is to suppose to represent. What happens when revenge consumes you.



Xxain on 21 June 2020
EnricoPallazzo said:
Runa216 said:
It's threads like these that get me banned from places like this, becuase it's so very hard to not just come in here and rant about how terrible some people are for having clearly gross and frankly abhorrent beliefs.

An opinion is that Marvel is better than DC.
A political view is that it's important to offer social services to less fortunate people at the cost of higher taxes.

But this? this thread and the critique lobbed at naughty Dog for their inclusion in The Last of Us part II? That's just thinly veiled bigotry and intolerance. If the lot of you could accept that this isn't about politics but your own discomfort with having something you disagree with given more representation, we'd make a whole lot more progress on the matter. If you could accept that inclusion is not an agenda and it's not being 'shoved in your face' and that it's just another means to express art and write stories with more nuanced characters, then we could actually move forward and maybe understand wHY you feel that way.

But as long as people are convinced that any inclusion of black, female, lesbian, transgender, or any other minorities is just a political agenda (or keep pushing that narrative), we'll never be able to have a discussion about it. Gay people exist. Transgender people exist. Minorities exist. If more pieces of media include them, it's just a matter of adjusting to the reality of the world around us. STOP ACTING LIKE INCLUSION IS EXCLUSION. It's not the same thing. Inclusion is something that should be normalized, not ostracized; the more regressive people get about it, the worse things are going to get.

So hurry up and come to terms with the reality that some people are just bigots. This isn't a hill worth dying on, inclusion is not done at the expense of you weak-minded white males, and that having non-traditional heroes and characters isn't an affront to your snowflake sensibilities.

I shouldn't have to repeat this to a bunch of adults. You're not 12 years old anymore and you shouldn't be shriveling up at the thought of some transgender or lesbian person being in a major blockbuster game just becuase you're not comfortable with homosexuality or transgenderism. Grow up, seriously. Oh, and don't even bother trying to justify it with some bullshit excuse about how 'oh but they went too far' or conjuring up some other justification for your ignorance. It's no different than hypermasculine, heteronormative media, it's just on the other side of the spectrum and that scares you for whatever childish reason.

Your failure to understand why people complain about the way those minorities are introduced in the game, although people in forums like this try to explain time and time again, is a huge part of the problem why we can't have discussions like this. It's like trying to explain something for a, well... 12 year old.

Step up to the plate then.



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pikashoe on 21 June 2020
Xxain said:
pikashoe said:
Ok this game just completely falls apart narratvely, there wasn't enough story to fill this 25 hour long game. The story isn't even that interesting just a run of the mill revenge plot with the message that revenge is bad in end, this could have been ok if it was well told but it's not. the original game had a basic plot but it worked so well because it was really well told with fleshed out and relatable characters. There really aren't many shocks or surprises in this new story it's all very predictable.
A huge issue they have is attempting to redeem Abby's character. This could have worked if they changed some things but as is cannot work. The issue isn't that Abby kills Joel, she has motive to do so, it is the circumstances surrounding this that cause issue.
First Joel saves her life, this instantly turns the audience against her because she is given a good reason here to doubt herself but doesn't. She never second guess what she is about to do to Joel here which makes it difficult to root for her in future. If she seemed conflicted here it would have given us something.
Second is the way she revels in brutally torturing Joel. This is in stark contrast with Ellie who when she tortures and kills a person is completely horrified with what she has done. We are never given this with Abby, she never at any point shows any remorse for what she did. This just makes her come across as sadistic.
Third she does this with Ellie crying and screaming for her to stop and she does it right in front of her. This just makes no sense at this point she doesn't know or dislike Ellie why would she do this with her watching? A better way to do this would be to have Ellie's reaction cause her to second guess herself, show us hints that this person isn't just a monstrous psychopath.
The big issue is that Abby is just poorly written. Along with most of the new characters being very under written. All that being said there are still a lot of things to like in this game. The gameplay is mostly good, it looks and sounds gorgeous, there are still some good character moments. There are some great set pieces in the game particularly in the second half. The game also does a great job at building tension. The conflict between the scars and wlf is interesting and the scars themselves are really interesting to go up against.

I disagree with this. Abby has been bent on revenge for a looooong time. Your idea only works if it is a spontaneous idea or something that is in heavy confliction. Neither of those is case,  Abby wants Joel dead at all cost. When you have growing that revenge for that long and have finally the opportunity of course she'd snap, of course she'd be unremorseful. That is what Abby is to suppose to represent. What happens when revenge consumes you.

None what you said goes against what I said. She is still irredeemable after that point. Nothing they do can ever make her likable after that point.

The game even proves what you say wrong, Ellie is hell bent on revenge, but we still see her show regret, remorse, conflict and horror at the things she has done.



Xxain on 21 June 2020
pikashoe said:
Xxain said:

I disagree with this. Abby has been bent on revenge for a looooong time. Your idea only works if it is a spontaneous idea or something that is in heavy confliction. Neither of those is case,  Abby wants Joel dead at all cost. When you have growing that revenge for that long and have finally the opportunity of course she'd snap, of course she'd be unremorseful. That is what Abby is to suppose to represent. What happens when revenge consumes you.

None what you said goes against what I said. She is still irredeemable after that point. Nothing they do can ever make her likable after that point.

The game even proves what you say wrong, Ellie is hell bent on revenge, but we still see her show regret, remorse, conflict and horror at the things she has done.

That is the point.

I don't you understand the dynamics between the two. Both seek revenge.

Abby is completely dominated by her revenge. She possessed by it. She lives for that revenge.

Ellie does not. Ellie, ironically, is what you describe in your previous post.



pikashoe on 21 June 2020
Xxain said:
pikashoe said:

None what you said goes against what I said. She is still irredeemable after that point. Nothing they do can ever make her likable after that point.

The game even proves what you say wrong, Ellie is hell bent on revenge, but we still see her show regret, remorse, conflict and horror at the things she has done.

That is the point.

I don't you understand the dynamics between the two. Both seek revenge.

Abby is completely dominated by her revenge. She possessed by it. She lives for that revenge.

Ellie does not. Ellie, ironically, is what you describe in your previous post.

That very obviously isn't the point. If that were the point then they wouldn't try to get us to like her for so long. We would never play as Abby if that were the point. You are not getting what I am trying to say at all.



iron_megalith on 21 June 2020
Xxain said:
iron_megalith said:

Wait. Are comparing apples to oranges right now? TLOUs premise has established that society itself has collapsed. People are trying to get by in quarantine zones that are probably the worst shit holes that you can imagine. Remember, TLOU had people eating rats. Vanity is out of the question at this point.

Not gonna say Uncharted is outlandish but it sticks to the premise it has built. Nathan Drake and his obsession over history ,artifacts and his thirst for thrills propels him to hunt for treasures. Armed organizations are after it as well who are equally as hungry as he is. Guns are on the table. You do the math. It's fair game.

So I don't really get what the hell you're trying to say at this point. Suspension of disbelief? There's a boundary to that one by the way. A story needs to be consistent with how it depicts its set pieces.

No no no. You missed my point.

I have always found it incredibly unbelievable that Nathan Drake, 1 man, is capable of killing an entire militia (this includes choppers) with no obvious form of military training(even if he did ... 1 man??), but we have several users in this thread mentioning that Nadine, trained black woman, beat both Nate and another character up at the same time as if that is unbelievable..... I am reading that correctly?

Why are we over assessing the possibility of Abby. We are very picky and choosey when we want the realistic card. Not to mention, there is this attitude that in a world where survival is a everyday struggle, people cant find time enjoy themselves. You say vanity should be out of the question but Doesn't Ellie have a tattoo? 

Uh.. You said we are assuming that the trans thing was true. Not necessarily

Also, a tattoo is far less demanding than a complicated cosmetic surgery. Tattoos were already being done by ancient civilizations. Even the current indigenous tribes are able to do that with primitive tools.



Runa216 on 21 June 2020
EnricoPallazzo said:
Runa216 said:
It's threads like these that get me banned from places like this, becuase it's so very hard to not just come in here and rant about how terrible some people are for having clearly gross and frankly abhorrent beliefs.

An opinion is that Marvel is better than DC.
A political view is that it's important to offer social services to less fortunate people at the cost of higher taxes.

But this? this thread and the critique lobbed at naughty Dog for their inclusion in The Last of Us part II? That's just thinly veiled bigotry and intolerance. If the lot of you could accept that this isn't about politics but your own discomfort with having something you disagree with given more representation, we'd make a whole lot more progress on the matter. If you could accept that inclusion is not an agenda and it's not being 'shoved in your face' and that it's just another means to express art and write stories with more nuanced characters, then we could actually move forward and maybe understand wHY you feel that way.

But as long as people are convinced that any inclusion of black, female, lesbian, transgender, or any other minorities is just a political agenda (or keep pushing that narrative), we'll never be able to have a discussion about it. Gay people exist. Transgender people exist. Minorities exist. If more pieces of media include them, it's just a matter of adjusting to the reality of the world around us. STOP ACTING LIKE INCLUSION IS EXCLUSION. It's not the same thing. Inclusion is something that should be normalized, not ostracized; the more regressive people get about it, the worse things are going to get.

So hurry up and come to terms with the reality that some people are just bigots. This isn't a hill worth dying on, inclusion is not done at the expense of you weak-minded white males, and that having non-traditional heroes and characters isn't an affront to your snowflake sensibilities.

I shouldn't have to repeat this to a bunch of adults. You're not 12 years old anymore and you shouldn't be shriveling up at the thought of some transgender or lesbian person being in a major blockbuster game just becuase you're not comfortable with homosexuality or transgenderism. Grow up, seriously. Oh, and don't even bother trying to justify it with some bullshit excuse about how 'oh but they went too far' or conjuring up some other justification for your ignorance. It's no different than hypermasculine, heteronormative media, it's just on the other side of the spectrum and that scares you for whatever childish reason.

Your failure to understand why people complain about the way those minorities are introduced in the game, although people in forums like this try to explain time and time again, is a huge part of the problem why we can't have discussions like this. It's like trying to explain something for a, well... 12 year old.

Really? you're gonna pull the immature 'you just don't understand' card? No, I understand, you need to take responsibility for your prejudices. It shouldn't matter how they're presented or brought forward, the same vitriol doesn't get thrown at any male straight cis characters, it's just bigots lashing out against progress. 

The sooner you accept this, the sooner we can have a mature discussion about it. The first step to fixing a problem is admitting you have one. 



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