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Forums - Politics Discussion - (POSSIBLE SPOILERS INSIDE) The agenda and political discussion of Naughty Dog

 

Have politics damaged the quality of ND games

No 39 41.94%
 
Yes 54 58.06%
 
Total:93
sales2099 said:
Hey guys since I came here I never picked up how to do the hidden spoilers tag. Anybody able to help?

It only works on the PC version of the site I think. You have to click on Rich Text Reply, and then the spoiler icon is an Eyeball with a crossmark over it on the top row. 



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Torillian said:
John2290 said:

For the simple reason human beings don't like when other groups get preferential treatment, it's ingrained in human DNA and it isn't going anywhere anytime soon so the best we can do is advocate for equality on an even playing feild and no tribes should form, no fighting should occur. Give everyone that even playing feild and help those who need it on an individual basis. As for characters causing resentment just read the thread above, do these people look like they are being pushed towards acceptance ot hate? Acceptance is when noone chats about shit in public and feels a need to shout over someone else, you don't see straight people having pride parades or shouting over everyone else inclusion in a film that is written for gay people. That is true acceptance.

And what, a civil right movement for gay people? It already happened socially or are you advocating for superiority and extra benifets over everone else... Everyone should just bow down and praise people for being gay? That's not acceptence, it's forced acceptance and some gay people have gotten addicted to that attention and preferential treatment, you can't blame them, who wouldn't love parades dedicated to one of your natural qualities, I love my Paddies day parades dedicated to Irishness omce a year. People already accept en mass and being gay is not something that need a civil rights movment in the west. Gays have a whole month dedicated to flauting their gayness, is that not enough? Having every brand fly your banner and hundreds of millions of people support and praise you with a month of partying in your honour, if you're comfortable with your sexuality you shouldn't feel the need to hide away or conversely flaunt it to the world... it's 2020.

If you want to help, then change things in Russia, China, The middle east etc, that is where gays and minorities are truly oppressed, some to horrific degrees. Move there and advocate or join the military and hope for a post in the middle east or nothern Africa where you can really help. 

Maybe I was hallucinating but did we not just have a landmark decision for gay civil rights in the US? Seems like there's still some work to be done. 

About 20% of people in the US think homosexuality shouldn't be accepted in society. That's one in every 5 people. If one in five people still thought interracial relationships shouldn't be accepted in society I would sure as fuck think that's a problem that should be talked about and still needs work. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societal_attitudes_toward_homosexuality#Measuring_attitudes_toward_homosexuality

Overall this idea of "It's good enough why can't all you minorities shut up now?" is ridiculous. In a world where 1 in 5 people don't think you should be accepted for who you are how can we just say "good job everybody, now lets never talk about gay people again".

I wonder how many of those are traditional christians,i do not want to point the finger to the christians again but i have witnessed an unhealthy amount of them talking about homosexuelity as if it is a sin.

This makes it all so very complicated to solve the problem.



shikamaru317 said:

Torillian said: 

I think so, but I don't think that was the case with Star Wars, as you can see from that movie poster. They used him prominently in western marketing because they wanted their token black character (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokenism), then hid him in the background in their China marketing because they were afraid he would hurt their sales there.

I said mostly white because there may have been a few black Imperial characters in pre-Disney expanded universe works (books/games/etc.), I honestly don't remember, they may have been all white in expanded universe works as well. I'm fairly sure that every Imperial Officer we saw in the original trilogy was white by design, specifically because Lucas was basing the Empire on Nazi Germany. I'm not seeing any non-white Imperial characters in the screenshots I'm finding online, nor do I remember there being any.

I guess you could make the argument that Imperials being white only applied to the officers, not the Stormtroopers, but since we never saw any Stormtroopers with their helmets off in the original trilogy, that's not a great argument for a black stormtrooper imo.

Since Disney took over, we have not only seen Finn, a black stormtrooper, but also black imperial officers, such as Admiral Rae Sloane, who was recently featured in the trailer for the latest EA Star Wars game. I just don't remember there being any pre-Disney.

An entirely or almost entirely white cast isn't too out of place for a 1970s American movie. Remember, just a decade or two before the US was at its all-time highest percentage of white people, and that was also the reality most people there had grown up with.

I've seen the Empire being retconned into being human supremacist (it can be easily argued that was the case because most aliens George Lucas could do in the 70s looked too ridiculous to be taken seriously as villains) but I've never heard anything about what you're saying being a thing. Also, the First Order isn't the Empire and uses enslaved, brainwashed children as soldiers, so yeah.

Either way, it's kind of pointless to be wasting time discussing an entirely fictional context like this where race isn't even a factor. Disney isn't anyone's friend and will seek to do whatever gets them more money. People would whine for their own reasons regardless of whether Finn was white, black or neon green.



 

 

 

 

 

John2290 said:
Xxain said:

Why would the resentment be about anything than badly written characters? Btw the no gives a shit about lesbian or sexuality , race or gender, its 2020 comment not only is that exactly what this thread is talking those same, there would not be largest civil rights movement since 60's currently happening... in 2020.

For the simple reason human beings don't like when other groups get preferential treatment, it's ingrained in human DNA and it isn't going anywhere anytime soon so the best we can do is advocate for equality on an even playing feild and no tribes should form, no fighting should occur. Give everyone that even playing feild and help those who need it on an individual basis. As for characters causing resentment just read the thread above, do these people look like they are being pushed towards acceptance ot hate? Acceptance is when noone chats about shit in public and feels a need to shout over someone else, you don't see straight people having pride parades or shouting over everyone else inclusion in a film that is written for gay people. That is true acceptance.

And what, a civil right movement for gay people? It already happened socially or are you advocating for superiority and extra benifets over everone else... Everyone should just bow down and praise people for being gay? That's not acceptence, it's forced acceptance and some gay people have gotten addicted to that attention and preferential treatment, you can't blame them, who wouldn't love parades dedicated to one of your natural qualities, I love my Paddies day parades dedicated to Irishness omce a year. People already accept en mass and being gay is not something that need a civil rights movment in the west. Gays have a whole month dedicated to flauting their gayness, is that not enough? Having every brand fly your banner and hundreds of millions of people support and praise you with a month of partying in your honour, if you're comfortable with your sexuality you shouldn't feel the need to hide away or conversely flaunt it to the world... it's 2020.

If you want to help, then change things in Russia, China, The middle east etc, that is where gays and minorities are truly oppressed, some to horrific degrees. Move there and advocate or join the military and hope for a post in the middle east or nothern Africa where you can really help. 

Preferential treatment? Who? I KNOW you are not infering minorities. If we focus on just video games - black characters are rare. Black characters in leading roles are even more rare. Gay characters? even more rare then the already rare black characters. I have brought this up before; most of the coolest and endering black characters come from Japan! Strange that country renowned for its melting pots of culture, is lagging behind an country known for its isolation.  



Xxain said:
John2290 said:

For the simple reason human beings don't like when other groups get preferential treatment, it's ingrained in human DNA and it isn't going anywhere anytime soon so the best we can do is advocate for equality on an even playing feild and no tribes should form, no fighting should occur. Give everyone that even playing feild and help those who need it on an individual basis. As for characters causing resentment just read the thread above, do these people look like they are being pushed towards acceptance ot hate? Acceptance is when noone chats about shit in public and feels a need to shout over someone else, you don't see straight people having pride parades or shouting over everyone else inclusion in a film that is written for gay people. That is true acceptance.

And what, a civil right movement for gay people? It already happened socially or are you advocating for superiority and extra benifets over everone else... Everyone should just bow down and praise people for being gay? That's not acceptence, it's forced acceptance and some gay people have gotten addicted to that attention and preferential treatment, you can't blame them, who wouldn't love parades dedicated to one of your natural qualities, I love my Paddies day parades dedicated to Irishness omce a year. People already accept en mass and being gay is not something that need a civil rights movment in the west. Gays have a whole month dedicated to flauting their gayness, is that not enough? Having every brand fly your banner and hundreds of millions of people support and praise you with a month of partying in your honour, if you're comfortable with your sexuality you shouldn't feel the need to hide away or conversely flaunt it to the world... it's 2020.

If you want to help, then change things in Russia, China, The middle east etc, that is where gays and minorities are truly oppressed, some to horrific degrees. Move there and advocate or join the military and hope for a post in the middle east or nothern Africa where you can really help. 

Preferential treatment? Who? I KNOW you are not infering minorities. If we focus on just video games - black characters are rare. Black characters in leading roles are even more rare. Gay characters? even more rare then the already rare black characters. I have brought this up before; most of the coolest and endering black characters come from Japan! Strange that country renowned for its melting pots of culture, is lagging behind an country known for its isolation.  

I don't think black characters are all that rare in games, but maybe I play very different games than you. I'm sure I could list dozens of black game characters just off the top of my head, many of which are playable. And I have played plenty of western games with good black characters.

Gay/lesbian characters are certainly much more rare, especially in AAA games, but I could list a good many even in AAA games, and there are alot more in smaller games, especially indies. 



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Xxain said:
iron_megalith said:

If it were an old Trans, then yes. How does one become a Trans when resources are scarce and skilled doctors and scientists are probably dying as time goes on? At this point, you'd be more worried about surviving day to die than worrying about your physical appearance. To me, that's just unrealistic.

Lets say this is true.

Nathan Drake commits mass genecide in everyone of his games. Totally unrealistic. Outside of a few jokes no one bats eye. Why is everyone assessing this abby character?

Wait. Are comparing apples to oranges right now? TLOUs premise has established that society itself has collapsed. People are trying to get by in quarantine zones that are probably the worst shit holes that you can imagine. Remember, TLOU had people eating rats. Vanity is out of the question at this point.

Not gonna say Uncharted is outlandish but it sticks to the premise it has built. Nathan Drake and his obsession over history ,artifacts and his thirst for thrills propels him to hunt for treasures. Armed organizations are after it as well who are equally as hungry as he is. Guns are on the table. You do the math. It's fair game.

So I don't really get what the hell you're trying to say at this point. Suspension of disbelief? There's a boundary to that one by the way. A story needs to be consistent with how it depicts its set pieces.

Last edited by iron_megalith - on 20 June 2020

John2290 said:

Horizon ZD has a female character that works, tomb raider reboots the same, The Witcher 3 in Ciri, Yeniffer, Triss and most other female leads, A plague tale innocence if you want a character more in the age group, Detroit Bceome human in Kara, all the female characters in divinity OS 1 and 2, Sadie in RDR and to a lesser degree Remake 2 in Claire. You know why these characters work, because they are crafted to fit situationally, are well written to extremely well written, they make the player believe and keep immersion stable, they have good motivations and bad without being one sided, they are flawed and enoigh to be relatable to men or women.

The fact that people even think females, POC or LGBTQ+ characters need to be written in situationally is a huge part of the problem. You're going to run into a lot of people who are not straight white males in life and spoilers, there is not some well reasoned lore-heavy justification for it. They are just people. In the same way you don't think people who are gay shouldn't be put up on a pedestal, diverse characters also shouldn't have unreasonable expectations for why they exist in fictional works in the first place. Not wanting companies to pander to certain demographics is equally silly because it's a neverending loop of paranoia. The reality is that if companies are currently pandering now by making diverse casts, then they were probably pandering before when most characters were heterosexual masculine males. It's not like companies just learned that they can pander with characters in the last 10 years. Blaming companies for pandering for the sake of money, is perhaps one of the most useless time-wasting practices of all time, and it's particularly egregious when it's for including diverse casts. 

Ultimate, the problem is always writing. Concepts are just that, concepts. Execution is everything. And it's a problem when the first thing people blame for bad writing is a diverse cast or the very idea of diversity in a work. Maybe you could argue that writers who "force diversity" are just bad writers, but like, it's not as if most people complaining about forced diversity are going out of their way to experience diverse works that are highly beloved, or works they might like. To give credit you did mention writing, but again, if someone makes a gay one-dimensional character, and someone makes a one-dimensional heterosexual character, there is really no difference in quality. Maybe you can't be a bit mad if the gay character is used as a marketing stunt, but ultimately it is a fruitless effort and should be talked about separately from the quality of the writing, which would be the actual problem. Otherwise it just comes off as pettiness. 

Even if this part of your post was just worded poorly and it's not what you intended, I've seen these arguments purposely made so many times that I feel it needs to be said in this thread. If it doesn't apply to you feel free to ignore it, but it probably applies to a lot of people on this site, whether they want to admit it or not. 



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And something's gonna steal your carbon 

iron_megalith said:
Xxain said:

Lets say this is true.

Nathan Drake commits mass genecide in everyone of his games. Totally unrealistic. Outside of a few jokes no one bats eye. Why is everyone assessing this abby character?

Wait. Are comparing apples to oranges right now? TLOUs premise has established that society itself has collapsed. People are trying to get by in quarantine zones that are probably the worst shit holes that you can imagine. Remember, TLOU had people eating rats. Vanity is out of the question at this point.

Not gonna say Uncharted is outlandish but it sticks to the premise it has built. Nathan Drake and his obsession over history ,artifacts and his thirst for thrills propels him to hunt for treasures. Armed organizations are after it as well who are equally as hungry as he is. Guns are on the table. You do the math. It's fair game.

So I don't really get what the hell you're trying to say at this point. Suspension of disbelief? There's a boundary to that one by the way. A story needs to be consistent with how it depicts its set pieces.

No no no. You missed my point.

I have always found it incredibly unbelievable that Nathan Drake, 1 man, is capable of killing an entire militia (this includes choppers) with no obvious form of military training(even if he did ... 1 man??), but we have several users in this thread mentioning that Nadine, trained black woman, beat both Nate and another character up at the same time as if that is unbelievable..... I am reading that correctly?

Why are we over assessing the possibility of Abby. We are very picky and choosey when we want the realistic card. Not to mention, there is this attitude that in a world where survival is a everyday struggle, people cant find time enjoy themselves. You say vanity should be out of the question but Doesn't Ellie have a tattoo? 



About nakedness and the hypocrisy of possible censoring:

Spoiler!
Normally a bodybuilding female still has some breasts on top of the muscles but when Abby goes naked she does not really have that,i wonder they thought that was too much peacefull nudity to add amongst the gruesome killing.


John2290 said:
Xxain said:

Preferential treatment? Who? I KNOW you are not infering minorities. If we focus on just video games - black characters are rare. Black characters in leading roles are even more rare. Gay characters? even more rare then the already rare black characters. I have brought this up before; most of the coolest and endering black characters come from Japan! Strange that country renowned for its melting pots of culture, is lagging behind an country known for its isolation.  

Yeah, I'm not doing this. That's a strawman and bait. You clearly want someone you can argue with and I'm not going to be that someone, not on such a sensitive subject.  

I am simply opening the door for to express your view. As now the only agreeable case is ethic groups in locations where it historically it does not make sense. When you leave your house do you regularly see Black people? Asians? Mexicans? If the answer is yes, then how can they forced? I would consider diversity to be the default! I find it more forced that we still have games with 90% of the cast being white.

A lot of the shit in this thread reeks of bigotry masked behind the "its not realistic card" while ignoring it elsewhere. You previous post sounds like someone totally detached from real current day day events.