Jaicee said:
sundin13 said:
"According to the trans movement, we are not women, we are cis-women, which apparently means we identify as the gender assigned to us at birth. This is insulting. I am not a 'woman' because I identity with femininity." *hold for applause*
This seems to be a pretty core part of the thesis of "gender critical" feminism, and it feels to me like a huge misunderstanding of what that statement actually means. I understand the perspective of this from an "abolish gender" perspective, however, I think we come to an issue when we talk about identifying and what that means. To "identify" as a woman, is not to embrace femininity but simply to speak about how you think about and name yourself. If you see yourself as a male and you prefer male pronouns, that generally means you identify as male. It does not say anything about your relationship with masculinity.
That is because gender identity and gender expression are not interlocked. We can identify as a female while expressing as masculine, and that is entirely valid.
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(I left it at that because I think your core case was made here and this is what I aim to reply to tonight.)
That, to my mind, only shows gender identity to be even more arbitrary and disingenuous concept than I'd previously believed. If a guy can just claim for all legal and social purposes that he's a woman without even being expected to change anything about himself to indicate as much -- if he can just continue comporting himself in a socially masculine way and everything -- and I'm seriously expected to just buy that he, with his full Taliban beard and all, is really a woman on nothing more than his personal say so, then that only shows how capricious and intellectually dishonest this whole phenom is.
The essence of what gender critical feminists believe about womanhood is that it's something that exists objectively, materially, and has real-world consequence. Womanhood is not just a feeling that anyone can claim. You cannot just identify your way out of patriarchal repression. Phenom like the polls showing the vast majority of people prefer male babies and societies where fetuses are commonly aborted if it's discovered that they're female go to show that social misogyny begins to affect one before they're even born, let alone able to conceive of a gender identity for themselves. Patriarchal oppression doesn't care about your gender identity, it cares about your physical chemistry and defines your worth accordingly. That, in fact, is why trans-men face discrimination and under-representation even within the transgender movement: because they are biologically female! It's no coincidence that they have the higher rates of depression and anxiety are more likely to try taking their lives.
Sexism is called that for a reason: because it based on your sex! To the extent that that simple fact is ignored, it becomes impossible to recognize sexism when one sees it, and thus to resist and defeat it.
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Its tough for me to reconcile this idea that trans women must be feminine to be valid, with femininist critiques of gender. As the woman stated in the video, no one should be defined by stereotypes and nobody conforms perfectly to society's ideas about femininity and masculinity. The "gender critical" perspective seems to throw that away in its criticism of masculinity from trans women, while simultaneously criticizing feminine trans women as wearing a costume and being stereotypes.
When I hear these two pointed criticisms, it largely sounds to me like an insistence that trans identity is never valid. This is the core transphobia that "gender critical" is based on. No matter how rosy your prose or how righteous your indignation, at the end of the day, if you look at what is being said, it is hard to ignore that. You seem to not even attempt to disguise these beliefs in this post.
As for your statements about womanhood, I feel that is an extremely limited way of looking at things. While a trans woman may not have had the experiences of girlhood, she also often didn't have the experiences of typical boyhood, and she often does experience many of the same patriarchal systems when living as a trans woman, often amplified by the fact of her trans identity. This assertion that every woman must have x, y and z experience in order to be a real woman seems to blatantly ignore the variation in lived experiences of women, in addition to ignoring the experiences of womanhood from trans women. There is no reason why we cannot reconcile both of these experiences in a fight against patriarchal and misogynistic norms. Similarly, the validity of trans identity doesn't erase the concept of sexism. If anything, it provides an important case study on it. Similar to twin studies, we are able to examine the perspectives of individuals and how their lived experience differ when living as a man vs a woman. If anything, this amplifies the validity of criticisms of sexism. In no way does it lessen it.
And since I'm already typing, I will speak briefly about the feeling of safety that the woman spoke about in the video you posted. She mentioned a scenario in which a woman at a woman's shelter felt unsafe by the presence of a masculine trans woman. First of all, I do believe that this feeling is valid. I believe that a shelter designed around providing people safety should be willing to take reasonable steps to ensure that feeling of safety. This applies for situations regarding both cis and trans individuals.
Second, I believe this to be a fear of masculinity, not whatever biological state that individual existed in. Were it a masculine trans man, I don't believe anything would have been different. Do you think she would have been comforted by the knowledge that this person once had a vagina? Do you think she even asked whether the individual was a masculine woman, a masculine trans man or a masculine trans woman? What means did she have of assessing the sex of this individual?
Even so, it shouldn't be hard to imagine a situation in which a woman feels unsafe by the presence of a trans man. What then? If we are to codify sex based rights in law, a masculine trans man would be granted access to sexed spaces, no matter how uncomfortable that makes both parties feel. So what is the solution to this conundrum? How do we reconcile this issue in a way which upholds the feminist perspectives on gender?
My belief is allowing people to make that decision for themselves is generally the best for everyone. There will be times when issues come up and as a society, we need to come up with a means to address this, but holding on to sex does nothing to actually address these issues in many cases, while directly putting trans people in danger, and harming their emotional well being.
Last edited by sundin13 - on 22 June 2020