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Forums - Politics Discussion - Official Protest Thread

John2290 said:
JRPGfan said:

If the pressure on the water beam is hard enough, it ll cut through diamonds.
That water cannon lookings strong enough, just gotta focus the beam abit, and you could probably use that to probably cut people in half.

Imagine that gif showing the beam comeing through and cutting off limbs?
Lmao at that beam actually blasting like 5 people away. The force of that thing is crazy.

That dude who went flying would have been fine if he hadn't put his shield up, that's what pushed him back with such force. 

That guy might have survived that. The two in the links I posted didn't make it out alive and had no shield.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/08/hong-kong-police-water-cannon-danger/
Hong Kong police must exercise extreme caution in any deployment of water cannons in upcoming protests, Amnesty International said, warning that the use of these powerful weapons in the city’s densely populated streets could cause serious injuries and further enflame tensions.

Distance doesn't help much either, these things are dangerous

She could have easily cracked her head hitting the street that hard.

The water cannons would be better used here
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/us/amazon-redlands-fire-trnd/index.html

One more link
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/06/what-nonlethal-weapons-can-do-to-the-body-george-floyd/

Tasers are another problem
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-taser-deaths-insight/as-death-toll-keeps-rising-u-s-communities-start-rethinking-taser-use-idUSKCN1PT0YT
Warren Ragudo died after two Taser shocks by police intervening in a family altercation. Ramzi Saad died after a Taser shock by police during a dispute between Saad and his mother. Chinedu Okobi died after police used a Taser to subdue him in a confrontation they blamed on his refusal to stop walking in traffic.

They were among at least 49 people who died in 2018 after being shocked by police with a Taser, a similar number as in the previous two years, according to a Reuters review of police records, news reports and court documents.

Non lethal weapons... The only thing those seem to do is give the police an excuse to use more force.



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John2290 said:
Jumpin said:

He would have been fine if they didn't use the fucking water cannons.

Well, we'd be here all day with chicken or the egg logic but I'll indulge, they wouldn't have needed the canons if they didn't violate the law. 

You really want to open that can of worms? That gif was from long before the pandemic btw. Afaik protesting is not against the law. Plus what do you do if you want to protest against the laws...

https://www.amnestyusa.org/press-releases/police-failing-to-ensure-right-to-protest-endangering-lives/
“U.S. police across the country are failing their obligations under international law to respect and facilitate the right to peaceful protest, exacerbating a tense situation and endangering the lives of protesters."

Who is violating the law...



John2290 said:
Jumpin said:

He would have been fine if they didn't use the fucking water cannons.

Well, we'd be here all day with chicken or the egg logic but I'll indulge, they wouldn't have needed the canons if they didn't violate the law. 

That won't be necessary, you've already lost the argument. Not only was your response a red herring, but it was a false red herring.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

JRPGfan said:

You guys seen the video with the old man in his 70's trying to return a riot gear helmet, to the riot police?

"heres one of your helmets, one of you must have left it behinde"
*cops just ignore him, and what hes carrying*
*cop gives him a push*
*old man falls back, wobbling and falling down to crack open his head*


Theres blood running out of his damn ear, and you see him laying there shakeing abit, before passing out.
Cops just move right past him.

Seriously? its messed up.

I saw the video and it is messed up.  I didn't really notice at first that he was holding one of their helmets and trying to give it back to them.  They could have just grabbed his arm and escorted him but nope gotta shove an old man.  The Buffalo police department first tried to put statement out that someone tripped and fell.  He might have tripped a little on his own but he wouldn't have fallen in the first place if there wasn't a shove.  Now 57 members of the team resigned from that tactical team to support their two suspended coworkers.  They should just resign from the police force if they think that was justifiable.  To add insult to injury they just walk right by him offering no aid to him till two state troopers stopped to help.

https://www.boston.com/news/national-news-2/2020/06/05/57-buffalo-cops-resign-from-special-squad-after-2-suspended-for-shoving-75-year-old-protester-to-the-ground

Hope the old guy recovers.  He is in stable but serious condition.  I'm pretty sure I saw blood coming out of his ear in the video which means heavy blow to the head from hitting it on concrete.  I tripped and fell into edge of a glass TV stand and had a 6+ inch long gash on top of my head but even then I didn't bleed out of my ears.  He must have suffered a heavy concussion.

Last edited by sethnintendo - on 06 June 2020

Old man falling looks like a combination of incompetence and truckload of bad luck. Looks like these two suspended guys are listening to the man, then 3rd one comes and shouts to push on and both of them give a quick shove at the same time, resulting in the man taking off-balance steps, tripping and falling.

Unfortunate and unprofessional, they should've walked the man away from there. But it's stupid to think they deliberately cracked his skull, probably pretty shocking thing for the officer too and a thing that will haunt him. Unless you already think none of these officers are human at all..

"To add insult to injury they just walk right by him offering no aid to him till two state troopers stopped to help" Not at all, they immediately call the medic team. No use for others to gather around the old man.



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Cops have a right to defend themselves and respond in force if they are being assaulted. They are being assaulted with bricks thrown and other weapons in some instances. They can respond with force against those people.

However, they shouldn't respond in force to people that are just standing there peacefully protesting.



Hiku said:

Who said they deliberately tried to crack his skull? And if no one said it, that's a strawman making this behavior seem not as bad as people are saying, because "it wasn't intentional." Which no one claimed anyway.

Unprofessional is putting it mildly. If you can't handle a 70 year old man who was no threat to you without pushing him, you should not be wearing the uniform. Should be investigated for criminal negligence.

And this haunts the officers so much that the pushing part didn't make it into the original statement. Only "tripped & fell".
Pretty sure trying to cover up potential manslaugher is criminal as well.

 I wasn't saying anyone in this thread thought it was deliberate. I was referring to some twitter discussion about it that you posted here. It was a post about one of these officers kneeling with protestors and then being involved in this incident. So excuse me if I assume some people think it was deliberate because otherwise I'm not sure what the issue is with the man kneeling and then being on duty.

Unprofessional is what it is. I've no doubt these guys can and have handled old people without pushing, but in that incident they made an error. It doesn't look like a push with force to make someone  fall. More like a sudden shove that makes the man take off-balance steps backwards and lose his footing. Unfortunate and unprofessional.

How do you know what he wrote in his original statement?

Anyway, things like this should always be investigated but in this case I don't think he would be charged. Statements afterwards are another thing.

Incidents like the cop firing a projectile on kids head should be investigated and the cop charged. And those clips of cops beating protesters with batongs. 



You know, the official line here is that we're to support the peaceful protesters and not the other ones, but let's be serious here for a minute: part of the reason the press loves the daytime protesters is because those are mostly more middle class people who don't have to be at work during the day. Of course they're peaceful. They have less to be angry about. But then night falls and work shifts end. Then the working class comes out and that's when the cops crack down and you see the scenes of clashes and rioting (mostly it's police riots, but demonstrators have been known to respond to being physically attacked too).

I mean I'm not supposed to sympathize with a bunch of mostly poorer people looting stores along the wealthy Fifth Avenue that sell only to rich people, but come on. Can I seriously be expected to view institutions like that as victims?

Survey data out this week (example 1, example 2) finds that yeah, most people do, in fact, understand the anger behind these protests and sympathize, even if they don't actually approve of every action everyone at these events has taken. I mean when you see that 57% of Americans now believe that police departments have a racial bias against black people and and an even larger 64% say they support the protests demanding justice for George Floyd and other victims of police brutality while only 27% oppose them (i.e. 73% are either supportive of or neutral on these protests), it's clear which direction public opinion has broken toward. I really want to point that out because for some time I kept hearing from concerned people online that surely, surely the occasional scene of a burning cop car would be enough to provoke a backlash against Black Lives Matter and the whole cause of racial justice. It makes you wonder about their mentality. What I saw happen on that video of George Floyd being suffocated to death for nearly nine minutes while three other officers do nothing to intervene was the single most despicably callous form of brazen murder I've seen police officers deploy out of all these videos thereof we've seen in recent years. How does one watch that video and seriously reach the conclusion that public opinion will break against any resultant protests? You have to have no conscience at all to believe that!

Just like read that now-infamous Trump tweet from last week about how looters should be shot by the army. That sums up the attitude right there: detractors to these protests believe that white property matters more than black lives. What else needs to be said?

And I mean this isn't even just strictly a racial issue! I mean if you're black, you're statistically like 19 times more likely to die at the hands of the police...but I mean, as we've also seen, it could also just be some random homeless white person even, or just any easy target like that that they think no one -- or at least no one who matters in their eyes, no one who they think society writ large will care about -- will miss. That's a major part of why there are so many white people at these events today, in contrast to years ago. That is why the anarchist groups -- which are basically all-white and proletarian -- are involved. This is a class issue too, not only a race issue.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 06 June 2020

KiigelHeart said:
Old man falling looks like a combination of incompetence and truckload of bad luck. Looks like these two suspended guys are listening to the man, then 3rd one comes and shouts to push on and both of them give a quick shove at the same time, resulting in the man taking off-balance steps, tripping and falling.

Unfortunate and unprofessional, they should've walked the man away from there. But it's stupid to think they deliberately cracked his skull, probably pretty shocking thing for the officer too and a thing that will haunt him. Unless you already think none of these officers are human at all..

"To add insult to injury they just walk right by him offering no aid to him till two state troopers stopped to help" Not at all, they immediately call the medic team. No use for others to gather around the old man.

Ever heard of "duty to rescue, failure to render aid"? You stay at an accident scene doing what you can until professional help arrived. Not only were they at fault for shoving the old man, walking away and lying about it are two more counts against them. These people should not be on the street dealing with the public.



SvennoJ said:
KiigelHeart said:
Old man falling looks like a combination of incompetence and truckload of bad luck. Looks like these two suspended guys are listening to the man, then 3rd one comes and shouts to push on and both of them give a quick shove at the same time, resulting in the man taking off-balance steps, tripping and falling.

Unfortunate and unprofessional, they should've walked the man away from there. But it's stupid to think they deliberately cracked his skull, probably pretty shocking thing for the officer too and a thing that will haunt him. Unless you already think none of these officers are human at all..

"To add insult to injury they just walk right by him offering no aid to him till two state troopers stopped to help" Not at all, they immediately call the medic team. No use for others to gather around the old man.

Ever heard of "duty to rescue, failure to render aid"? You stay at an accident scene doing what you can until professional help arrived. Not only were they at fault for shoving the old man, walking away and lying about it are two more counts against them. These people should not be on the street dealing with the public.

I have, doesn't have much to do with this situation. They have an emergency squad for it and it arrives quickly. One of them stays there. Others need to carry on whatever task they had. No point touching someone with potentially serious injury and trauma if more qualified and equipped units are available.

I agree the two men shoving shouldn't continue to operate after the incident. Very likely too much going on inside their heads.