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Forums - Politics Discussion - Official Protest Thread

SpokenTruth said:
RolStoppable said:

I can't help but laugh about these two particular points. Given the history of the confederates, it would be like Germany being fine with Nazi memorials and symbology from 1945 until today.

US politics are seemingly a neverending source of entertainment where reality and satire keep blending together and are almost indistinguishable.

Half of us have never understood it either. The Confederate Battle Flag that you always see was only ever flown a few times (they used other versions for most battles).  And the Confederacy itself lasted just 5 years.  They literally tried to become a separate country to fight a war against the US.  That's generally considered traitorous in most countries.

And the statues and monuments were erected decades after the war itself during a period known for their exceptionally oppressive laws against African Americans.  Their intention was simply to show them we still own you.  Oh, an most weren't erected by the local or state governments but by Confederate historical groups and white nationalist organizations.

Some historical context on the Confederate Flag and monuments:

The Confederate Battle Flag was originally used by Southern Heritage organizations in memorials to the fallen soldiers of the South during the Civil War.  It wasn't commandeered by white supremacists until over half a century later.

"What is remarkable looking back from the 21st century is that, from the 1870s and into the 1940s, Confederate heritage organizations used the flag widely in their rituals memorializing and celebrating the Confederacy and its heroes, yet managed to maintain effective ownership of the flag and its meaning. The flag was a familiar part of the South’s symbolic landscape, but how and where it was used was controlled."

"It was in the hands of students that the flag burst onto the political scene in 1948. Student delegates from Southern colleges and universities waved battle flags on the floor of the Southern States Rights Party convention in July 1948."

" the KKK did not use the Confederate flag widely or at all in its ritual in the 1860s and 1870s or during its rebirth and nationwide popularity from 1915 to the late 1920s. Only with a second rebirth in the late 1930s and 1940s did the battle flag take hold in the Klan."

https://www.historynet.com/embattled-banner-the-true-history-of-the-confederate-flag.htm

A number of statues of Confederate leaders (Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson, Jefferson Davis) were sculpted by Edward Virginius Valentine over the course of his artistic career.  His "Recumbent Lee" statue was commissioned by Washington & Lee University as a memorial in the Chapel, which Robert E. Lee is buried underneath.  After the Civil War, Robert E. Lee had served with distinction as President of Washington College (his name was added to the name of the college after his death).  The "Recumbent Lee" statue was placed in Lee Chapel on the campus in 1875 within 5 years of Lee's death (1870).

The Robert E. Lee statue removed from Lee Circle in New Orleans, LA was sculpted by Alexander Doyle (born in Ohio and spent his artistic career in NYC after having studying in Italy).  The statue was commissioned by the Robert E. Lee Monument Association, of which, Supreme Court Justice Charles E. Fenner was president.  Doyle also sculpted the Alabama Confederate Monument at the Alabama State Capitol which was primarily funded by the Ladies Memorial Association of Alabama, and plans had begun for it as early as November 1865.  Doyle's other works include The General Beauregard Equestrian Statue, honoring P. G. T. Beauregard.

Many of the statues and monuments were erected by the South to memorialize and honor their fallen soldiers.  To hand wave it away as solely intending to state "hey black people, we still own you" is a misrepresentation.  

In so far as to say the vandalization and removal of the statues somehow helps the black community and eases racial tensions across the country, there is this quote from BET founder Robert Johnson:

People tearing down statues “have the mistaken assumption that black people are sitting around cheering for them saying ‘Oh, my God, look at these white people. They’re doing something so important to us. They’re taking down the statue of a Civil War general who fought for the South,” Johnson said.

“You know, black people, in my opinion, black people laugh at white people who do this the same way we laugh at white people who say, ‘we got to take off the TV shows,’” he said.

“[It’s] tantamount to rearranging the deck chairs on a racial Titanic,” added Johnson, who became the country’s first black billionaire in 2001. “It absolutely means nothing.”

Black Americans, Johnson argued, would benefit more from structural changes like economic equality.

“Look, the people who are basically tearing down statues, trying to make a statement are basically borderline anarchists, the way I look at it,” Johnson told FOX. “They really have no agenda other than the idea we’re going to topple a statue. It’s not going to close the wealth gap. It’s not going to give a kid whose parents can’t afford college money to go to college. It’s not going to close the labor gap between what white workers are paid and what black workers are paid. And it’s not going to take people off welfare or food stamps.”

He also rejected the idea of canceling TV shows like "The Dukes of Hazzard" because of the Confederate flags that appear in it, and the move to put a prologue at the start of the film “Gone With The Wind,” warning of racist content.

Johnson also lashed into white celebrities who use their social media platforms to apologize for their race.

“You know, that to me is the silliest expression of white privilege that exists in this country. The notion that a celebrity could get on a Twitter feed and say, ‘oh, my God, I am so sorry that I am white,’” he said. “I don’t find any black people getting on Twitter and saying, ‘Oh, I’m so sorry I’m black.’ And we got the worst problems. … My thing is: embrace being white and do the right thing.”

Johnson urged white Americans to sit down with black Americans and ask what they really want.

“White Americans seem to think that if they just do sort of emotionally or drastic things that black people are going to say, ‘Oh my God, white people love us because they took down a statue of Stonewall Jackson,’”he said. “Frankly, black people don’t give a damn.”

https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/bet-founder-robert-johnson-slams-protesters-for-toppling-statues/



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SpokenTruth said:
Mandalore76 said:

Some historical context on the Confederate Flag and monuments:

The Confederate Battle Flag was originally used by Southern Heritage organizations in memorials to the fallen soldiers of the South during the Civil War.  It wasn't commandeered by white supremacists until over half a century later.

"What is remarkable looking back from the 21st century is that, from the 1870s and into the 1940s, Confederate heritage organizations used the flag widely in their rituals memorializing and celebrating the Confederacy and its heroes, yet managed to maintain effective ownership of the flag and its meaning. The flag was a familiar part of the South’s symbolic landscape, but how and where it was used was controlled."

"It was in the hands of students that the flag burst onto the political scene in 1948. Student delegates from Southern colleges and universities waved battle flags on the floor of the Southern States Rights Party convention in July 1948."

" the KKK did not use the Confederate flag widely or at all in its ritual in the 1860s and 1870s or during its rebirth and nationwide popularity from 1915 to the late 1920s. Only with a second rebirth in the late 1930s and 1940s did the battle flag take hold in the Klan."

https://www.historynet.com/embattled-banner-the-true-history-of-the-confederate-flag.htm

A number of statues of Confederate leaders (Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson, Jefferson Davis) were sculpted by Edward Virginius Valentine over the course of his artistic career.  His "Recumbent Lee" statue was commissioned by Washington & Lee University as a memorial in the Chapel, which Robert E. Lee is buried underneath.  After the Civil War, Robert E. Lee had served with distinction as President of Washington College (his name was added to the name of the college after his death).  The "Recumbent Lee" statue was placed in Lee Chapel on the campus in 1875 within 5 years of Lee's death (1870).

The Robert E. Lee statue removed from Lee Circle in New Orleans, LA was sculpted by Alexander Doyle (born in Ohio and spent his artistic career in NYC after having studying in Italy).  The statue was commissioned by the Robert E. Lee Monument Association, of which, Supreme Court Justice Charles E. Fenner was president.  Doyle also sculpted the Alabama Confederate Monument at the Alabama State Capitol which was primarily funded by the Ladies Memorial Association of Alabama, and plans had begun for it as early as November 1865.  Doyle's other works include The General Beauregard Equestrian Statue, honoring P. G. T. Beauregard.

Many of the statues and monuments were erected by the South to memorialize and honor their fallen soldiers.  To hand wave it away as solely intending to state "hey black people, we still own you" is a misrepresentation.  

In so far as to say the vandalization and removal of the statues somehow helps the black community and eases racial tensions across the country, there is this quote from BET founder Robert Johnson:

People tearing down statues “have the mistaken assumption that black people are sitting around cheering for them saying ‘Oh, my God, look at these white people. They’re doing something so important to us. They’re taking down the statue of a Civil War general who fought for the South,” Johnson said.

“You know, black people, in my opinion, black people laugh at white people who do this the same way we laugh at white people who say, ‘we got to take off the TV shows,’” he said.

“[It’s] tantamount to rearranging the deck chairs on a racial Titanic,” added Johnson, who became the country’s first black billionaire in 2001. “It absolutely means nothing.”

Black Americans, Johnson argued, would benefit more from structural changes like economic equality.

“Look, the people who are basically tearing down statues, trying to make a statement are basically borderline anarchists, the way I look at it,” Johnson told FOX. “They really have no agenda other than the idea we’re going to topple a statue. It’s not going to close the wealth gap. It’s not going to give a kid whose parents can’t afford college money to go to college. It’s not going to close the labor gap between what white workers are paid and what black workers are paid. And it’s not going to take people off welfare or food stamps.”

He also rejected the idea of canceling TV shows like "The Dukes of Hazzard" because of the Confederate flags that appear in it, and the move to put a prologue at the start of the film “Gone With The Wind,” warning of racist content.

Johnson also lashed into white celebrities who use their social media platforms to apologize for their race.

“You know, that to me is the silliest expression of white privilege that exists in this country. The notion that a celebrity could get on a Twitter feed and say, ‘oh, my God, I am so sorry that I am white,’” he said. “I don’t find any black people getting on Twitter and saying, ‘Oh, I’m so sorry I’m black.’ And we got the worst problems. … My thing is: embrace being white and do the right thing.”

Johnson urged white Americans to sit down with black Americans and ask what they really want.

“White Americans seem to think that if they just do sort of emotionally or drastic things that black people are going to say, ‘Oh my God, white people love us because they took down a statue of Stonewall Jackson,’”he said. “Frankly, black people don’t give a damn.”

https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/bet-founder-robert-johnson-slams-protesters-for-toppling-statues/

I'll give you a couple of days to reflect upon what you just said and to give you time to amend your position. There will be no mercy after.

I'm going to grab some popcorn. Please prove this statement "Their intention was simply to show them we still own you"  When did you get your power to read the minds of others and know their intention? To know the intention of those long dead is especially impressive.  Notice I ask nor state noting else.  Any attempts to dodge what i have asked you to do will only show you are arguing (at least on this point if not many others) from assumptions born of your own mind. Please show me the proof oh wise one.



I came across this video about the source of heavy equipment of the US police and it's consequences to policing and found it very interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOAOVbyfjA0



RolStoppable said:
The_Yoda said:

I'm going to grab some popcorn. Please prove this statement "Their intention was simply to show them we still own you"  When did you get your power to read the minds of others and know their intention? To know the intention of those long dead is especially impressive.  Notice I ask nor state noting else.  Any attempts to dodge what i have asked you to do will only show you are arguing (at least on this point if not many others) from assumptions born of your own mind. Please show me the proof oh wise one.

I'd like to ask a question too: What honor did the fallen soldiers of the south have; which good cause did they die for?

I cannot answer that question.  I can speculate that they were defending a way of life and possibly what they thought was overreach by the federal government. That isn't to say I agree with said way of life, far from it.  I did not live through the era nor know what they held in their hearts.

I could also guess that Perspective played a powerful roll both in their actions and in the erection of the statues.  The men on the wrong side of history likely didn't view themselves as evil. I am sure most of them were loved by others as Fathers, Sons, Husbands, Brothers, and friends.

I can speculate that, but I am not so pompous as to state the above as fact, merely as speculation. That speculation could very well be wrong, I don't always understand my own heart fully let alone pretend that I completely understand the hearts / intentions of others.

Perspective is a powerful thing that like timing does not, in my opinion, get nearly enough credit for its role in events and interactions.



@SpokenTruth so are you ever going to respond to us ... my popcorn is stale.

Edit - got a PM - covering for those related to Covid has him limited on time.  Stay safe @SpokenTruth and reply when things slow back down. I'll deal with stale popcorn, I've eaten worse.

Last edited by The_Yoda - on 03 July 2020

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So does black lives only matter when white people can be blamed cause that's what it seems like. Seeing that video of the guy with his daughter just being randomly shot makes me nauseous. I am glad i haven't seen any videos of the 7 year old killed in Chicago or the 8 year old killed in Atlanta by a BLM-protestor