Forums - Politics Discussion - Official Protest Thread

NightlyPoe said:
jason1637 said:
Black Lives Matter

Is a movement based on what it opposes:  Prejudice.

Even in the current situation, it has been assumed that the inciting incident was a racial matter.  So much so, that if you were to point it out, you'd get little more than a "c'mon" type of reaction.  This is prejudice.  We don't know what caused the action by the officer that cost Floyd his life or what was going through his head.  It might have been racial animus, but it also might have been that he got cut off in traffic.  It is assumed that Floyd would still be alive if he were white, but we do not know that.

Further, the empirical evidence for increased violence, particularly deadly force, from the police based on race is surprisingly inconclusive (opposing view, mixed conclusion).

And just anecdotally, we see how such prejudices have been destructive in certain highly-publicized incidents like the Mike Brown shooting which later cleared the officer involved, but which Black Lives Matter is based on.  The truth came out, and few apologized or thought twice about how their prejudices led them astray and hurt a man who dedicated his life to protecting a community.

While I'm sure someone will point to history as a reason for this prejudice.  I would counter that it doesn't matter.  A person mugged by a minority has a history as well.  But the stomping out of prejudice demands that the person forget the context of that history with each new person they meet.  "That's how they are" is never a good thought to have, but it is built into the basic philosophy of Black Lives Matter.

While, I don't question the motives of (most) of the people who believe in the movement.  I question whether anything good comes of making prejudice into a virtue in the long run.

Yeah, sure you can argue that the cop murdered George Floyd for reasons other than race. Although race probably was a pretty significant factor. Even if it can't be proven how events would have unfolded had he been white it's certainly fair to assume it would have went differently.

Although at the end of the day, does it even really matter? Police shouldn't be killing people like that full stop.



Bet Shiken that COD would outsell Battlefield in 2018. http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8749702

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sethnintendo said:
Oneeee-Chan!!! said:
I think a lot of people have reduced their sympathy for black people when they see that riot.
Or, there were a lot of people who instigated it to think so.
At least in Japan.

Isn't Japan one of the least diverse nation on the planet?

What does that have to do with what I wrote?
Even if there is no racial diversity in Japanese society, there should be diversity in the way of thinking.



Ka-pi96 said:
NightlyPoe said:

Is a movement based on what it opposes:  Prejudice.

Even in the current situation, it has been assumed that the inciting incident was a racial matter.  So much so, that if you were to point it out, you'd get little more than a "c'mon" type of reaction.  This is prejudice.  We don't know what caused the action by the officer that cost Floyd his life or what was going through his head.  It might have been racial animus, but it also might have been that he got cut off in traffic.  It is assumed that Floyd would still be alive if he were white, but we do not know that.

Further, the empirical evidence for increased violence, particularly deadly force, from the police based on race is surprisingly inconclusive (opposing view, mixed conclusion).

And just anecdotally, we see how such prejudices have been destructive in certain highly-publicized incidents like the Mike Brown shooting which later cleared the officer involved, but which Black Lives Matter is based on.  The truth came out, and few apologized or thought twice about how their prejudices led them astray and hurt a man who dedicated his life to protecting a community.

While I'm sure someone will point to history as a reason for this prejudice.  I would counter that it doesn't matter.  A person mugged by a minority has a history as well.  But the stomping out of prejudice demands that the person forget the context of that history with each new person they meet.  "That's how they are" is never a good thought to have, but it is built into the basic philosophy of Black Lives Matter.

While, I don't question the motives of (most) of the people who believe in the movement.  I question whether anything good comes of making prejudice into a virtue in the long run.

Yeah, sure you can argue that the cop murdered George Floyd for reasons other than race. Although race probably was a pretty significant factor. Even if it can't be proven how events would have unfolded had he been white it's certainly fair to assume it would have went differently.

Although at the end of the day, does it even really matter? Police shouldn't be killing people like that full stop.

Didn't say otherwise.  But the protests are specific to the black population, not in general.  It's a specific grievance and there's an assumption that it applies here.

Though, again, why do you assume that it was probably a significant factor?  Where does that assumption come from outside of your own prejudices?

Last edited by NightlyPoe - on 04 June 2020

NightlyPoe said:
Ka-pi96 said:

Yeah, sure you can argue that the cop murdered George Floyd for reasons other than race. Although race probably was a pretty significant factor. Even if it can't be proven how events would have unfolded had he been white it's certainly fair to assume it would have went differently.

Although at the end of the day, does it even really matter? Police shouldn't be killing people like that full stop.

Didn't say otherwise.  But the protests are specific to the black population, not in general.  It's a specific grievance and there's an assumption that it applies here.

Though, again, why do you assume that it was probably a significant factor?  Where does that assumption come from outside of your own prejudices?

Well while it may only be based on opinion until the cop actually comes out and says so (assuming he's telling the truth) the long history of racial tension certainly does lend credence to the idea that it was motivated by race.



Bet Shiken that COD would outsell Battlefield in 2018. http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8749702

After the first officer starts beating the cyclist (who's not even protesting) with a baton, you see two other cops seemingly trying to stop the officer from going too far.
But instead they join in on the brutal beating. Thank god. Who knows what that dangerous cyclist could have done if it wasn't 3 batons teaming up.


Tucker with the insight.

Last edited by Hiku - on 04 June 2020

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Oneeee-Chan!!! said:
sethnintendo said:

Isn't Japan one of the least diverse nation on the planet?

What does that have to do with what I wrote?
Even if there is no racial diversity in Japanese society, there should be diversity in the way of thinking.

Well they have no experience in diversity so they can't really judge USA.  Once I see Japanese and Chinese hugging it out then maybe I might take their considerations more serious.  Japanese also treat their low wage foreign workers that work in Japan like subhumans.  In my opinion they have no room to talk

Last edited by sethnintendo - on 04 June 2020

JWeinCom said:
dark_gh0st_b0y said:

I did not skip the explanation, I'm rather looking for one... I agree that these are factors that play a role yes but is that enough to change the overall picture? One is arrested for committing a crime.

You conclude that black people 6x crime rate comes from the police keeping an eye on them for minor crimes, but you skipped the "Official FBI stats say that 49% of murders have been committed by African Americans in 2015" and the second graph that shows a huge difference about the most serious crime that is murder.

You're wrong on pretty much every count. 

"It would make sense that the high criminality rates from African Americans must be the main source of racism, and police brutality to some extend." That's an explanation/conclusion right there. You've concluded that's the sensible reason that must be the case. If you'd like to revise that, that'd probably be smart, but that's not looking for an explanation, that's asserting one.

I on the other hand didn't conclude anything.  "It could also mean that law enforcement is heavier in black neighborhoods, meaning that black people committing minor crimes are more likely to be caught than a white person committing the same crime in a white neighborhood."  I did not say that this is a sensible proposition, or that it must be the case.  I simply offered it as a possible explanation.  "It could be."

I ignored the point on murders for several reasons.  First of all, I don't know what the chart is showing.  I don't know if those are homicide victims, or perpetrators.  As the data is from the CDC, and it says mortality on the bottom, I believe this chart is showing victims.  What this shows, as I interpret it, is that among black people who die between 15-34, a higher percentage are homicide victims compared to white people who die in the same age range.  Which is quite different than what you're saying.  But of course, I'm not sure where you got this chart from, or the context behind it. 

As for the FBI statistic, you did not source that at all, and as far as I could tell, that's wrong.  https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/expanded_homicide_data_table_3_murder_offenders_by_age_sex_and_race_2015.xls According to FBI data the actual number is 36.7.  Even if we assume that every murder where the race is not listed was committed by a black person, this would leave the ratio of black to white at about 2:1, and this would not come close to explaining the proportions in the previous chart that you claimed "hold up".  

Moreover, I don't see how this is at all relevant.  There are over ten million arrests per year statista.com/statistics/191261/number-of-arrests-for-all-offenses-in-the-us-since-1990/.  In 2015 there were 15,000 murders.  Even if every murderer were apprehended by police, apprehension for murder makes up such a small amount of police interactions that I don't see where it fits in to this conversation

Lastly, one is not arrested for committing a crime.  One MIGHT be arrested for SUSPICION of committing a crime.  That's a major difference.

Just for fun, I wondered why exactly you were posting charts from seemingly random years when data from more current years is readily available.  A quick google image search explains why.  These were the pictures that were posted on wikipedia. 

Really, the quality of research being done here does not show an honest effort to understand a complex issue, but an attempt to do a cursory search to confirm a position that was already held.

Thanks for the links. These numbers confirm my initial quote of 49% reported by FBI for 2015, since it is 53% of murders committed by African Americans if you exclude the unknowns, the overall picture does not change. The sample is big enough anyway.

You are right for the homicide chart, it is victims instead of murders! It still helps us to find out who kills who. If half the murders are committed by African Americans and they are also the most victims by far, then it seems they kill each other a lot. Pretty ironic for the BLM movement... : /

Oh what a discovery, it's google and wikipedia yes, time optimization you know? I don't wanna waste ages to reach the same statistics. I never did a deep research/analysis on the matter, nor did I claim to. I suggested a possible explanation, and since I am not American I'm looking for other opinions in order to better understand what's going on and shape mine. That's why my first line on the thread was "any comments on this chart?".

And yes I had an impression of how black crime rates are higher, judging from trending music videos and the rappers that ended up in jail...

"You're wrong on pretty much every count." and you are always right O.K.

And if crime figures that relate police and black people do not relate to the conversation by you, then what does? If you have something that relates more then share it.

Of course there are many factors that relate to the numbers we have, which you already mentioned and I agree, but the overall picture is too obvious to be altered by those. When a 13% of the population does 50% of the murders and has an equal prison population with the 72%, it is clear that in US there is a big issue with crime from African Americans and police is obviously handling it very very badly.



I am adding previous figures posted for the sake of completion. Maybe someone has something else and can shine some light.





don't mind my username, that was more than 10 years ago, I'm a different person now, amazing how people change ^_^

SvennoJ said:
dark_gh0st_b0y said:


I did not skip the explanation, I'm rather looking for one... I agree that these are factors that play a role yes but is that enough to change the overall picture? One is arrested for committing a crime.

You conclude that black people 6x crime rate comes from the police keeping an eye on them for minor crimes, but you skipped the "Official FBI stats say that 49% of murders have been committed by African Americans in 2015" and the second graph that shows a huge difference about the most serious crime that is murder.

Read this through all the way if you want answers
https://thescipub.com/pdf/10.3844/jssp.2019.1.10.pdf

It comes from here
https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

What they find is that black people are 3x more likely to be killed by police than white people while 1.3x less likely to be armed.
Location matters, not crime rates



There is a strong correlation between segregation and police killings
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0027968419301300
Racial residential segregation is a significant predictor of the magnitude of the Black-White disparity in fatal police shootings at the city level. Efforts to ameliorate the problem of fatal police violence must move beyond the individual level and consider the interaction between law enforcement officers and the neighborhoods that they police.

This is further explored in the study I linked above.

Terrill and Reisig also cited a study by Reiss and Bordua, which explained the ‘dirtbag-syndrome.’ This syndrome explained the behavior of police officers to place people into two categories. The first category included those viewed as deserving of punishment and the second category consisted of those undeserving of punishment. The people viewed as deserving to be punished are often called “dirtbags” by police officers (Reisig and Terrill, 2003:18). This study represents how when police officers enter neighborhoods that appear to be dangerous, they can already have a bias that some are deserving of police abuse, due to the area they reside. This presents a significant problem in how police officers perceive those who live in poor or dangerous neighborhoods. Often minorities are living in these poor areas, but not by choice.

It's not about crime rates, it's about perception, expectations, fear, stereotypes, racism.

African Americans across the nation can be subject to prejudice treatment by law enforcement officials. Negative stereotypes of African Americans have persisted for hundreds of years, which have affected the mass number of African Americans who have lost their lives due to police abuse. Policy implications are necessary for African Americans to be treated fairly as a citizen on the United States, rather than being viewed as a threat. Law enforcement officers must be held accountable for their actions and preventative measures must be taken to decrease the amount of police violence against African Americans.

Thanks for sharing! That explains a lot. 

Looks like there are huge differences between cities, and that makes the problem more evident. Racism must play a role in cities where crime rates are low but police killings high. At least it is easier to tackle the problem it if they start from specific cities.

Don't you think that perception, expectations and fear originate from African Americans committing more crimes, especially murders in the long term? I mean, if 50% of the murders traditionally come from the African Americans 13% minority, wouldn't the policemen be more scared for their lives and more biased, therefore more ready and less hesitating to kill someone if he is black?

Would the numbers be as bad if crime rates from African Americans were to decrease to average in the next 5-10 years or so?



don't mind my username, that was more than 10 years ago, I'm a different person now, amazing how people change ^_^

sethnintendo said:
Oneeee-Chan!!! said:

What does that have to do with what I wrote?
Even if there is no racial diversity in Japanese society, there should be diversity in the way of thinking.

Well they have no experience in diversity so they can't really judge USA.  Once I see Japanese and Chinese hugging it out then maybe I might take their considerations more serious.  Japanese also treat their low wage foreign workers that work in Japan like subhumans.  In my opinion they have no room to talk

I don't know how Japan treats low wage foreign workers, however a brother of a friend of ours has been living in Japan for decades. He married a Japanese woman and has two kids, yet stll experiences xenophobia against him. When the pandemic started some people were shouting at him to get out and go home while he was just on the way to work like everyone else. He is formerly Canadian. He loves the country (obviously) but does get confronted with xenophobia now and then.

Anyway that has nothing to do with this topic. However never really dealing with diversity and latent racism while growing up does make you less capable to understand the long ongoing situation. I grew up in the Netherlands with plenty of stereo types about Poles mainly (migrant workers), later refugees before it turned onto Muslims in general. My grandfather, great man, but his ideas about black people were typical for his generation. There was a lot of friction between him and my mother and her family (She was born in Indonesia). It's easy to slip into "Oh they probably did something wrong, deserved it" which is at the heart of the problems in the USA. The initial mindset while going into a confrontation together with fear.

Racism isn't just openly spewing hatred against other races. It can be very subtle and plenty people don't even realize their prejudice, be it against black people, religion or police. Do you treat your family members the same as any random stranger? The police should and its not easy.



dark_gh0st_b0y said:

Thanks for sharing! That explains a lot. 

Looks like there are huge differences between cities, and that makes the problem more evident. Racism must play a role in cities where crime rates are low but police killings high. At least it is easier to tackle the problem it if they start from specific cities.

Don't you think that perception, expectations and fear originate from African Americans committing more crimes, especially murders in the long term? I mean, if 50% of the murders traditionally come from the African Americans 13% minority, wouldn't the policemen be more scared for their lives and more biased, therefore more ready and less hesitating to kill someone if he is black?

Would the numbers be as bad if crime rates from African Americans were to decrease to average in the next 5-10 years or so?

The correlation they found is between segregation in cities and police brutality, not between crime rates and police brutality.

It's policing 'from outside' that seems to cause the main friction. The mindset going into an area perceived as dangerous, whether it be from xenophobia or higher crime rates in poverty stricken areas.

The perception, expectations and fear originate from painting black men as the bad guy for as long as I can remember. Who did you always see running from police in those cop shows "what you gonna do when they come for you" Cops. It's always the black guy who did it.


Do you have any source to suggest that Black people shoot at police more than other races?

All I can find is stats about murder victims
https://www.statista.com/statistics/251877/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-race-ethnicity-and-gender/
7400 Black victims vs 6000 white victims in 2019

Additional information on black/African American murder victims in the United States

According to male deaths by firearm-related injuries by ethnicity, the amount of black victims has fallen by over half since 1970 in proportion to the population. While this improvement has been welcomed, black males remained twice as likely to be the victim of a gun related death compared with white males.

This inequality has lead to a rise in political action and demonstration around what is perceived as inaction or ignorance over the issue by government and wider society. The high profile death of Trayvon Martin in Florida followed by the deaths at the hand of police Freddie Gray and Michael Brown served as the catalyst for such movements.
The wider issue of violence beyond murder also appears to have systemic correlations. The percentage of violent crime victims with socio-emotional problems by race demonstrates that black Americans experienced socio-emotional issues at a greater rate. Moreover, the issue of a higher exposure to violence for black Americans stretches to the schooling system where 8.4 percent of black children were threatened or injured with a weapon in 2013.

The issue starts from early age, on both sides.