Forums - Politics Discussion - Official Protest Thread

dark_gh0st_b0y said:
JWeinCom said:

You're wrong on pretty much every count. 

"It would make sense that the high criminality rates from African Americans must be the main source of racism, and police brutality to some extend." That's an explanation/conclusion right there. You've concluded that's the sensible reason that must be the case. If you'd like to revise that, that'd probably be smart, but that's not looking for an explanation, that's asserting one.

I on the other hand didn't conclude anything.  "It could also mean that law enforcement is heavier in black neighborhoods, meaning that black people committing minor crimes are more likely to be caught than a white person committing the same crime in a white neighborhood."  I did not say that this is a sensible proposition, or that it must be the case.  I simply offered it as a possible explanation.  "It could be."

I ignored the point on murders for several reasons.  First of all, I don't know what the chart is showing.  I don't know if those are homicide victims, or perpetrators.  As the data is from the CDC, and it says mortality on the bottom, I believe this chart is showing victims.  What this shows, as I interpret it, is that among black people who die between 15-34, a higher percentage are homicide victims compared to white people who die in the same age range.  Which is quite different than what you're saying.  But of course, I'm not sure where you got this chart from, or the context behind it. 

As for the FBI statistic, you did not source that at all, and as far as I could tell, that's wrong.  https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/expanded_homicide_data_table_3_murder_offenders_by_age_sex_and_race_2015.xls According to FBI data the actual number is 36.7.  Even if we assume that every murder where the race is not listed was committed by a black person, this would leave the ratio of black to white at about 2:1, and this would not come close to explaining the proportions in the previous chart that you claimed "hold up".  

Moreover, I don't see how this is at all relevant.  There are over ten million arrests per year statista.com/statistics/191261/number-of-arrests-for-all-offenses-in-the-us-since-1990/.  In 2015 there were 15,000 murders.  Even if every murderer were apprehended by police, apprehension for murder makes up such a small amount of police interactions that I don't see where it fits in to this conversation

Lastly, one is not arrested for committing a crime.  One MIGHT be arrested for SUSPICION of committing a crime.  That's a major difference.

Just for fun, I wondered why exactly you were posting charts from seemingly random years when data from more current years is readily available.  A quick google image search explains why.  These were the pictures that were posted on wikipedia. 

Really, the quality of research being done here does not show an honest effort to understand a complex issue, but an attempt to do a cursory search to confirm a position that was already held.

Thanks for the links. These numbers confirm my initial quote of 49% reported by FBI for 2015, since it is 53% of murders committed by African Americans if you exclude the unknowns, the overall picture does not change. The sample is big enough anyway.

You are right for the homicide chart, it is victims instead of murders! It still helps us to find out who kills who. If half the murders are committed by African Americans and they are also the most victims by far, then it seems they kill each other a lot. Pretty ironic for the BLM movement... : /

Oh what a discovery, it's google and wikipedia yes, time optimization you know? I don't wanna waste ages to reach the same statistics. I never did a deep research/analysis on the matter, nor did I claim to. I suggested a possible explanation, and since I am not American I'm looking for other opinions in order to better understand what's going on and shape mine. That's why my first line on the thread was "any comments on this chart?".

And yes I had an impression of how black crime rates are higher, judging from trending music videos and the rappers that ended up in jail...

"You're wrong on pretty much every count." and you are always right O.K.

And if crime figures that relate police and black people do not relate to the conversation by you, then what does? If you have something that relates more then share it.

Of course there are many factors that relate to the numbers we have, which you already mentioned and I agree, but the overall picture is too obvious to be altered by those. When a 13% of the population does 50% of the murders and has an equal prison population with the 72%, it is clear that in US there is a big issue with crime from African Americans and police is obviously handling it very very badly.



I am adding previous figures posted for the sake of completion. Maybe someone has something else and can shine some light.



"Thanks for the links. These numbers confirm my initial quote of 49% reported by FBI for 2015, since it is 53% of murders committed by African Americans if you exclude the unknowns, the overall picture does not change. The sample is big enough anyway."

So... the number you posted 49%.  Is actually not reported anywhere by the FBI... but if we ignore a huge chunk of the data it would be 53%... So the number you reported, which was not 53%, is actually right..? 

If you ignore the "unknown" category, you're limiting it to black and white which ignores huge categories of people.  Mixed race, hispanics who are non-black and not white etc. And you can't just ignore a third of the data set. A sample doesn't simply have to be large, it has to be representative, and if you just throw out 1/3 of the data, it might not be. You'd have to know a lot more about why the unknown category is unknown before you can alter the data like that. And of course, we're still nowhere near the 6:1 ratio of crime that you're claiming.  

Honestly, where did the 49% figure come from?

"You are right for the homicide chart, it is victims instead of murders! It still helps us to find out who kills who. If half the murders are committed by African Americans and they are also the most victims by far, then it seems they kill each other a lot. Pretty ironic for the BLM movement... : /"

You still don't seem to know what this chart actually shows.  It doesn't show how often the races are victims of homicide, it shows the prevalence of homicide as a cause of death in that race vs other potential causes of death, specifically among a narrow age range.  That's a completely different statistic.

In the graph you posted the bar for black people is 4x that for white people.  In actuality, they are victims about 1.2 times as often. I'd hardly say they're the most victims "by far".  You could have actually looked up the actual data really easily.

"Oh what a discovery, it's google and wikipedia yes, time optimization you know? I don't wanna waste ages to reach the same statistics. I never did a deep research/analysis on the matter, nor did I claim to. I suggested a possible explanation, and since I am not American I'm looking for other opinions in order to better understand what's going on and shape mine. That's why my first line on the thread was "any comments on this chart?"

Asking for comments does not mean you are actually looking into the issue.  It depends on how open you actually are to changing your position. I'm not saying that's what's going on here, but posting something inflammatory and saying "Golly gee, what do you guys think about this" is a pretty common form of trolling.

It took me literally less than a minute to google "FBI murder statistics".  I'm not expecting a thesis here, but why use decade old data from an unreliable source when recent data from official sources is readily available? The amount of effort you put into gathering the information makes me question how much you care about coming to a reasonable conclusion.

And yes I had an impression of how black crime rates are higher, judging from trending music videos and the rappers that ended up in jail...

Seriously? Music videos and rappers are evidence? Should I assume Christians have a higher rate of pedophilia because of all the Catholic priests that are pedophiles? If this is how you're making judgments, your epistemology is fundamentally flawed.

And if crime figures that relate police and black people do not relate to the conversation by you, then what does? If you have something that relates more then share it.

So... you don't have an explanation then of why the number of murders is relevant to the subject of police brutality? I honestly don't see why the murder rate would justify that.  I didn't make a claim, so I have nothing to bring up. You're the one who brought it up dude, it's your job to connect the dots.

Of course there are many factors that relate to the numbers we have, which you already mentioned and I agree, but the overall picture is too obvious to be altered by those. When a 13% of the population does 50% of the murders and has an equal prison population with the 72%, it is clear that in US there is a big issue with crime from African Americans and police is obviously handling it very very badly.

Yeah, there's a problem with crime and African Americans, either with enforcement or actually committing crimes... And this justifies the rate of cop killings you posted because..?

"You're wrong on pretty much every count." and you are always right O.K.

Doesn't change the fact that what you said was demonstrably wrong.  If I said something wrong, then feel free to point it out so I can adjust my position accordingly.

Last edited by JWeinCom - on 04 June 2020

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I dont get how we are making this so difficult, police using unnecessary force is bad... period
Racism is bad ... period

Thats it its that simple



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dark_gh0st_b0y said:

Thanks for sharing! That explains a lot. 

Looks like there are huge differences between cities, and that makes the problem more evident. Racism must play a role in cities where crime rates are low but police killings high. At least it is easier to tackle the problem it if they start from specific cities.

Don't you think that perception, expectations and fear originate from African Americans committing more crimes, especially murders in the long term? I mean, if 50% of the murders traditionally come from the African Americans 13% minority, wouldn't the policemen be more scared for their lives and more biased, therefore more ready and less hesitating to kill someone if he is black?

Would the numbers be as bad if crime rates from African Americans were to decrease to average in the next 5-10 years or so?

This issue is made more complicated by the fact that Black people are more likely to be convicted of crimes they didn't commit.  

https://research.msu.edu/innocent-african-americans-more-likely-to-be-wrongfully-convicted/

This isn't enough information to be conclusive about anything, but it could suggest that the numbers of black murderers is inflated.

Not to mention black people are more likely to be arrested for these kinds of crimes in the first place.  Another space for the numbers to be inflated.  

https://www.vox.com/2018/9/24/17896034/murder-crime-clearance-fbi-report

Almost 40% of all murders, we don't know who committed them at all.  They go unsolved.  There is a huge amount of gaps for the murder rates.  That 40% gap, means we only know for sure that 30% of murders in the US are commited by black people.  And we even know there's a few other gaps that mean that 30% might be inflated.  

I'm not saying this is evidence for sure that the murder rate isn't 50%, just that there are huge number of factors that mean that 50% could very well be worthless of a statistic.  



NightlyPoe said:
Ka-pi96 said:

Yeah, sure you can argue that the cop murdered George Floyd for reasons other than race. Although race probably was a pretty significant factor. Even if it can't be proven how events would have unfolded had he been white it's certainly fair to assume it would have went differently.

Although at the end of the day, does it even really matter? Police shouldn't be killing people like that full stop.

Didn't say otherwise.  But the protests are specific to the black population, not in general.  It's a specific grievance and there's an assumption that it applies here.

Though, again, why do you assume that it was probably a significant factor?  Where does that assumption come from outside of your own prejudices?

The protest are specific to the black population because of systemic racism. Black people make up a larger portion of the prison population and death by police percentage than they do as a total population and this is because they comitt more crimes. They committ more crimes because of systemic racism. BLMis like other groups that advocate for their kind. We have jewish groups that advocate for the jewish population, women groups that advocate for women's, catholic groups etc. But none ever goes after them for only advocating for their causes and people always attack BLM for advocating for black causes.



jason1637 said:
NightlyPoe said:

Didn't say otherwise.  But the protests are specific to the black population, not in general.  It's a specific grievance and there's an assumption that it applies here.

Though, again, why do you assume that it was probably a significant factor?  Where does that assumption come from outside of your own prejudices?

The protest are specific to the black population because of systemic racism. Black people make up a larger portion of the prison population and death by police percentage than they do as a total population and this is because they comitt more crimes. They committ more crimes because of systemic racism. BLMis like other groups that advocate for their kind. We have jewish groups that advocate for the jewish population, women groups that advocate for women's, catholic groups etc. But none ever goes after them for only advocating for their causes and people always attack BLM for advocating for black causes.

They do actually. And justifiably so in some cases, eg. that homophobic christian group, westbrough or something?



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Shoot. Shouldn't have blasted my blow on the other thread.

I'll simply say that I support the movement fully and hope for actual reforms with these cohersitive institutions.



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Mar1217 said:
Shoot. Shouldn't have blasted my blow on the other thread.

I'll simply say that I support the movement fully and hope for actual reforms with these cohersitive institutions.

Just copy it over here.  I have links to them in the OP so you can still access them.



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

As is inevitable when discussing police brutality, the argument has come up saying that there is not a systemic injustice or a racist system at the core of the disproportionate amount of brutality against the African American community, but it is instead simply a reflection of the fact that African Americans commit a disproportionate amount of crime, and as such have more interactions with police. While it is true that African Americans commit a disproportionate amount of crime, this alone does not suffice to prove this alternate hypothesis. The way I see it, there are two additional questions which must be answered:

1) Are the quantity of interactions with police sufficiently correlative to make this argument? That is to say, if the data regarding your alternate explanation does not show that there is a strong correlation between these two factors, your hypothesis falls apart.

2) Are there widespread and systemic injustices leading to this increase in crime rates? Again, if there are injustices leading to the disproportionate amount of crime committed by African Americans, you are simply denying the injustice by demonstrating that the injustice runs far deeper than originally claimed.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From the information I have seen, this hypothesis falls short on both accounts.

As SvennoJ has showed, levels of police violence doesn't show a strong correlation with the levels of violent crime. As such, this alternate hypothesis does not stand up to even correlative scrutiny:

Towards the second point, systemic injustices run very deep. This is far from an issue that ends at the street level. There are issues with the underfunding of schools in heavily minority communities and the school to prison pipeline, discrimination in the workplace and injustices regarding pay rates, insufficient social safety net programs, and deep flaws in the criminal justice system such as the heavy criminalization of minor offenses and the fact that prison time actually increases recidivism rates. The system is deeply flawed. And yes, many of these factors affect individuals outside of the African American community, however, the combination of all of these issues come together to both reflect the unique struggle of these communities and show how widespread the benefit of reforms can be.



I am all for advocating the cause of the less represented and am against injustice. The thing I disliked about the question is that corporations are using it to push a corporate image an I am really just sick of the way corporations and governments are using legitimate causes to further an agenda of political correctness when their actions don't match their message.

Here is a very interesting video I found on the question of PC, in French:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRaI5aIXKu0



Mar1217 said:
Shoot. Shouldn't have blasted my blow on the other thread.

I'll simply say that I support the movement fully and hope for actual reforms with these cohersitive institutions.

Just my two cents. The first thread should have been the official one. The second one should have been closed immediately. Now we have a third one...lots of conversation, continuity, and likely, traction, is lost in doing things this way. Well too late now though. 



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