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Forums - Sony Discussion - Unreal Engine 5 Announced + PS5 Demo

finalrpgfantasy said:
OTBWY said:

The Xbox Series X is more powerful, people are fooling themselves and clinging to the magic power of the SSD. Imagine the ridicule if the Xbox Series X was a little weaker and MS talked about the power of the SSD. 

It's more powerful but not a 50% difference in power like some people think (it's actually way less than that).  Do you actually expect the XSX to run a demo like this at full 4k60 fps and raytracing enabled?  

I think the XSX could run this better but we won't know how much as the demo was obviously capped. Could just as well be that the XSX could achieve a more stable 60fps for it to be capped at 30. But we don't know, which is why I said that I'd very much like to see it.



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OTBWY said:
Otter said:

Please show me one of those playable ps3/Ps4 tech demos.

This one comes to mind.

Emphasis on playable, unless you play games where all that's rendered is someones head, this is really not comparable to the UE5 demo.



That was fast. Backfire here.

https://developer-tech.com/news/2020/may/14/unreal-engine-5-demo-ps5-ray-tracing/

Demo didn’t have real ray tracing, 30 FPS, and dynamic resolution 1440p. Sony doesn’t even use UE for their top games unlike Xbox.

Let’s call it what it is: a PR stunt meant to dazzle fans with smoke and mirrors. Especially compared to what MS showed so far. It’s really weird Epic accepted their money instead of MS for the promo when they don’t even use it. 

❌ BANNED: Trolling (cont. behavior of similar nature across multiple threads) ~ CGI

Last edited by CGI-Quality - on 14 May 2020

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sales2099 said:

That was fast. Backfire here.

https://developer-tech.com/news/2020/may/14/unreal-engine-5-demo-ps5-ray-tracing/

Demo didn’t have real ray tracing, 30 FPS, and dynamic resolution 1440p. Sony doesn’t even use UE for their top games unlike Xbox.

Let’s call it what it is: a PR stunt meant to dazzle fans with smoke and mirrors. Especially compared to what MS showed so far. It’s really weird Epic accepted their money instead of MS for the promo when they don’t even use it. 

This isn't news? This has been known since the demo released via DF. No one said this was ray traced afaik.

EDIT: This article sounds like you wrote it, lol.

Last edited by TallSilhouette - on 14 May 2020

sales2099 said:
That was fast. Backfire here.

https://developer-tech.com/news/2020/may/14/unreal-engine-5-demo-ps5-ray-tracing/

Demo didn’t have real ray tracing, 30 FPS, and dynamic resolution. Sony doesn’t even use UE for their top games unlike Xbox.

Let’s call it what it is: a PR stunt meant to dazzle fans with smoke and mirrors. Especially compared to what MS showed so far.

First nobody said it has RT  nor dynamic resolution on the first place

second  it has GI which also a dynamic real time lighting and slightly cheaper than RT but has the same quality with RT when it comes to Lighting 

Also many third party are using Unreal, next gen will be the same, even sone Sony first party IP like Ben Studios using Unreal for their games. 

There is no PR stunt, and there is no smoke and mirror , it's running on real time,  gameplay demo on PS5 old devkit,  no CGI no trick and better then Microsoft Inside gaming when it comes showing how next gen look. All games that showed on inside Xbox is just old gen games and and no gameplay at all. 



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Otter said:
OTBWY said:

This one comes to mind.

Emphasis on playable, unless you play games where all that's rendered is someones head, this is really not comparable to the UE5 demo.

It has interaction, which is what it is. I don't expect anything more since that is a period where you hardly had many inhouse Sony playable demos. The other demo that was available and to my knowledge playable was (surprise) Tim Sweeney presenting and older UE engine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5X6_tuY3Wk Which if you ask me had Tim talking big as well.



sales2099 said:

That was fast. Backfire here.

https://developer-tech.com/news/2020/may/14/unreal-engine-5-demo-ps5-ray-tracing/

Demo didn’t have real ray tracing, 30 FPS, and dynamic resolution 1440p. Sony doesn’t even use UE for their top games unlike Xbox.

Let’s call it what it is: a PR stunt meant to dazzle fans with smoke and mirrors. Especially compared to what MS showed so far. It’s really weird Epic accepted their money instead of MS for the promo when they don’t even use it. 

❌ BANNED: Trolling (cont. behavior of similar nature across multiple threads) ~ CGI

This was know since the demo came out. And we don't even know if Sony paid for it or for any of the speech.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Machiavellian said:
chakkra said:

THANK YOU!

I´ve always thought that RT is a monumental waste of resources.

NO, RT is not a waste of time but right now the cost may still be to expensive.  Even in this demo you can see that its lighting doesn't hit everything like the point lights on the bug which did not cast a shadow.

Global Illumination -is- Ray Tracing. It uses bounce lighting.
It's just not hardware accelerated in this instance.

It's also a cheaper variant of lighting than what some more demanding "CGI-like" Ray Tracing lighting can achieve.

DonFerrari said:

We haven't been promissed full RT and I would say we aren't expecting that because the HW isn't capable enough for it.

Ray Tracing is something that has been progressively rolled into games as hardware becomes more capable, we had inklings of Ray Tracing even with some 6th gen games that used deferred renderers...
And it became even more pronounced during the 7th gen with baked ray-traced lighting in games, but we also started to see Global Illumination starting to gain traction with CryEngine powered games.

And 8th gen took it a little bit further again.

Fully hardware Ray Traced worlds are still probably a console generation or three away.

Oneeee-Chan!!! said:
kirby007 said:

well if this demo is using ground breaking solutions, why cant they go actually big dick and show this in native 4k?

If UE5 supports Series X,

Don't you wonder that MS didn't  show the tech demo off on an XseX?

Unreal Engine 5 is supported on all major platforms. (With the Switch in question for obvious reasons)

DonFerrari said:

Let's guess who would know better if this demo would be feasible on Xbox, Sweeney (who said it wouldn't, they would need to scaleback) or Aaron Greenberg that wants to do damage control? Hard choice right.

But when it is someone that isn't involved in PS5 development at all saying it is much weaker or that they won't have games, or that it wasn't show because it is overheating and that the release will be postponed those are to be believed right?

They are relying on Virtual Texturing, which is very storage bandwidth demanding, it's actually not the first time we have seen such a technology employed in games... Rage from the 7th gen is a good example, although it was dubbed "Mega texturing" at the time,

The storage speed of the Playstation 5 allows for higher quality variants of those textures to be pushed into Ram on a per-needs basis, the Xbox will be at a disadvantage in those scenarios, no doubt... But it will hold the edge in compute-heavy scenarios such as lighting.

JRPGfan said:

But Tim Sweeny did say that the same Tech demo wouldnt be possible on anything but the PS5 currently.
So its not made by Sony, but "for" the PS5.

Basically the load on the SSD to run this level of detail, with the 8k textures, ect would be too demanding for the XSX.
They would have to do work to get it running on XSX, and might have to lower quality of textures or amounts, because it couldnt load them as fast as the PS5 does.

It is possible on the PC.
The PC doesn't even need an SSD to do better, it's called a Ram Drive.

kirby007 said:

@DonFerrari stop the echochamber and look for his actual statement

The PlayStation 5 has a huge amount of GPU power, but also a greatly improved bandwidth for access to the storage medium. That is going to be really critical, "said Keighley. He explains the importance of this." It is one thing to be able to render everything in memory. However, it only becomes really impressive if you can render a huge world that is several gigabytes in size. In addition, the new M.2 Solid-State drive from Sony comes into play. "

According to Keighley, the SSD used by Sony is so fast that there is currently no model on the commercial market for sale that can compete with it. He even goes so far as to say that the PlayStation 5 is at the forefront of the PC market and will encourage them to use faster SSDs. That is highly unusual, normally consoles lag behind what is possible in PCs, partly because of the cost of a console.

I feel like that is just marketing hyperbole.
The PC still has faster graphics cards, faster CPU's, more ram... And you can RAID a heap of SSD's together to beat the PS5's storage speed.

I feel the PS5's SSD is like the last-gens "8GB GDDR5" buzzword that everyone clung to... Or the "Cell" before that, but people aren't really getting a grasp of it's true ramifications for gaming.

dane007 said:
Just a question, wouldnt next gen consoles help reduce the cost of using RT? The reason is because next gen consoles wont be able to use the full force of it, so developers will find ways to optimize it so that they can have while having other bells and whistle. My take we wont see the beenfit of proper rt until last year of next gen and early next next gen

Possibly. Developers will experiment with the technology and look at potential ways to reduce the cost of using it, that will take time though.
We also need to cast the shackles of the 8th gen away before that can properly happen.

OTBWY said:
finalrpgfantasy said:

And how different do you expect a Series X version will look like?  The difference in power between the PS5  and the XSX is not that big (except the SSD).  

The Xbox Series X is more powerful, people are fooling themselves and clinging to the magic power of the SSD. Imagine the ridicule if the Xbox Series X was a little weaker and MS talked about the power of the SSD. 

The Xbox Series X and Playstation 5 have strengths and weaknesses in different areas, which means... When it comes time to do some gaming, they will both have advantages and disadvantages in how the visuals are showcased.

I would imagine in an ideal scenario, where developers use the full extent of the hardware... The Xbox Series X should end up with superior lighting, resolution and possibly framerate, whilst the Playstation 5 will have the texturing advantage due to it's storage speed.

Both devices are pretty awesome pieces of kit, no doubt about it and neither is a bad purchasing decision.

HollyGamer said:

second  it has GI which also a dynamic real time lighting and slightly cheaper than RT but has the same quality with RT when it comes to Lighting 

Ray Tracing isn't just one method, it's multiple methods to approach the same problem. The Global Illumination in this Unreal Engine 5 demo -is- Ray Tracing, it's using bounce lighting, it's just using a few tricks to increase performance with a slight quality hit.

It's also not using the actual Ray Tracing hardware.

CryEngine has been doing this for years now. Ray Tracing isn't actually a new technology, it's a very old one.

HollyGamer said:

There is no PR stunt, and there is no smoke and mirror , it's running on real time,  gameplay demo on PS5 old devkit,  no CGI no trick and better then Microsoft Inside gaming when it comes showing how next gen look. All games that showed on inside Xbox is just old gen games and and no gameplay at all. 

It's more or less a demonstration of some "possible" effects that games might employ, not an accurate representation that all games on the Playstation 5 will only be 1440P@30fps. (And personally I think 1440P is fine and a big step up over 1080P, provided they dial up the visuals.)


Obviously I would prefer 4k and have it super sampled down to 1440P, but you know.. Tomato, Potato.






--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

The_Liquid_Laser said:
CGI-Quality said:

Yeah, that first sentence — that isn't stance you want to take. Don't repeat stuff like it.

Second, I never said it was a real game. I said it is the kind of fidelity you can expect from next gen. Clearly this isn't your field and you don't know what is on the way, which is fine. This reveal was key and many people in the industry understand that. 

Was this reveal meant for people in the industry or was it for gamers?  If this wasn't meant for gamers than I apologize. I was wrong.  I can see how this would be big for industry insiders.

On the other hand if this was meant for gamers, then I am the expert and you are wrong.  Gamers want games.  This wasn't a game.  It had nothing substantial for actual gamers.

The concepts of game engine and tech demos clearly elude you.



Pemalite said:
Machiavellian said:

NO, RT is not a waste of time but right now the cost may still be to expensive.  Even in this demo you can see that its lighting doesn't hit everything like the point lights on the bug which did not cast a shadow.

Global Illumination -is- Ray Tracing. It uses bounce lighting.
It's just not hardware accelerated in this instance.

It's also a cheaper variant of lighting than what some more demanding "CGI-like" Ray Tracing lighting can achieve.

DonFerrari said:

We haven't been promissed full RT and I would say we aren't expecting that because the HW isn't capable enough for it.

Ray Tracing is something that has been progressively rolled into games as hardware becomes more capable, we had inklings of Ray Tracing even with some 6th gen games that used deferred renderers...
And it became even more pronounced during the 7th gen with baked ray-traced lighting in games, but we also started to see Global Illumination starting to gain traction with CryEngine powered games.

And 8th gen took it a little bit further again.

Fully hardware Ray Traced worlds are still probably a console generation or three away.

Oneeee-Chan!!! said:

If UE5 supports Series X,

Don't you wonder that MS didn't  show the tech demo off on an XseX?

Unreal Engine 5 is supported on all major platforms. (With the Switch in question for obvious reasons)

DonFerrari said:

Let's guess who would know better if this demo would be feasible on Xbox, Sweeney (who said it wouldn't, they would need to scaleback) or Aaron Greenberg that wants to do damage control? Hard choice right.

But when it is someone that isn't involved in PS5 development at all saying it is much weaker or that they won't have games, or that it wasn't show because it is overheating and that the release will be postponed those are to be believed right?

They are relying on Virtual Texturing, which is very storage bandwidth demanding, it's actually not the first time we have seen such a technology employed in games... Rage from the 7th gen is a good example, although it was dubbed "Mega texturing" at the time,

The storage speed of the Playstation 5 allows for higher quality variants of those textures to be pushed into Ram on a per-needs basis, the Xbox will be at a disadvantage in those scenarios, no doubt... But it will hold the edge in compute-heavy scenarios such as lighting.

JRPGfan said:

But Tim Sweeny did say that the same Tech demo wouldnt be possible on anything but the PS5 currently.
So its not made by Sony, but "for" the PS5.

Basically the load on the SSD to run this level of detail, with the 8k textures, ect would be too demanding for the XSX.
They would have to do work to get it running on XSX, and might have to lower quality of textures or amounts, because it couldnt load them as fast as the PS5 does.

It is possible on the PC.
The PC doesn't even need an SSD to do better, it's called a Ram Drive.

kirby007 said:

@DonFerrari stop the echochamber and look for his actual statement

The PlayStation 5 has a huge amount of GPU power, but also a greatly improved bandwidth for access to the storage medium. That is going to be really critical, "said Keighley. He explains the importance of this." It is one thing to be able to render everything in memory. However, it only becomes really impressive if you can render a huge world that is several gigabytes in size. In addition, the new M.2 Solid-State drive from Sony comes into play. "

According to Keighley, the SSD used by Sony is so fast that there is currently no model on the commercial market for sale that can compete with it. He even goes so far as to say that the PlayStation 5 is at the forefront of the PC market and will encourage them to use faster SSDs. That is highly unusual, normally consoles lag behind what is possible in PCs, partly because of the cost of a console.

I feel like that is just marketing hyperbole.
The PC still has faster graphics cards, faster CPU's, more ram... And you can RAID a heap of SSD's together to beat the PS5's storage speed.

I feel the PS5's SSD is like the last-gens "8GB GDDR5" buzzword that everyone clung to... Or the "Cell" before that, but people aren't really getting a grasp of it's true ramifications for gaming.

dane007 said:
Just a question, wouldnt next gen consoles help reduce the cost of using RT? The reason is because next gen consoles wont be able to use the full force of it, so developers will find ways to optimize it so that they can have while having other bells and whistle. My take we wont see the beenfit of proper rt until last year of next gen and early next next gen

Possibly. Developers will experiment with the technology and look at potential ways to reduce the cost of using it, that will take time though.
We also need to cast the shackles of the 8th gen away before that can properly happen.

OTBWY said:

The Xbox Series X is more powerful, people are fooling themselves and clinging to the magic power of the SSD. Imagine the ridicule if the Xbox Series X was a little weaker and MS talked about the power of the SSD. 

The Xbox Series X and Playstation 5 have strengths and weaknesses in different areas, which means... When it comes time to do some gaming, they will both have advantages and disadvantages in how the visuals are showcased.

I would imagine in an ideal scenario, where developers use the full extent of the hardware... The Xbox Series X should end up with superior lighting, resolution and possibly framerate, whilst the Playstation 5 will have the texturing advantage due to it's storage speed.

Both devices are pretty awesome pieces of kit, no doubt about it and neither is a bad purchasing decision.

HollyGamer said:

second  it has GI which also a dynamic real time lighting and slightly cheaper than RT but has the same quality with RT when it comes to Lighting 

Ray Tracing isn't just one method, it's multiple methods to approach the same problem. The Global Illumination in this Unreal Engine 5 demo -is- Ray Tracing, it's using bounce lighting, it's just using a few tricks to increase performance with a slight quality hit.

It's also not using the actual Ray Tracing hardware.

CryEngine has been doing this for years now. Ray Tracing isn't actually a new technology, it's a very old one.

HollyGamer said:

There is no PR stunt, and there is no smoke and mirror , it's running on real time,  gameplay demo on PS5 old devkit,  no CGI no trick and better then Microsoft Inside gaming when it comes showing how next gen look. All games that showed on inside Xbox is just old gen games and and no gameplay at all. 

It's more or less a demonstration of some "possible" effects that games might employ, not an accurate representation that all games on the Playstation 5 will only be 1440P@30fps. (And personally I think 1440P is fine and a big step up over 1080P, provided they dial up the visuals.)


Obviously I would prefer 4k and have it super sampled down to 1440P, but you know.. Tomato, Potato.

Well you answered to a lot of people. So I'll just adress some points.

Yes you are right that RT and lighting have been improving a lot each gen. But my point was more on PS5 and XSX have put dedicated HW for RT on their chips but they haven't promissed full RT or anything of the like. The most we had was Mark Cerny saying they have implemented some techniques in some games and it didn't tax the system substancially. We will keep improving but RT isn't fully implemented yet.

About the Demo being feasible on PS5 and not on XSX yep, that specific demo isn't possible, but certainly they could make a different demo that would be a little lighter on the IO/SSD speed but increase on the GPU load to increase the pixel count or IQ of it. I'm just surprised that some people on the forum try to pretend the SSD difference is nothing more than "it will load a couple seconds faster". Each console have its strenght even if for graphics itself XSX is ahead while on performance and some effects the SSD will give PS5 a small edge.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."