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Forums - Politics Discussion - Official 2020 US Presidential Election Thread

Jaicee said:
KLXVER said:

He could have done a better job with the virus, sure, but putting the blame solely on him doesnt seem like a very productive argument either.

You act as if he's just another average American who bears merely an equal, but not greater, responsibility for the current covid situation in this country than the average citizen does. No, he's the President of the United States! No one is more responsible for the public policy of this country than that specific individual! He, as such, bears the primary responsibility for the current covid situation in this country. There is no getting around this.

Also, Kellyanne Conway has now tested positive for covid-19 as well.

Add another one to the list. Trump's campaign manager has tested positive. It's almost like ignoring guidelines from qualified professionals on minimizing risk was a stupid fucking idea.



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EricHiggin said:
Cyran said:

What do you think the definition of being prepared to defend the election would mean to a group that the FBI consider a extremist hate group?  Do you think a hate group can fairly judge when a election is under attack and when it would be appropriate to step in to defend it?  There a reason many people in the group now using it as there slogan.  The president of the united states should not be telling a hate group to do anything other then disband.

The best defense is trump was just throwing out none sense and there was no intent on his choice of language but the idea that telling a hate group to stand by is appropriate seem insane to me. You walking on dangerous waters when you telling a hate group to be ready to do anything.

Do you think the Prez condemning a hate group will really change their minds if they're that lost and can't reason? The Prez considers Antifa a terrorist group and yet his opponent and the FBI think, 'it's just an idea', so no big deal, no reason to condemn it. Isn't supremacy, just an idea as well?

When a certain group of individuals needs to be reminded not to cheer for the Presidents demise because he's ill, that should be all you need to know about hate groups, their beliefs, who they listen to, and how they react regardless. Seeing some of the reactions, clearly unreasonable people just don't listen or learn.

Lol, certain groups cheered for Obama to die and wished him pain and misery as well, so what.  Do not act like this is some political situation but instead just plain human nature.  People who really dislike someone do wish bad things on them no matter their political affiliation.  Now that we got that out of the way, you really did not answer the question.  Its not the Job of the president to care if hate groups going to suddenly listen to him and give him a hug.  His job is to show the American public that he doesn't discriminate between any type of hate group and condemn them all.  He failed to deliver this message.  Now after conversing with my conservative friends, they basically just dismiss it but then again, they were not the target market.  It was an easy question and you defending it I have no clue why.  As far as political strategy goes, it was a fub at worst causing him no ground during the debate and probably lost him some more votes. He basically gave Biden a gift.



Cyran said:
EricHiggin said:

Trump did have the question posed to him, yet you have to also ask yourself, why wasn't similar posed to Biden? Antifa got brought up, but a response of, 'it's just an idea' was acceptable? That ends it right there then, because supremacy is also just an idea. Either you hound both of them for straight answers or you allow both to get away without properly answering. If you don't, you're taking sides and that's not then a fair debate, which is why Trump pointed out he was seemingly debating with the moderator and not Biden at one point.

Biden himself isn't the same as the radical left, everyone knows this. The question about Biden is can he hold them off for 4 or 8 years, considering he's no Trump? Based on what they've done to Trump to try and get their way, will they really stand idly by and let Biden do his own thing? Maybe, maybe not, but are people willing to take that risk, because if they manage to get their way, it's not going to be what the people voted for.

Lastly, if covid doesn't hit Trump that hard overall, this mindset is going to make some of the undecided think twice about voting Dem. Having lefties, radical they may be, cheering for the demise of President during his illness, there's no way that doesn't put a sour taste in undecided voters mouths. For those that come across this, some will likely refrain from voting Dem like they were leaning, and some may decide to vote Rep. Hate is a powerful tool even when used as defense.

Wallace had a hard time asking Biden follow up because Trump kept wanting to respond to every thing Biden said that eventually Wallace just gave a question to Trump.  If you listen to the exchange before that question Wallace was trying to drill Biden on the riots but trump kept interrupting every time Biden said anything which made it hard to do follow up questions.

But in the end nothing that Biden or Wallace did made Trump give his answer and saying the answer I said is not difficult and I really don't see why he has such a hard time saying it. 

If the best defense for Trump answer is that he should not ever been ask the question then it seem like a very weak defense to me.

The entire debate was pretty weak. A few strong points for both here and there, but overall mostly excuses wasting everyone's time.



EricHiggin said:
Cyran said:

I think even if it symbolic it better to condemn a hate groups rather then offer language they find supportive.  Also if he had just answered the original question by saying "I condemn all hate groups including white supremist groups"  that would of been the end of it.  remember he was the one that asked for the specific group to condemn then failed to do so.  It not rocket science it just it seem every time Trump asked this question he have trouble making the one simple sentence it would require to end it.

As for the rest of your post this about Trump and Biden and I read Biden statement he wished for a quick and full recovery of trump and even pulled off the air negative Ads so where he stand on that topic is clear.

Trump did have the question posed to him, yet you have to also ask yourself, why wasn't similar posed to Biden? Antifa got brought up, but a response of, 'it's just an idea' was acceptable? That ends it right there then, because supremacy is also just an idea. Either you hound both of them for straight answers or you allow both to get away without properly answering. If you don't, you're taking sides and that's not then a fair debate, which is why Trump pointed out he was seemingly debating with the moderator and not Biden at one point.

Biden himself isn't the same as the radical left, everyone knows this. The question about Biden is can he hold them off for 4 or 8 years, considering he's no Trump? Based on what they've done to Trump to try and get their way, will they really stand idly by and let Biden do his own thing? Maybe, maybe not, but are people willing to take that risk, because if they manage to get their way, it's not going to be what the people voted for.

Lastly, if covid doesn't hit Trump that hard overall, this mindset is going to make some of the undecided think twice about voting Dem. Having lefties, radical they may be, cheering for the demise of President during his illness, there's no way that doesn't put a sour taste in undecided voters mouths. For those that come across this, some will likely refrain from voting Dem like they were leaning, and some may decide to vote Rep. Hate is a powerful tool even when used as defense.

I predicted this would be the narrative for people that support the President.  Oh look over here there are liberals wishing the President harm with CORVID, lets try and make that a political play for the terrible liberals.  Now reading your post, I see you already trying to go that route.  I willing to bet you this will fail.  Here is the thing, it really do not matter if there are a bunch of people who hate the president enough to wish his demise.  This isn't any different then the last administration when I seen many hate filled post for Obama and his wife.  That type of stuff isn't going to move votes.  When all is said and done as I have found people only care about the 2 candidates going for office, not the people who vote for them.  If anything getting CORVID is still a bad image for the president whether he intended it to happen or not.  These hail mary type of plays are long gone for any real impact.  Pretty much the majority who will vote has already made up their mind.



Machiavellian said:
EricHiggin said:

Do you think the Prez condemning a hate group will really change their minds if they're that lost and can't reason? The Prez considers Antifa a terrorist group and yet his opponent and the FBI think, 'it's just an idea', so no big deal, no reason to condemn it. Isn't supremacy, just an idea as well?

When a certain group of individuals needs to be reminded not to cheer for the Presidents demise because he's ill, that should be all you need to know about hate groups, their beliefs, who they listen to, and how they react regardless. Seeing some of the reactions, clearly unreasonable people just don't listen or learn.

Lol, certain groups cheered for Obama to die and wished him pain and misery as well, so what.  Do not act like this is some political situation but instead just plain human nature.  People who really dislike someone do wish bad things on them no matter their political affiliation.  Now that we got that out of the way, you really did not answer the question.  Its not the Job of the president to care if hate groups going to suddenly listen to him and give him a hug.  His job is to show the American public that he doesn't discriminate between any type of hate group and condemn them all.  He failed to deliver this message.  Now after conversing with my conservative friends, they basically just dismiss it but then again, they were not the target market.  It was an easy question and you defending it I have no clue why.  As far as political strategy goes, it was a fub at worst causing him no ground during the debate and probably lost him some more votes. He basically gave Biden a gift.

I assume the point was they wished this because he was black? Wasn't the big reason to vote for Obama because he was black? So basically vote for the victim based on (insert reason here), like race? Or health in Trumps case? I can see why it would work for both. Obama did get two full terms.

Defending it. Always defending. Never just explaining. If Trump had said and did exactly what they wanted, it wouldn't have mattered for the most part, that's why. The media still would have explained why he's full of crap afterwards, as they did go after him because they've been pushing a racism narrative. Trumps people can also could explain he's already made his stance clear afterwards, as they have. If Trump or the moderator had then gone after Biden to do the same thing for Antifa, do you really think Biden wouldn't have made the, 'it's just an idea' point? Would that have been brought up and shamed or would it be swept under the rug like most things for him? Why should Trump cater to the moderator while his equal opponent doesn't have to? Why would that only benefit Biden? If it's because people don't care about equality and fairness, then there's little reason to be upset about what Trump said.

I do think Trump could have answered it better, but I wouldn't assume it was a deal breaker. Biden could've explained his stance on Antifa better, but I wouldn't assume that was a deal breaker either. Both missed some great opportunities and both had a few wins. The debate overall sucked.



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Machiavellian said:
EricHiggin said:

Trump did have the question posed to him, yet you have to also ask yourself, why wasn't similar posed to Biden? Antifa got brought up, but a response of, 'it's just an idea' was acceptable? That ends it right there then, because supremacy is also just an idea. Either you hound both of them for straight answers or you allow both to get away without properly answering. If you don't, you're taking sides and that's not then a fair debate, which is why Trump pointed out he was seemingly debating with the moderator and not Biden at one point.

Biden himself isn't the same as the radical left, everyone knows this. The question about Biden is can he hold them off for 4 or 8 years, considering he's no Trump? Based on what they've done to Trump to try and get their way, will they really stand idly by and let Biden do his own thing? Maybe, maybe not, but are people willing to take that risk, because if they manage to get their way, it's not going to be what the people voted for.

Lastly, if covid doesn't hit Trump that hard overall, this mindset is going to make some of the undecided think twice about voting Dem. Having lefties, radical they may be, cheering for the demise of President during his illness, there's no way that doesn't put a sour taste in undecided voters mouths. For those that come across this, some will likely refrain from voting Dem like they were leaning, and some may decide to vote Rep. Hate is a powerful tool even when used as defense.

I predicted this would be the narrative for people that support the President.  Oh look over here there are liberals wishing the President harm with CORVID, lets try and make that a political play for the terrible liberals.  Now reading your post, I see you already trying to go that route.  I willing to bet you this will fail.  Here is the thing, it really do not matter if there are a bunch of people who hate the president enough to wish his demise.  This isn't any different then the last administration when I seen many hate filled post for Obama and his wife.  That type of stuff isn't going to move votes.  When all is said and done as I have found people only care about the 2 candidates going for office, not the people who vote for them.  If anything getting CORVID is still a bad image for the president whether he intended it to happen or not.  These hail mary type of plays are long gone for any real impact.  Pretty much the majority who will vote has already made up their mind.

EricHiggin said:
Machiavellian said:

Lol, certain groups cheered for Obama to die and wished him pain and misery as well, so what.  Do not act like this is some political situation but instead just plain human nature.  People who really dislike someone do wish bad things on them no matter their political affiliation. 

I assume the point was they wished this because he was black? Wasn't the big reason to vote for Obama because he was black? So basically vote for the victim based on (insert reason here), like race? Or health in Trumps case? I can see why it would work for both. Obama did get two full terms.

Guess this makes us even.

I don't know what Trump will run with assuming a recovery. Just pointing out possibilities.



EricHiggin said:
Machiavellian said:

Lol, certain groups cheered for Obama to die and wished him pain and misery as well, so what.  Do not act like this is some political situation but instead just plain human nature.  People who really dislike someone do wish bad things on them no matter their political affiliation.  Now that we got that out of the way, you really did not answer the question.  Its not the Job of the president to care if hate groups going to suddenly listen to him and give him a hug.  His job is to show the American public that he doesn't discriminate between any type of hate group and condemn them all.  He failed to deliver this message.  Now after conversing with my conservative friends, they basically just dismiss it but then again, they were not the target market.  It was an easy question and you defending it I have no clue why.  As far as political strategy goes, it was a fub at worst causing him no ground during the debate and probably lost him some more votes. He basically gave Biden a gift.

I assume the point was they wished this because he was black? Wasn't the big reason to vote for Obama because he was black? So basically vote for the victim based on (insert reason here), like race? Or health in Trumps case? I can see why it would work for both. Obama did get two full terms.

Defending it. Always defending. Never just explaining. If Trump had said and did exactly what they wanted, it wouldn't have mattered for the most part, that's why. The media still would have explained why he's full of crap afterwards, as they did go after him because they've been pushing a racism narrative. Trumps people can also could explain he's already made his stance clear afterwards, as they have. If Trump or the moderator had then gone after Biden to do the same thing for Antifa, do you really think Biden wouldn't have made the, 'it's just an idea' point? Would that have been brought up and shamed or would it be swept under the rug like most things for him? Why should Trump cater to the moderator while his equal opponent doesn't have to? Why would that only benefit Biden? If it's because people don't care about equality and fairness, then there's little reason to be upset about what Trump said.

I do think Trump could have answered it better, but I wouldn't assume it was a deal breaker. Biden could've explained his stance on Antifa better, but I wouldn't assume that was a deal breaker either. Both missed some great opportunities and both had a few wins. The debate overall sucked.

Well its a deal breaker in that he is now in CORVID lockdown for 2 weeks with 4 to go.  No rallies, no debates and the last thing he said getting played not to his benefit.  The thing is people hating a president never changes the people who support a president.  People wishing for Trump demise isn't going to suddenly turn a large group that was going to vote for Biden into Trump loving citizens.  That's a fantasy, what will change people minds is if they lose confidence in the person they are voting for.  

What I find interesting is this mod blaming you are doing.  Oh he mod asked the president a question so why should he cater to him.  Not sure where this is coming from but mod blaming for a question the president could not give a concise answer to the viewing public is still the President failure.  Trying to blame the mod for asking him a question he could not answer successfully just makes the President look bad.  I have seen this line of thinking from other conservatives but it doesn't hold water.  The president is not in the debate to please the mod, he is there to answer questions and debate his opponent.  The thing is the Mod gave Trump a very easy question and it should have been right in his hip pocket to answer with conviction.  You are trying to turn the question around as if it was some huge tough question where it could trip up any person.  Condemning any hate group just like he condemns Antifa and BLM he should not have to even think about it.

I agree the debate sucked but that was mostly due to all the interruptions and talking out of turn.  Talking over the mod and basically making an ass of himself was mostly done by the President.  Either way its over, I agree the impact will be slight, but I also believe the President gained no ground which for him is a lost especially now.



Machiavellian said:
EricHiggin said:

I assume the point was they wished this because he was black? Wasn't the big reason to vote for Obama because he was black? So basically vote for the victim based on (insert reason here), like race? Or health in Trumps case? I can see why it would work for both. Obama did get two full terms.

Defending it. Always defending. Never just explaining. If Trump had said and did exactly what they wanted, it wouldn't have mattered for the most part, that's why. The media still would have explained why he's full of crap afterwards, as they did go after him because they've been pushing a racism narrative. Trumps people can also could explain he's already made his stance clear afterwards, as they have. If Trump or the moderator had then gone after Biden to do the same thing for Antifa, do you really think Biden wouldn't have made the, 'it's just an idea' point? Would that have been brought up and shamed or would it be swept under the rug like most things for him? Why should Trump cater to the moderator while his equal opponent doesn't have to? Why would that only benefit Biden? If it's because people don't care about equality and fairness, then there's little reason to be upset about what Trump said.

I do think Trump could have answered it better, but I wouldn't assume it was a deal breaker. Biden could've explained his stance on Antifa better, but I wouldn't assume that was a deal breaker either. Both missed some great opportunities and both had a few wins. The debate overall sucked.

Well its a deal breaker in that he is now in CORVID lockdown for 2 weeks with 4 to go.  No rallies, no debates and the last thing he said getting played not to his benefit.  The thing is people hating a president never changes the people who support a president.  People wishing for Trump demise isn't going to suddenly turn a large group that was going to vote for Biden into Trump loving citizens.  That's a fantasy, what will change people minds is if they lose confidence in the person they are voting for.  

What I find interesting is this mod blaming you are doing.  Oh he mod asked the president a question so why should he cater to him.  Not sure where this is coming from but mod blaming for a question the president could not give a concise answer to the viewing public is still the President failure.  Trying to blame the mod for asking him a question he could not answer successfully just makes the President look bad.  I have seen this line of thinking from other conservatives but it doesn't hold water.  The president is not in the debate to please the mod, he is there to answer questions and debate his opponent.  The thing is the Mod gave Trump a very easy question and it should have been right in his hip pocket to answer with conviction.  You are trying to turn the question around as if it was some huge tough question where it could trip up any person.  Condemning any hate group just like he condemns Antifa and BLM he should not have to even think about it.

I agree the debate sucked but that was mostly due to all the interruptions and talking out of turn.  Talking over the mod and basically making an ass of himself was mostly done by the President.  Either way its over, I agree the impact will be slight, but I also believe the President gained no ground which for him is a lost especially now.

Undecided voters are a small group apparently. If you're undecided now, what else will it take to cause you to decide or refrain? The little things?

The moderator is there to ask useful questions on behalf of the people. Trump and Biden are basically just two equal everyday candidates at that point. If the mod does a terrible job, then it's a problem, just like if the Prez does a terrible job, because they are there on behalf of the people.

Either the mod allows rebuttals and bickering or doesn't. If you will or won't, you need to make that clear and don't change on the fly. You create sections with specific rules if you want an assortment. You also don't side with either candidate at any point. If the candidates get out of line you put your foot down immediately. If you can't do that you've failed the people. That's why the first debate was terrible and why there are 3 debates with different mods.



It's 12 mins, but it looks as they both interpreted things differently like people have. Good to see points from both sides, especially when both sides can see and understand how the other side is viewing it. I'd say a pretty decent take on the debate.



KLXVER said:
Runa216 said:

How many times do I have to explain to people like you: the real world doesn't work in binary states. It's not a matter of 'tolerate everything or tolerate nothing'. you can 'tolerate' people being gay, but that is NOT the same as permission for them to be pedophilic. I know it's an extreme example, but it gets the point across very well. There's a world of difference between 'being conservative' (which in and of itself is fine), and being Donald Trump (who pushes conspiracy theories, and through his position of power has done real damage to the world around him.) 

The only way your narrative works is if there's no realistic middle ground. cut that out. That's not how the real world works. I, as a progressive, believe in women's rights, the BLM movement, Anti-fascism, the LGBT+ community, and all that other progressive nonsense. That does not mean I believe in some weird world where women dominate and men are all pets, or that ONLY black lives matter, or that I support the more extreme variants on Antifa, or that the most skewed and dangerous sexualities (like pedo or necro) are okay. You can't just turn around and act like being tolerant of religion or gender or sexuality or race is the same as saying 'everything is permitted, and nothing any of these minorities do is ever wrong'. 

You've got the whole world wrong and you're doing both yourself and the discussion a disservice by reducing the entire argument to all or nothing binary. Cut that out. Seriously. 

Well maybe if you said that once in a while, it would be easier to look at you as a person and not some liberal robot. Maybe criticize BLM and Antifa when they are burning down cities and looting. And not shifting the blame away from them. I support equality for all races and genders. I support the LGBTQ community and I think feminism is fine, but I will absolutely call them out when they cross the line. Lines like bullying people who doesnt see everything 100% their way. Like J.K. Rowling. She has an opinion and people should either accept that or try to educate her if they think she is wrong. Not cancel her and call her horrific names. Im never solely on one side. Although it may seem like it here since Im mostly talking to people who doesnt agree with me on many things.

Well at least you did show me another side of you now, so that is appreciated.

That's the thing, I've BEEN saying this since the beginning and didn't really feel the need to clarify until recently because anyone who uses common sense should understand the base concept that not everything is binary. I felt it should be pretty obvious that supporting something doesn't mean I support the worst of it or do so regardless of external or internal factors. 

And I won't condemn BLM or Antifa because neither of those movements are centralized or run by a single group or individual. Hating BLM because there has been damage done on BLM protestors is like hating subway because JAred's a pedo. The Antifa and BLM protestors who are doing damage are the outliers, not the primary folks responsible. Fullstop. I am not going to condemn a group because a small group is representing them poorly. 

Just like I'm not going to hate gay people because some gay folks are super flamboyant and obnoxious. 

Just like I'm not going to hate feminists because a small subset of feminists also hate men. 

Just like I'm not going to hate muslims because extremists do terrorism (This is true of ALL religions)

Just like I'm not going to hate women for whatever reason people supposedly hate women.

Just like I'm not going to hate black or hispanic or asian people when one of them commits a crime.

Every single one of these examples, up to and including your stance on BLM and Antifa, are examples of binary extremes. a few outliers did a bad thing and that justifies your hatred for the whole group, that predetermined hatred based on politics. It's not based on reality or the numbers, it's an excuse. Everyone does it, which is why the term 'everyone's a little bit racist sometimes' is a thing (Thank you Avenue Q). The key is to identify it and fix it. Everyone makes mistakes, but a person's character determines how they respond to it, how they learn from it, and how they grow afterwards. 

Until you accept that you don't hate BLM, you just hate the tiny pockets of people making it look bad, I am not convinced there's much room for a constructive discussion on the matter. Until you accept that Antifa isn't some terrorist group but the concept of being anti-fascism, I fear the same. Just because someone does something bad in the name of Antifa doesn't make Antifa bad any more than how a few white dudes with AK-47s shooting up a gay bar in the name of jesus makes Christianity bad. 



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